Acceptable number of LFR wipes?

[Wingspan]

So this has just become an anti-LFR thread, as was to be expected?

LFR is about to be in the game for the fourth expansion. At this point if it were actually damaging the game then Blizzard would have long since removed it. Since it's not removed we can safely assume that all this hand-wringing about how it's hurting WoW is just wishful thinking by the crowd that hates not having control over other people's play.

I think you pretty much nailed it here. The bulk of the thread seems to be about fixing something that does not seem all that broken to me.

These kinds of threads are always out there, but they always seem to pile up and get really intense when an expansion is winding down and a new one is about to begin. If I had to guess, it would be because most of the anti crowd feel that they have a better shot at having it removed along with the various changes in the coming expansion. Obviously it never works, but it will all be over soon, and then we can sit back and enjoy a couple of years of relative peace before it fires up again.

[OreoLover]

80+% for 0-3 wipes.

I'd guess that's due to lost time and frustration with others.

[Deadite]

Millions of people comit suicide, does the amount of people doing an activity equate to it being good? I already explained why i believe that LFR is trapping perfectly reasonable people by never asking them to improve. You seem to dismiss this idea completely because of whatever reason.

What a fucked up comparison.

You make the assertion that the game has gone to shit by pandering to the casual players and then bemoan the fact the game is not specially designed to your play style? Hate to break it to you pal but WoD is what you hoped for. They went all in trying to get people into raids and 5 million people buggered off!

I really don't think that a huge chunk of the player base has any interest in getting better or trying hard content. I know it is a dirty word around these parts but i think most folk just want to have fun in a video game. *gasp* They are happy to log in and do whatever for a wee while then log off. You need to take a more pragmatic view. You like to raid Mythic. Good for you! You see the game as a challenge to overcome.No doubt you put a good deal of effort into being the best whatever class you are but Bob over here likes to RP as a Sheep in Elwynn Forest for 12 hours per day. He thinks you are a mental for wiping on a boss for 3 weeks. You can't force people to play the game your way. That is what you seem to be saying should happen. That will never happen. Best you can do is find enough like-minded people and achieve whatever goals you set yourself because that is what everyone else will be doing.

[Wingspan]

I really don't think that a huge chunk of the player base has any interest in getting better or trying hard content. I know it is a dirty word around these parts but i think most folk just want to have fun in a video game.

Agreed.

Somewhere along the line (and I am not sure when) modern gaming seemed to be more about "working for something" and less about "having fun". I am not sure what caused it... it may be a side effect of having gaming world/communities... or it might be due to having persistent worlds that allow you to build on things. I am not sure.

All I know is that at some point a lot of people started to believe that fun can only be had through work, which is like stepping into an episode of The Twilight Zone or something.

Regardless, I think we have reached a point now where less people are buying into the concept of work=fun, so it is kind of self-correcting at this point. With a lot of pretty decent games out there to choose from (many of them FTP), a lot of these people could simply be leaving for greener fields (with less work and more fun)... but who knows, really?



LFR seems to be a good place now for some people to have some fun with a fairly minimal amount of tedious work involved, and it seems to be surviving against all the odds that the "must work" crowd would have ever given it. I am glad to see that kind of success.

[Halicia]

Do you even read what you write? In essence you say that LFR should be a completely free ride with no risk of failure and yet still be called raid content.

Do you even read what you quote ?

I never said there should be no risk in LFR, I said the risk & reward should be entirely personal.

If you fail, you die.

But in certain poorly designed LFR bosses, if you fail.... RANDOM STRANGER DIES.

Obviously in "actual" raiding with presumed history between your raid members these sorts of mechanics are welcome and expected to a certain degree... but in a random group environment where the assumption is that people will NOT know each other, or cooperate, or even communicate.... the mechanics need to fit that.

1 or 2 wipes on an LFR boss is acceptable.... capping out at 10 stacks and STILL WIPING... is just bad design.

Its comparable to a BG where one starting position wins 90% of the time. 50-55% of the time is within the margin of error. 90% of the time just reflects bad design.

[Greenmagoo]

In terms of average at launch I would say two.

I did like the early WoD LFR in terms of time commitment of both the wings and the length of queues. Queues for LFR right now are just too long to be considered casual friendly and I do not know how can say with a straight face that SoO LFR queues and clear times as casual friendly. SoO LFR made Cata heroics look paltry. I would not touch LFR if it got as bad as MoP did again even with the return of tier. Not worth that frustration and no wonder why LFR participation took a huge hit in SoO. If someone wants challenge in raid content they can go do normal or above.

To the poster complaining about thread derailment. You are no better given you have chosen to be an active participant in derailing the thread.

[judgementofantonidas]

Do you even read what you quote ?

I never said there should be no risk in LFR, I said the risk & reward should be entirely personal.

If you fail, you die.

But in certain poorly designed LFR bosses, if you fail.... RANDOM STRANGER DIES.

Obviously in "actual" raiding with presumed history between your raid members these sorts of mechanics are welcome and expected to a certain degree... but in a random group environment where the assumption is that people will NOT know each other, or cooperate, or even communicate.... the mechanics need to fit that.

1 or 2 wipes on an LFR boss is acceptable.... capping out at 10 stacks and STILL WIPING... is just bad design.

Its comparable to a BG where one starting position wins 90% of the time. 50-55% of the time is within the margin of error. 90% of the time just reflects bad design.

wiping to someone else stupidity or incompetence is the risk you take in doing ANY group content.

[ItachiZaku]

First couple of weeks of LFR? A couple.

After one full year? None.

Yeah, this. I remember wiping on Tyrant once... and Mannaroth once. Both of those were first week. Now, everything is "center of room, tank and spank" bar none. HFC is just more aoe than previous expansions.

[Sansnom]

As to other points, if you think LFR does not cause damage, then you are not fully in tune with reality.

Why? Just because people think differently and do not consider LFR is a game breaking feature?

It is the very ill-will Blizzard has been the target of for years now. Cross-anything destroys communities, be it LFD, LFR, CRZ. I could not care less what data Blizzard has obtained. It's what players feel that counts.

And that is the problem with many posters, including you I might add. You know how you feel about. You know how people you know feel about the game. You do not know how people you do not know feel about the game.

One example is the sub lost. People can have all the theories they like. But that is just what they are, theories. Based on limited observation, which is this had this many subs, that year had that many subs. Just one fact we know. One number. And from this people speculate everything on the cause, even with no supporting evidence.

[aggranger]

I voted Zero based on where we are in the expac. At the beginning of a raid tier, ya got to treat it like progression....but way easier. I can stomach 3-4 wipes when the raid is new and with the Determination Buff.

I think I really liked LFR back in MoP (MSV, HoF, ToT) when LFR took some communication to figure out the boss (Hello Garalon, looking at you buddy). The community wasn't quite as toxic for those raids as it became by the end of SoO.

[Zulkhan]

I could not care less what data Blizzard has obtained. It's what players feel that counts.

Good for you. Too bad that DA FEELS of an unknown number of vocal players will always matter jackshit compared to reliable data.

wiping to someone else stupidity or incompetence is the risk you take in doing ANY group content.

Then show me an example even vaguely similar to LFR, where a whole raid is set up randomly.

The closest example are Random Battlegrounds but PvP is quite a different deal. You play the BG, lose it because idiots ruined it, requeue for a different game with a different team; in LFR you either try and try again with the same people or leave and requeue, sometimes for 20 or 30 minutes if you're a dps.

[judgementofantonidas]

Then show me an example even vaguely similar to LFR, where a whole raid is set up randomly.

The closest example are Random Battlegrounds but PvP is quite a different deal. You play the BG, lose it because idiots ruined it, requeue for a different game with a different team; in LFR you either try and try again with the same people or leave and requeue, sometimes for 20 or 30 minutes if you're a dps.

there is your issue. highlighted in red. if you want to raid and raid with the level of incompetent players that you will find in a random match making system the percentage of jackwagons that wipe you simply because they don't care or don't know any better will be large.

there is no catering the system to only provide players you meet skill cap, even for such arguably infantile content.

[Halicia]

wiping to someone else stupidity or incompetence is the risk you take in doing ANY group content.

Not "wiping". I'm (kinda) cool with wiping to a limited degree....

but when Player A stands around in fire all day and isn't punished squat for it.... but player B is dying because of it, even though they're doing everything right.... its NOT a proper mechanic for a system where you are "by design" forced to group with random strangers whether you like their performance or not.

The first boss of Terrace had a healer/dispel mechanic like this that killed you if the OTHER healers just went their merry way and chose not to dispel you, although this probably wasn't in LFR (heck if i remember that far back).

[Vineri]

Good for you. Too bad that DA FEELS of an unknown number of vocal players will always matter jackshit compared to reliable data.

The concept of vocal players works both ways. Who is to say the vocal players at a given time are the reason why unpopular changes get made?

Since accounts are constantly churning thoughout this games life-span, it's not unreasonable to say that the vocal "majority" who spurred changes are also those who no longer play.

What proof they don't play? well... What proof they still play?

Just for kicks, we are both vocal. Reliable data .. right. Subs are down, or do you really believe the last sub count release before Blizzard was getting embarrassed with numbers. Revenue may be up though, since they charge $$ to get off a dead server - and the cash shop, oh good grief.

[judgementofantonidas]

Not "wiping". I'm (kinda) cool with wiping to a limited degree....

but when Player A stands around in fire all day and isn't punished squat for it.... but player B is dying because of it, even though they're doing everything right.... its NOT a proper mechanic for a system where you are "by design" forced to group with random strangers whether you like their performance or not.

The first boss of Terrace had a healer/dispel mechanic like this that killed you if the OTHER healers just went their merry way and chose not to dispel you, although this probably wasn't in LFR (heck if i remember that far back).

oh. you mean sort of like when a tank is forced to watch 16 dps and 2 heals commit every kind of screw up possible while they do their job flawlessly? sounds sort of like any other raid.