Youtubers and kid fans bypassing gambling laws - Valve's CS:GO skins in trouble

[Shadoweye]

849.04 Permitting minors and persons under guardianship to gamble. The proprietor, owner, or keeper of any E. O., keno or pool table, or billiard table, wheel of fortune, or other game of chance kept for the purpose of betting, who willfully and knowingly allows a minor or person who is mentally incompetent or under guardianship to play at such game or to bet on such game of chance; or whoever aids or abets or otherwise encourages such playing or betting of any money or other valuable thing upon the result of such game of chance by a minor or person who is mentally incompetent or under guardianship, commits a felony of the third degree.

849.11 Plays at games of chance by lot. Whoever sets up, promotes or plays at any game of chance by lot or with dice, cards, numbers, hazards or any other gambling device whatever for, or for the disposal of money or other thing of value or under the pretext of a sale, gift or delivery thereof, or for any right, share or interest therein, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Florida State Statute regarding gambling and underage gambling.

[Coombs]

Florida State Statute regarding gambling and underage gambling.

It's plain as day that this is what is happening, and yet nothing will be done about it.

[Shadoweye]

It's plain as day that this is what is happening, and yet nothing will be done about it.

I wouldnt say that... things like this will take time to develop. Evidence has already been produced, and that evidence will need to find its way into the hands of the proper people for individuals to get what is coming to them. I know for tmartn, he has hidden all the incriminating videos, disabled all his video comments and like/dislike buttons and will be loading a video this evening discussing the situation. as for prosyn, he has done nothing... While Tmartn is in full damage control mode and attempting to hide evidence... well.... the internet has his videos cached, and they are still out there. Things like this will take time to develop, and i see many fines, if not jail time for him and his VP.

[cFortyfive]

I wouldnt say that... things like this will take time to develop. Evidence has already been produced, and that evidence will need to find its way into the hands of the proper people for individuals to get what is coming to them. I know for tmartn, he has hidden all the incriminating videos, disabled all his video comments and like/dislike buttons and will be loading a video this evening discussing the situation. as for prosyn, he has done nothing... While Tmartn is in full damage control mode and attempting to hide evidence... well.... the internet has his videos cached, and they are still out there. Things like this will take time to develop, and i see many fines, if not jail time for him and his VP.

Personally I doubt that. I don't think those cases already have the right level to get governmental attention at this point. Obviously the industry as a whole will and already got some attention at least.

[Utinil]

I fail to see how Valve is any more legally responsible for what third party sites do than Bicycle is responsible for all the illegal card games that happen with their decks.

[TITAN308]

I'm still curious how Overwatch gets around gambling laws with their $1.99 per loot box. Its like a game of chance to actually get something.

[Shadoweye]

I'm still curious how Overwatch gets around gambling laws with their $1.99 per loot box. Its like a game of chance to actually get something.

Because, as far as i am aware, items like that cant not be taken out of game and resold for money. There in lies the difference.

[Coombs]

I'm still curious how Overwatch gets around gambling laws with their $1.99 per loot box. Its like a game of chance to actually get something.

You can't win money from it or sell the items for cash. Which is almost worse. Paying for a slot machine that just gets prettier.

[TITAN308]

You can't win money from it or sell the items for cash. Which is almost worse. Paying for a slot machine that just gets prettier.

What I was thinking.

A game of chance, that you never win. LOL

[Tryuk]

Because, as far as i am aware, items like that cant not be taken out of game and resold for money. There in lies the difference.

Can CS:GO skins be legally traded in for cash other than money in a steam account? If not, does steam money actually count as cash, or does Valve cover their collective asses there?

Edit: Just checked their legal stuff, steam wallet funds don't count as real money (they have no value outside of steam)

[Shadoweye]

Can CS:GO skins be legally traded in for cash other than money in a steam account? If not, does steam money actually count as cash, or does Valve cover their collective asses there?

Edit: Just checked their legal stuff, steam wallet funds don't count as real money (they have no value outside of steam)

There are ways for people to sell their steam wallets for cash. Very easy ways at that.

[Deleted]

Can CS:GO skins be legally traded in for cash other than money in a steam account? If not, does steam money actually count as cash, or does Valve cover their collective asses there?

Yes. Irrelevant.

A. Buy keys - which also generate skins if open crates - on Steam
B. Trade keys and skins between accounts, including bot accounts, via Steam
C. Buy and trade items via Steam Wallet (money input) on Steam Community Market (money prices) with restrictions
D. Steam API for third party websites enabling game inventory viewing, inter-account trade offers (see B) and Steam Community Market prices.

D is what enables liquid brokers, gambling sites and non-Valve external economy to access A through C. The sites take a cut either directly (currency) or indirectly (items). Brokers are an example of the former, enabling you to easily sell skins for cash and they keep a fee per transaction.

However, even if D did not exist, players can and sometimes do directly sell with real money to each other because anyone can freely trade items on Steam, i.e. B, in order to avoid broker fees. There are places like Reddit or dedicated forums where people sell directly with each other, typically for large collections or to dump stock.

So, it doesn't matter if Valve attempts to cover its ass with A and C when it allows B and D!

In addition, C can be easily bypassed by using A+B, for example, that is just buy keys and then trade the keys with a broker or a person directly for cash.

In short, skins == irl. cash in the virtual economy created by Valve.

[Deleted]

Yes. Irrelevant.

A. Buy keys - which also generate skins if open crates - on Steam
B. Trade keys and skins between accounts, including bot accounts, via Steam
C. Buy and trade items via Steam Wallet (money input) on Steam Community Market (money prices) with restrictions
D. Steam API for third party websites enabling game inventory viewing, inter-account trade offers (see B) and Steam Community Market prices.

D is what enables liquid brokers, gambling sites and non-Valve external economy to access A through C. The sites take a cut either directly (currency) or indirectly (items). Brokers are an example of the former, enabling you to easily sell skins for cash and they keep a fee per transaction.

However, even if D did not exist, players can and sometimes do directly sell with real money to each other because anyone can freely trade items on Steam, i.e. B, in order to avoid broker fees. There are places like Reddit or dedicated forums where people sell directly with each other, typically for large collections or to dump stock.

So, it doesn't matter if Valve attempts to cover its ass with A and C when it allows B and D!

In addition, C can be easily bypassed by using A+B, for example, that is just buy keys and then trade the keys with a broker or a person directly for cash.

In short, skins == irl. cash in the virtual economy created by Valve.

The one thing you're not mentioning is that Valve doesn't have any involvement in turning skins to $$$. It's not exactly the same but by that logic most of WoW would be gambling because if i get lucky i can make a lot of gold which i can then exchange for $$$. From a legal standpoint Valve should be fine if i understand things correctly. The third party websites on the other hand, well lube demand is gonna go up.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Because, as far as i am aware, items like that cant not be taken out of game and resold for money. There in lies the difference.

Pretty much.

But when it comes to valve I wonder if they can actually make a case to get them. Frankly I think that the skin deal is essentially equal to selling casino token (afaik not illegal either). That people attribute value to them is out of valves hand. While you could probably argue that the nature is a bit different and you have to gamble away your money to obtain these tokens, the case gets thinner there. The biggest case here is definitely on the gambling and reselling sites. We will see I guess.

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The one thing you're not mentioning is that Valve doesn't have any involvement in turning skins to $$$. It's not exactly the same but by that logic most of WoW would be gambling because if i get lucky i can make a lot of gold which i can then exchange for $$$. From a legal standpoint Valve should be fine if i understand things correctly. The third party websites on the other hand, well lube demand is gonna go up.

Well that is afaik the reason why selling your wow account is against the terms of service.

[Deleted]

Pretty much.

But when it comes to valve I wonder if they can actually make a case to get them. Frankly I think that the skin deal is essentially equal to selling casino token (afaik not illegal either). That people attribute value to them is out of valves hand. While you could probably argue that the nature is a bit different and you have to gamble away your money to obtain these tokens, the case gets thinner there. The biggest case here is definitely on the gambling and reselling sites. We will see I guess.

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Well that is afaik the reason why selling your wow account is against the terms of service.

Here's some excerpts from the steam subscriber agreement.

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services”; the rights to access and/or use any Contents and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."

......

You may not use the Content and Services for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions, and to make personal, non-commercial use of your Subscriptions, except as otherwise permitted by this Agreement or applicable Subscription Terms. Except as otherwise permitted under this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use), or under applicable law notwithstanding these restrictions, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, publish, distribute, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Content and Services or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

You are entitled to use the Content and Services for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Content and Services to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Content and Services to others without the prior written consent of Valve, except to the extent expressly permitted elsewhere in this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use);

So it's against Valve's http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ as well. Now the thing is Valve is in no way obligated to police this and neither is Blizzard. For example acount sharing is against the WoW ToS as well yet no one really cares about it.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Thanks, now I don't have to read it :P.

Well then Valve should probably start to police it's own service. After all they have a billion dollar black market style economy going there and they certainly don't look like they have any issues with it so far. If they want to appear genuine they'd actually have to curate their own store, for once at least.

[Shadoweye]

Thanks, now I don't have to read it :P.

Well then Valve should probably start to police it's own service. After all they have a billion dollar black market style economy going there and they certainly don't look like they have any issues with it so far. If they want to appear genuine they'd actually have to curate their own store, for once at least.

No doubt, which is why the lawsuit against them, for allowing this unregulated market to flourish, is happening. This will hopefully help wrangle in the problem, but the other main issue is the fact that Trevor and Tom were promoting gambling on their site, without disclosure or any type of age restriction mechanism in place that allowed their many underage views to engage in. This activity can lead to addiction and ruin lives. For me, that is the main issue.

[Cosmic Janitor]

No doubt, which is why the lawsuit against them, for allowing this unregulated market to flourish, is happening. This will hopefully help wrangle in the problem, but the other main issue is the fact that Trevor and Tom were promoting gambling on their site, without disclosure or any type of age restriction mechanism in place that allowed their many underage views to engage in. This activity can lead to addiction and ruin lives. For me, that is the main issue.

Yes I agree. The video game attorney guy already filed a report with those guys that make the rules (FTC?) for that thankfully. Given how they cracked down on him and machinema before this should certainly lead at least somewhere.

[Shadoweye]

https://twitter.com/Eight_Thoughts/s...29873845465090

This could be interesting too... cant wait to see the evidence on this.

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http://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-stri...n-prosyndicate

http://www.pcgamer.com/tmartn-apolog...buffer-pcgamer

Here is some updated information for those of you out there.

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Another update.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3177...Thomas-Cassell

A lawsuit naming CSGO Lotto, Martin, Cassell, and Valve has been filed in Florida.