Will We See Difficult Dungeons on Launch?

[Taeldorian]

/slowclap

Congratulations, you only completely missed the point.

Please go back and re-read what exactly I quoted.

You responded to someone saying the dungeons are challenging by using the excuse of "rose tinted glasses". All I'm saying is that's wrong. They were challenging. There were complaints across the board about them being challenging so using the rose tinted glasses excuse is ridiculous. Sure, the guy you quoted had a bit of hyperbole in that post but I'm arguing about the "rose tinted glasses" you were speaking about. Surely they were hard or at least posed a challenge for some people if they were nerfed after the mountains of complaints they got, or maybe that's just the rose tinted glasses talking.

[PosPosPos]

You responded to someone saying the dungeons are challenging by using the excuse of "rose tinted glasses". All I'm saying is that's wrong. They were challenging. There were complaints across the board about them being challenging so using the rose tinted glasses excuse is ridiculous. Sure, the guy you quoted had a bit of hyperbole in that post but I'm arguing about the "rose tinted glasses" you were speaking about. Surely they were hard or at least posed a challenge for some people if they were nerfed after the mountains of complaints they got, or maybe that's just the rose tinted glasses talking.

"Rose tinted glasses" is used to describe something that is subjective and not objective - Blizzard themselves have made the position that cataclysm was overtuned, so there's no need to argue on that part because it's objective at that point.

However, asserting that "the difficulty brought communities together" is something that is unsubstantiated. Comprehension, context and nuance is obviously far beyond you. You should also take the time to go read up on what rose tinted glasses mean, because it's obvious you don't know what they mean.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/rose-tinted+glasses
if someone looks at something through rose-tinted glasses, they see only the pleasant parts of it She has always looked at life through rose-tinted glasses.

Keywords: "they only see the pleasant parts of it".

[Unholypriest]

Sure you can wipe if people don't know how to interrupt, move out of stuff or the group pulls too much. But thats standard stuff, its not hard, if people do their thing they are supposed to do.

[PosPosPos]

Sure you can wipe if people don't know how to interrupt, move out of stuff or the group pulls too much. But thats standard stuff, its not hard, if people do their thing they are supposed to do.

That pretty much describes all content, really. Your gross over-generalization only detracts from actual and candid discussion when trying to evaluate and identify what is a difficult dungeon(or content in general).

[Sevyvia]

The answer is always going to be relative. Will the dungeons seem difficult at first because people have no experience with them and are used to wildly outgearing 5mans? Yes. Definitely. But this is, as ever, an issue of people being idiots, not really one of dungeon difficulty. Past that, though I have no beta access, I seriously doubt post-TBC Blizzard are even aware of how to make a difficult but still rewarding and doable 5man.

[Sencha]

Sure you can wipe if people don't know how to interrupt, move out of stuff or the group pulls too much. But thats standard stuff, its not hard, if people do their thing they are supposed to do.

Fully agree.

Most pugs stay in the fire (thanks to LFR) and don't even interrupt. Then they complain it's tooooo hard. And Blizzard reduces the difficulty because they are too scared to lose one sub.

Casuals are a plague to the game.

[Coldvibes]

On Beta, can confirm everything up to Mythic + 3 is a walk in the park.

[Krieger]

Hard dungeons are fun, and actually make players better, instead of conditioning them to be comfortable with faceroll, zerging. Even "Normal" dungeons should have an underlying difficulty and learning curve. Make Heroic, Heroic Again!

In my opinion, we need to see more dungeons being launched throughout the expansion. 1. Progresses the story and immerses players in it 2. Helps players get a bit better gear, without over-saturating like Timeless or Tanaan

Dungeons like ZG/ZA Revamps, End Time, ICC Dungeons. Although they need to have a barrier of entry. "Catch-up" zones destroy old content, Blizzard needs to make sure that when someone hits level 110, they have to progress through the dungeons that were there on launch, then the raids, etc. Killing old content like that kills the game, then people who whine "wahhhh wahhh, i want my alts to catch up quick tooooooo!!" can go stuff it because having catch-up mechanics ruin the old content for people who haven't played since expac. launch.

They can still add fun world content like Timeless/Tanaan etc... But they should keep the gearing up process very linear, and every patch come out with one or two dungeons along with a raid or maybe more in absence of a raid.

Also, bring back scenarios, not too many, but not too little. They were fun, quick, and challenging.

[Tolian]

I think dungeons should have a learning curve like most raids do.

This is well said. I think part of the problem, that I saw at least, in WoD was that with the exception of perhaps the second boss in Grimrail, there weren't any heroics that I remember being difficult even with pugs. Admittedly it's been quite a while since they came out, so perhaps I'm remembering them through today's point of view.

Heroic dungeons though that require you to be familiar with the trash mob's abilities, not just the bosses, sounds pretty cool to me. The longer stuff like this stays challenging, the longer it will provide another type of interesting content.

[Deleted]

Mythic yes, normal and heroic you can ignore mechanics and kill things pretty much.

Mythic+1 is almost like doing heroic. +3 is similar but mainly the timer makes it more strenuous. It's at +4 and up that it becomes more challenging.

[Djriff]

Fully agree.

Most pugs stay in the fire (thanks to LFR) and don't even interrupt. Then they complain it's tooooo hard. And Blizzard reduces the difficulty because they are too scared to lose one sub.

Casuals are a plague to the game.

That seems like a fairly baseless argument.

They did try super hard dungeons with coordination, that was Cataclysm dungeons at the beginning.

They tried a different approach with mythic Dungeons. Have you tried doing them at the intended ilvl of 660? It's actually difficult if you don't outgear it by a good 60 or so ilvls.

I'm not disagreeing that people don't stand in the fire, or that LFR is probably a reason they no longer care, but that's a pretty wide brush you're painting there.

[Tolian]

They tried a different approach with mythic Dungeons. Have you tried doing them at the intended ilvl of 660? It's actually difficult if you don't outgear it by a good 60 or so ilvls.

Are you perhaps exaggerating? 660 for the intended audience for Mythics? So every item in there is a 25 point upgrade, or more? Lol. I bet it would be difficult to do them at 660. Just like it would be by unequipping MH weapons and using a fishing pole instead, but that's not really the point is it? ;-)

[SidFwuff]

Are you perhaps exaggerating? 660 for the intended audience for Mythics? So every item in there is a 25 point upgrade, or more? Lol. I bet it would be difficult to do them at 660. Just like it would be by unequipping MH weapons and using a fishing pole instead, but that's not really the point is it? ;-)

The Premade group finder suggests 660 for Mythics.

Which is no different than Heroics for fresh lv100s (~605-610) or Normal Highmaul in Heroic dungeon gear (630).

Many people here skipped normal and jumped straight into Heroic Highmaul- clearing bosses that dropped 670 loot with 630 gear (there were some complaints about Butcher's enrage timer on MMO at the time).

That's 40 iLvls. You should have no problem doing Mythic dungeons at 660.

Don't worry though, apparently Mythic+ is a cakewalk too. There was a blue post responding to Beta testers on here- testers were applauding +7 as "just right" and the blue said the gear they had was aimed at +2 or something.

[Tolian]

That's craziness. I haven't even looked at the group finder suggestion for them, but I'll take your word for it that it says 660. Though I'd probably debate with you that the people who went straight into Heroic HM are representative of more than even the top ~15% of players, as I remember hearing about that and it was all of the leading Mythic guilds who were doing it. Mythic raiders have a higher skill level than average Joe mythic dungeon adventurer. Don't know that it's really a valid comparison.

I do hope they don't nerf the Mythic+ dungeons though. That's the #1 feature I'm looking forward to this xpac. If they're no better than Heroics then that will suck.

[Kohz]

I hope they make the dungeons fun like during the Cataclysm launch. It was actually challenging and required good communication.

[Baine]

Challenge is ok but it must has limits for the common player:

This sounds like the myth that hard content forces players to rise to the challenge and not quit

-Greg Street

https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...93830291095553

[nekobaka]

Since we are quoting that thread. Here is a tweet further down.
https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...39933150597120

Q: If it's a myth, then why is it bad for HScens to be nerfed? Maybe having goals is important for progression?
CG: The difference is there are alternatives to heroic scenarios. The problem with e.g. Cat dungeons was there were not.

[Pantalaimon]

Not on beta but I doubt heroics will be any different than WoD difficulty. Mythic+ without the keystone challenges will probably be about as easy as WoD mythics, but will actually be harder since we probably won't get Mirror of the Blademaster like trinkets to aoe zerg everything down at launch.

As for the cata heroics I really enjoyed them too. However, while there was small room for error contributing to making the 5 mans more challenging (such as not letting the worm hit you in Stonecore since it would one shot you) enough of the challenge was somewhat arbitrary as it was only hard if you had a bad comp. The naga boss & especially the first boss in SFK were examples of this. Both bosses had many interruptable abilities that needed to be interrupted or they would do massive damage to the tank, the group, or heal the boss. Usually groups would just coordinate who interrupted what, but rarely you would have groups that had 2 or even 3 dps specs that had no reliable short interrupts such as spriests, boomkins, and one of the hunter specs (forget which one). It was rare to be in a group like that, but when it happened the fights would be *close* to impossible unless the group flat out outgeared the encounter. This is partially why they removed the healing ability from the boss in SFK specifically. The tank could handle one of the damaging abilities, but with a group lacking many interrupts the heal on top of it made the groups attempts laugh worthy (I'm sure some of you remember runs where the boss healed 3 or more times before dying).

[Ebalina]

When Cata launched regular dungeons posed challenges, the Heroics were deemed as "impossible" until blizzard tuned some of the fights for the majority.

To the Beta testers could you compare the new dungeons to the dungeons that came out in Cata?

CATA dungeons never were hard not even in day 1 of max level.
Just because some mouthbreeding keyboard turning clicking people couldn't play or find their interupt button doesn't mean the dungeons were hard.

And no if you surround your self with people that are actually capable of not dying while breathing oxygen you will be fine.

[Pantalaimon]

CATA dungeons never were hard not even in day 1 of max level.
Just because some mouthbreeding keyboard turning clicking people couldn't play or find their interupt button doesn't mean the dungeons were hard.

And no if you surround your self with people that are actually capable of not dying while breathing oxygen you will be fine.

Some dps specs didn't have 10 second cooldowns. If you were so unlucky to get 2 or even all three of your dpsers in the group that either had no interrupt or it was on a 45 sec cd you were screwed.

Basically the class design for the expansion was imbalanced and wasn't properly designed. Much of this was influenced by the state of pvp and raiding. Why give shadow priests shorter interrupts when someone else in your 3's comp or 10 man raid can interrupt for them? 5 man pve content got the short end of the design stick when it came down to this.