[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Demsi]

Seal of Blood was never doing those kinds of crits and you know it. To do even half our HP it would need to have crit for 20k, and god knows it definitely wasn't doing that kind of damage. It was barely an issue compared to Berserker Stance and Life Tap.

Didn't paladins kill themselves with it on razuvious? with the 200% increase dmg taken, wich the boss debuffed you with during the fight?

[Teleros]

Didn't paladins kill themselves with it on razuvious? with the 200% increase dmg taken, wich the boss debuffed you with during the fight?

There were a few bosses like that, yes... but Reg isn't exactly talking about them*.

*Bet you a cookie he does after my above post though...

[bloodmoth13]

See alot of useless feedback on this about it just sucking, out of curiosity whats missing from live?

Is it just lack of utility?
all classes lost utility, they are doing a disarmament here so thats not unique

is it the rotation itself?
personally i think the rotation looks pretty solid, really pleased with the 2 charges of crusader strike anyway

Is it mechanics?
Random proc of art of war missing? dont see why they cant just add that back in though

not really understanding the hate here

[Teleros]

Is it just lack of utility?
all classes lost utility, they are doing a disarmament here so thats not unique

Ret has lost BoSac, double blessings, and effective instant heals. Think that's about it.

is it the rotation itself?
personally i think the rotation looks pretty solid, really pleased with the 2 charges of crusader strike anyway

The rotation is manageable, if dull, what with no baseline procs. Though Crusade's continuing inability to be as good as DP means at least at L100+ we'll have one proc for sure.

Is it mechanics?
Random proc of art of war missing? dont see why they cant just add that back in though

I think they could do with a baseline proc, but it's too late to add it in TBH.

not really understanding the hate here

Mobility.
Sucky artefact traits (Echo of the Highlord).
Mobility.
Sucky mastery.
Mobility.
Greater Colossal Mass Judgement of Lothar's Might.
Mobility.
2/3 sucky L100 talents.
Mobility.
Derpony.
Mobility.

Off the top of my head that about sums it up.

[Reghame]

Seal of Blood was never doing those kinds of crits and you know it. To do even half our HP it would need to have crit for 20k, and god knows it definitely wasn't doing that kind of damage. It was barely an issue compared to Berserker Stance and Life Tap.

before the damage change from it going from mostly judge damage to seal damage, a judge crit could do almost as much damage as your HP pool. since it dealt 33% of the damage to your health pool via judge, if it did that much damage it would in theory also do as as a third of your hp in self damage.

- - - Updated - - -

i believe the change in the damage form also occurred either at the beginning or mid way through ulduar if im not mistaken as well and that change was more or less based on PVP complaints. then was completely removed in the crusader patch due to all sorts of reasons, all of which were fairly valid (but left ret in a sort of meh state since SoV was still like 20% behind blood in damage and without damage compensations as well.

- - - Updated - - -
@Teleros are you using the current shadowmourne model for those damage calcs? if you are you should know that SM and all gear from ICC was changed after cata landed. which could skew your damage to health numbers by quite a lot ( since you would be comparing lowered damage, AP and SP values while also keeping the same health values. which would be an incorrect measure since health and damage levels were different back in wrath compared to say MoP or such.

[Teleros]

a judge crit could do almost as much damage as your HP pool

Stop playing on dodgy private servers Reg.

Edit: I'm using the 3.3.5a Openwow private server database numbers.

Openwow Shadowmourne: 344.1 DPS
Wowhead Shadowmourne: 52.54 DPS

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I actually remember Seal of Blood. Dear lord it hit hard, course during the course of Wrath we were nerfed. I remember those days, GLORIOUS!

[Deleted]

I actually remember Seal of Blood. Dear lord it hit hard, course during the course of Wrath we were nerfed. I remember those days, GLORIOUS!

Outhealing healers with the amazing Judgement Of The Light as well.

[bloodmoth13]

Ret has lost BoSac, double blessings, and effective instant heals. Think that's about it.


The rotation is manageable, if dull, what with no baseline procs. Though Crusade's continuing inability to be as good as DP means at least at L100+ we'll have one proc for sure.


I think they could do with a baseline proc, but it's too late to add it in TBH.


Mobility.
Sucky artefact traits (Echo of the Highlord).
Mobility.
Sucky mastery.
Mobility.
Greater Colossal Mass Judgement of Lothar's Might.
Mobility.
2/3 sucky L100 talents.
Mobility.
Derpony.
Mobility.

Off the top of my head that about sums it up.

Thanks.

I think they should bring art of war back baseline for blade of justice, maybe increase its base CD, or atleast have it as a low level talent, perhaps in pace of one of the other talents on the blade of justice row, seems strange to have it removed like that as it was quite iconic.

I wouldnt worry too much about balance atm, they are still in the tuning phase, and they recently gave frost mages and shadow priests a new spell each so i wouldnt rule anything out.

I dont think paladins should be mobile, it isnt thematic, but they should be given something to compensate similar to how immobile characters in Mobas are compensated for their lack of mobility, it just matters how much compensation they need and where it can be delivered.

I dont hate the artifact perks, though echo looks rather weak, still waiting for tuning though

"Greater Colossal Mass Judgement of Lothar's Might."
Not sure what this is...

Oh wow i just saw what the mastery was.. that looks like it would only ever feel bad with missed procs or not wanting to use spenders...

Still dont think they need mobility so long as they are compensated elsewhere (Better heal perhaps?)

Surprised to see holy wrath still exists, its not a PvE ability, it should be on the PvP tree, otherwise redesign the entire way the game plays so that melee champs can off tank some mobs or something.
crusade looks bland, i will admit.

i can agree that the 100 tier and mastery arent great.

i like derpony, i think its the coolest mobility spell in the game!

I see some problems, i dont think the spec is ruined by any means though

[Snegovik]

Thanks.

I think they should bring art of war back baseline for blade of justice, maybe increase its base CD, or atleast have it as a low level talent, perhaps in pace of one of the other talents on the blade of justice row, seems strange to have it removed like that as it was quite iconic.

I wouldnt worry too much about balance atm, they are still in the tuning phase, and they recently gave frost mages and shadow priests a new spell each so i wouldnt rule anything out.

I dont think paladins should be mobile, it isnt thematic, but they should be given something to compensate similar to how immobile characters in Mobas are compensated for their lack of mobility, it just matters how much compensation they need and where it can be delivered.

I dont hate the artifact perks, though echo looks rather weak, still waiting for tuning though

"Greater Colossal Mass Judgement of Lothar's Might."
Not sure what this is...

Oh wow i just saw what the mastery was.. that looks like it would only ever feel bad with missed procs or not wanting to use spenders...

Still dont think they need mobility so long as they are compensated elsewhere (Better heal perhaps?)

Surprised to see holy wrath still exists, its not a PvE ability, it should be on the PvP tree, otherwise redesign the entire way the game plays so that melee champs can off tank some mobs or something.
crusade looks bland, i will admit.

i can agree that the 100 tier and mastery arent great.

i like derpony, i think its the coolest mobility spell in the game!

I see some problems, i dont think the spec is ruined by any means though

Well maybe in PVE Rets dont need mobility, and maybe in PVE a 45 sec cd sprint for 3 sec can be called "cool", in PvP however, as melee you MUST be able to stick to the target either with high mobility (DH, WW, Rogues) or Spamable snares + good CC which can not be dispelled (DKs).

See in PvP, Rets will never have good healing, only time we did was last season of Cata.
In PvP must be able to catch some1 in order to deal dmg, our only slow and only cc are both dispellable and you can not spam them, our mobility is also crap we will become a "W" melee spec. Hence it is not fine nor cool by all means when an Elem shammy, mage, hunter, WW, boomy can kite you for hours while Loling at you.
Ret is ONLY Dps class whose all major D-cds are dispellable
Also we lost our meaningful utility
See you say Rets will be tunned or compensated for lack of mobility, utility, or healing before release, but we wont =) just look at the past 3 xpacs, Ret will never be good enough to be among the "big boys" at least in PvP.

[bloodmoth13]

Well maybe in PVE Rets dont need mobility, and maybe in PVE a 45 sec cd sprint for 3 sec can be called "cool", in PvP however, as melee you MUST be able to stick to the target either with high mobility (DH, WW, Rogues) or Spamable snares + good CC which can not be dispelled (DKs).

See in PvP, Rets will never have good healing, only time we did was last season of Cata.
In PvP must be able to catch some1 in order to deal dmg, our only slow and only cc are both dispellable and you can not spam them, our mobility is also crap we will become a "W" melee spec. Hence it is not fine nor cool by all means when an Elem shammy, mage, hunter, WW, boomy can kite you for hours while Loling at you.
Ret is ONLY Dps class whose all major D-cds are dispellable
Also we lost our meaningful utility
See you say Rets will be tunned or compensated for lack of mobility, utility, or healing before release, but we wont =) just look at the past 3 xpacs, Ret will never be good enough to be among the "big boys" at least in PvP.

Im not saying we will, im just saying that i think its a more thematic direction to compensate them for the lack of mobility, like removing hand of freedom for a personal selfish unstoppable spell instead of a speed boost, and paladins perhaps deserve a perma slow or spammable CC style of gameplay.

I consider CC, mobility and range to be the 3 biggest factors in deciding gameplay, i see ret pallies as having average range, low mobility and decent CC, on the flipside though they could have counters to the other three, perhaps an ability that reduces ranged damage dramatically or ignores CC entirely or stops other classes being mobile.

I get that they may need some more to compete, but giving everyone mobility because someone else has it i think is a shitty direction. Thats how you end up with class homogenization.

[istroxpro]

Every class has its own mobility abilities except of Ret, why should Ret be the only exception?

[Temna]

Every class has its own mobility abilities except of Ret, why should Ret be the only exception?

*places torches and pitchforks and storm brand chainsaw*

TECHNICALLY...Hand of Freedom would count as a "mobility" tool.

[Snegovik]

-snip-

Yes, I see what you are saying. However, I think you are viewing it from PVE pov, you mentioned
Range, cc, mobility (those are important) but in PvP survival is as important as offensive capabilities.
I don’t mind Ret to be a low mobility melee class, but I want to be compensated for it, like DKs:
Dks have better AOE, they have amazing anti-mobility tools (as well as spamable slow), they have on demand burst (where runes are rdy to go the second u connect with target), while Rets have judgment window + holly power build up, also Dks have a very good survival for melee, which you can not dispel and have better self heals than Ret, and have better utility than Ret.
Atm Ret only have a good dmg, but that’s bout it, our cc is dispellable (which is crap, we are only melee with magic dispellable cc, which every healer and some of dps can dispel/block/reflect/mimic (DKs))
In order for Blizzard’s vision to work of Ret being a low mobility class, we actually need a compensation for low utility other than a decent dps (which is not even top among other melee), we need either survival buff or mobility or utility or healing, something to make us on par with other melee classes, since atm we already fall behind other DPS classes in Rated PvP at least.

- - - Updated - - -

Every class has its own mobility abilities except of Ret, why should Ret be the only exception?

Ret has best mobility in game, its called "W", I hope gents and laddies you got a back up keyboard, since you will be jamming that "W" button quite a lot =)

[ruiizu]

Yet another beta build. Possibly disappointment afoot.

Btw, I don't think people's fears of "you won't be finished with your Artifact" are unfounded. By the time I reached 110, I still had over a dozen traits left and it was costing 7000+ points per trait (with most items giving 100-200 points).

Edit: Crushing, crushing slowness from the patch. Blade of Justice to 10.5 second CD, oh god the sluggishness.

Edit #2: Honestly if they keep buffing Greater Judgment's crit %, eventually it's just going to be "Judgment always crits." Even then I'm still not positive how many people would take it. The fact that it scales negatively with gear is a big minus. Overall would say this patch wasn't too great for us, pretty sizeable nerf to Judgment scaling on artifact for a tiny base gain. Stronger Zeal I guess, but that Divine Hammer nerf...haha oh boy. Hard to believe they think we needed less Holy Power in general.

[k1dsmoke]

before the damage change from it going from mostly judge damage to seal damage, a judge crit could do almost as much damage as your HP pool. since it dealt 33% of the damage to your health pool via judge, if it did that much damage it would in theory also do as as a third of your hp in self damage.

- - - Updated - - -

i believe the change in the damage form also occurred either at the beginning or mid way through ulduar if im not mistaken as well and that change was more or less based on PVP complaints. then was completely removed in the crusader patch due to all sorts of reasons, all of which were fairly valid (but left ret in a sort of meh state since SoV was still like 20% behind blood in damage and without damage compensations as well.

- - - Updated - - -
@Teleros are you using the current shadowmourne model for those damage calcs? if you are you should know that SM and all gear from ICC was changed after cata landed. which could skew your damage to health numbers by quite a lot ( since you would be comparing lowered damage, AP and SP values while also keeping the same health values. which would be an incorrect measure since health and damage levels were different back in wrath compared to say MoP or such.

You could definitely one shot yourself on Malygos with a double spark stack and wings.

[Geso]

Minor buff to CS, FoJ nerf. Cooldowns increased across the board. Crusade suddenly extremely viable with 100% up time thanks to it's 20 second cooldown (clearly not intended). Judgement dmg boost from artifact trait cut in 1/2.

So far they just keep giving reasons to reroll.

[k1dsmoke]

Yet another beta build. Possibly disappointment afoot.

Btw, I don't think people's fears of "you won't be finished with your Artifact" are unfounded. By the time I reached 110, I still had over a dozen traits left and it was costing 7000+ points per trait (with most items giving 100-200 points).

Edit: Crushing, crushing slowness from the patch. Blade of Justice to 10.5 second CD, oh god the sluggishness.

Edit #2: Honestly if they keep buffing Greater Judgment's crit %, eventually it's just going to be "Judgment always crits." Even then I'm still not positive how many people would take it. The fact that it scales negatively with gear is a big minus. Overall would say this patch wasn't too great for us, pretty sizeable nerf to Judgment scaling on artifact for a tiny base gain. Stronger Zeal I guess, but that Divine Hammer nerf...haha oh boy. Hard to believe they think we needed less Holy Power in general.

Leveling your Artifact is really where leveling in Legion will occur. I was 110 by the end of the second zone I did. Also, as you continue with your research you keep getting higher and higher AP from many of the Daily rewards. I just did a World boss before Beta went down and got 7k AP for my level 20 Ashbringer and my Artifact Knowledge is at level 10. Most of the smaller AP dailies are giving me 1800-2000 with the blue qualities ones around 2400.

[Bormec]

They're trying hard to make Haste the priority, aren't they?

I like the Consecration adjustment, because in my AoE testing it was up way more than I had free GCD to use it, but now you really gotta make sure shit stays inside of it. That TFoJ nerf, ugh. Since we're f***ed on Flash of Light use, I'm glad Word of Glory got buffed, hope it's good now. And they keep baby-stepping the hell out of Crusade.

[Lamortykins]

Crusade Increases your damage and haste by 2.5% 3.0% for 20 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 2.5% 3.0%. Maximum 15 stacks. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 sec cooldown.

Don't worry guys; I'm sure it will be good eventually.