1. #2621
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastey View Post
    Ah I see. That would be cancer but luckily we only have 1 DoT now. And you could argue it becomes less of a DoT specc now since you have to use the DoT less often. In fact with Roaring Blaze it basically becomes a combo specc.
    Currently on live immolate is better than incinerate even it if gets only 1 tick and this is still the case in Legion, which is fine

    What is truly interesting about the 18 seconds duration on immolate is that conflagrate has 12 seconds CD and therefore 24 seconds in order to get 2 charges. This means that if we can hit 25 % haste Roaring Blaze will most likely become absolutely insane as conflagrate CD hits the same as immolate duration allowing us to do immolate > conflag > conflag every single time.
    With 2 piece bonus it becomes 27 seconds for 3 charges which means we require 33% haste, and if we can hit that number (or close to) once again Roaring Blaze will be mental with immolate > conflag x 3

    These will most likely be the best points of haste you can get under those circumstances, but whether it will be better than mastery I doubt, but I will leave that to some simcraft numbers
    Roaring Blaze + high haste + 2 piece bonus is going to be absolutely nuts. Immolate on its own hits decently hard, having a way to buff the damage, then buff the buffed damage, and so on, with haste increasing both the initial total amount of damage as well as increasing number of times we can buff the remaining damage through conflag is bound to escalate. Unless something changes drastically, first raid tier is going to see immolate dot way ahead of any other damage source for destruction warlocks.

  2. #2622
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    Roaring Blaze + high haste + 2 piece bonus is going to be absolutely nuts. Immolate on its own hits decently hard, having a way to buff the damage, then buff the buffed damage, and so on, with haste increasing both the initial total amount of damage as well as increasing number of times we can buff the remaining damage through conflag is bound to escalate. Unless something changes drastically, first raid tier is going to see immolate dot way ahead of any other damage source for destruction warlocks.
    I'm trying to come up with an argument for AoE, but as I see it. Roaring Blaze with haste should be absolutely insane on single target and cleave with havoc.
    On AoE I suppose our damage will be nerfed slightly on Rain of Fire (depending on scaling of mastery vs haste in this case), but seing as our AoE rotation on small packs will most likely be applying immolate and using Rain of Fire I suppose the difference won't be too significant so we can focus on haste for single target and cleave. Ofcourse we need more precise numbers for this

  3. #2623
    • Incinerate doesn't add anything to the spec. Before it atleast gave us Embers but now it doesnt do jack shit unless you pick a terrible trait in your Artifact tree.
    • No baseline Soulburn makes the entire playstyle the same throughout the fight. Just keep spamming Incinerate with Immolate on target and spend Shards on Chaos bolt.
    • Terrible mobility without Demonic Circle
    • Imp is supposed to be the best pet for Destruction, leaving us with no interrupt in 2/3 talent choices.(you're an idiot if you summon a Felhunter with the Grimoire of Service talent) Where the remaining talent takes away a Cooldown. Possibly leaving us with NOT A SINGLE DAMAGE COOLDOWN.
    • Our only AoE, Rain of Fire, costing us Soul Shards(...)
    • Artifact Gold trait are flat out terrible.
      • Every 10 min our Infernal does damage(WHOHO!)
      • 4% chance to cause Incinerate to spice up your rotation by making you click another button.
      • Casting Conflag makes your next Conflag crit and do a bit more damage. (Are you fucking kidding me?!)
    • Dimensional Rift being a complete shit ability that doesn't synergize with the spec in the slightest. It's so awkward to play around with during a boss fight.


    So what we are left with is a underperforming, boring playstyle with wonky mechanics that doesn't bring anything useful to a raid. But please blizzard, keep nerfing us even more. I like being alone in my Order Hall. Gives me more of a Garrison feel to it.

  4. #2624
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinex View Post
    • Incinerate doesn't add anything to the spec. Before it atleast gave us Embers but now it doesnt do jack shit unless you pick a terrible trait in your Artifact tree.
    • No baseline Soulburn makes the entire playstyle the same throughout the fight. Just keep spamming Incinerate with Immolate on target and spend Shards on Chaos bolt.
    • Terrible mobility without Demonic Circle
    • Imp is supposed to be the best pet for Destruction, leaving us with no interrupt in 2/3 talent choices.(you're an idiot if you summon a Felhunter with the Grimoire of Service talent) Where the remaining talent takes away a Cooldown. Possibly leaving us with NOT A SINGLE DAMAGE COOLDOWN.
    • Our only AoE, Rain of Fire, costing us Soul Shards(...)
    • Artifact Gold trait are flat out terrible.
      • Every 10 min our Infernal does damage(WHOHO!)
      • 4% chance to cause Incinerate to spice up your rotation by making you click another button.
      • Casting Conflag makes your next Conflag crit and do a bit more damage. (Are you fucking kidding me?!)
    • Dimensional Rift being a complete shit ability that doesn't synergize with the spec in the slightest. It's so awkward to play around with during a boss fight.


    So what we are left with is a underperforming, boring playstyle with wonky mechanics that doesn't bring anything useful to a raid. But please blizzard, keep nerfing us even more. I like being alone in my Order Hall. Gives me more of a Garrison feel to it.
    I'm considering rolling goblin just to get rocket jump. In beta I'm a goblin, and I don't think I can manage playing warlock without that leap now.

    Agree with incinerate and dimensional rift feeling off, since there is not much synergy with the rest of our kit.

    I'm baffled that they even considered leaving a DPS spec without an interrupt, and more baffled that they don't seem to want to change it (Yes, we CAN get an interrupt, but why do we have to pay for it when other classes don't have to, or even get rewarded for interrupting spellcasts).

    They said FnB being pretty much required to do AoE was bad design and something they would look at, yet one month later and nothing.

    Lord of flames is strong, the others, not so much. Conflag hits like a wet noodle, and sometimes getting a guaranteed crit doesn't change that. 4% chance proc on a spell that we will cast less as we get stronger is bad. Seems like they too saw that incinerate was completely pointless, and tried to fix it by making this trait. Didn't work imo.

    Edit: Destro locks aren't underperforming though. Our AoE isn't great, but single target is fine, and cleave is very strong.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-07-06 at 09:18 AM.

  5. #2625
    Deleted
    So many different views about the same thing. I wonder who is right.

    "Ability X is awesome" - 1 page later - "Ability X is horrible and garbage shit tier design mother fucker blizzard fuck you, why am I not a mage"

    meanwhile in another forum

    "Ability Y is useless, why am I not a Warlock damnit I hate this game"
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2016-07-06 at 09:22 AM.

  6. #2626
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    So many different views about the same thing. I wonder who is right.

    "Ability X is awesome" - 1 page later - "Ability X is horrible and garbage shit tier design mother fucker blizzard fuck you, why am I not a mage"

    meanwhile in another forum

    "Ability Y is useless, why am I not a Warlock damnit I hate this game"
    What ability are you talking about? :P

  7. #2627
    Is there any consensus on what path shall we spend our artifact power on?

  8. #2628
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    What ability are you talking about? :P
    Immolate for example, the rift comment above is the most recent one.

    Then there is the "Warlocks are the worst casters right now" group and the "Warlocks are at least decent if not very high DPS" one.

    People tend to exaggerate so much, it's annoying and it seems to be absolutely impossible to grasp what's going on without playing the Beta yourself, which I can...luckily.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2016-07-06 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #2629
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Oh yes, no idea why it is uniquely so for Destruction, guess maybe because of Chaos Bolt...
    Affliction filler is drain life, demonology has soul link. Destros way to get higher baseline tankiness was a lower CD on Unending Resolve (And probably because of Chaos Bolt as well).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Is there any consensus on what path shall we spend our artifact power on?
    I would argue going for Lord of flames, then dimensional rift trait. Lord of flames is such a life saver in many situations. And if it doesn't save your life, it will be ready again immediately :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Immolate for example, the rift comment above is the most recent one.

    Then there is the "Warlocks are the worst casters right now" group and the "Warlocks are at least decent if not very high DPS" one.

    People tend to exaggerate so much, it's annoying and it seems to be absolutely impossible to grasp what's going on without playing the Beta yourself, which I can...luckily.
    I don't think people argue that immolate is bad, more that it makes destruction a dot spec in a way. Dimensional rift is an instant cast nuke, which is nice, but it is also very out of place with the rest of our kit. It doesn't interact with anything at all, until you get a trait that makes incinerate have 4% chance to give a charge, which is so close to no interaction that in my head it still doesn't interact with anything.

    It is easily comparable to fire mage artifact ability. Almost the exact same concept. The main difference is that fire mages can use it to get hot streak, which is pretty much what fire mages are all about. So, in short, we have the fire mage artifact ability, with less interaction with the rest of our kit. Doesn't mean it is "bad", just boring I guess?

    Edit: I mean, if it did the damage, and buffed the next chaos bolt to do 20% more damage to a main target and X% splash, that would immediately make it interact with more things, and make it more interesting. As it is now, you just use it similarly to any other nuke (Don't overcap charges, use with trinket procs, use for burst, etc).

    Edit2: Lol, and fire mages get a trait that allows their ability to recharge faster from ignite. It both increases their ignite damage, and recharges 10 seconds on Phoenix. Not only that, it works in AoE situations, unlike our shitty 4%. THAT is what ruffles my jimmies.

    Edit3: Since I already started: Dimensional Rift also has quite a delay between casting it, and actually dealing damage. In some rare cases I guess this could be used beneficially, but in most cases it would be better to have it just deal the damage as fast as possible. The portal is also a guardian, so if your target moves outside the cast range of the portal, it simply doesn't do anything. This happens quite a bit in PvP. I can understand why it doesn't interact with Havoc, but some sort of interaction would be nice.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-07-06 at 09:52 AM.

  10. #2630
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    Dimensional rift is an instant cast nuke, which is nice, but it is also very out of place with the rest of our kit. It doesn't interact with anything at all, until you get a trait that makes incinerate have 4% chance to give a charge, which is so close to no interaction that in my head it still doesn't interact with anything.
    The interaction with the rest of the spec is that it gives us a reliable and strong instant cast spell to cast on the move. Conflagrate does that as well but is a generator, so sometimes it would be sub-optimal to cast on the move. The same goes for the optional Shadowburn, which is a spender.

    Just because it doesn't directly affect one of the spells in our main rotation doesn't mean there's no synergy. Dimensional Rift actually has pretty strong synergy with the rest of the spec by filling a hole.

  11. #2631
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckz0rs View Post
    The interaction with the rest of the spec is that it gives us a reliable and strong instant cast spell to cast on the move. Conflagrate does that as well but is a generator, so sometimes it would be sub-optimal to cast on the move. The same goes for the optional Shadowburn, which is a spender.

    Just because it doesn't directly affect one of the spells in our main rotation doesn't mean there's no synergy. Dimensional Rift actually has pretty strong synergy with the rest of the spec by filling a hole.
    Okay, there is no direct synergy. I don't care about indirect synergy, if it amounts to having something to cast on the move. As I said, the ability is strong and all that, but that doesn't mean it isn't boring. Look at fire mage artifact ability to get my point.

  12. #2632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinex View Post
    *snip*
    You are trying really hard to make things look worse than they truly are, I can tell you that Destruction is definitely one of the better specs currently in Beta with a lot of unique strengths that make others look at it with jealousy.

  13. #2633
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You are trying really hard to make things look worse than they truly are, I can tell you that Destruction is definitely one of the better specs currently in Beta with a lot of unique strengths that make others look at it with jealousy.
    Yeah, the playstyle is there, it is unique, but you cant argue it feels shallow... They took half of spec mechanics you have currently on live and made them talents. Thats bad design no matter how good the spec feels... I am jealous at demo, true it required this whole change, but they got some unique shit on that talent tree. We dont have anything unique or new besides CDF (looks cool, will give you that) and that conflag talent, which isnt exactly fun or great unique thing... Spec is literally the same as it was in wod, and they just made it play optimal without half of those mechanics, which they put into the talent tree...


    I dont even want to start talking about the problem whole spec is dealing with in pvp, which you might not care about, but this whole shallowness and laziness killed any possibility of it doing anything in pvp besides spamming shadowburn...

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  14. #2634
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Janke View Post
    Yeah, the playstyle is there, it is unique, but you cant argue it feels shallow... They took half of spec mechanics you have currently on live and made them talents. Thats bad design no matter how good the spec feels... I am jealous at demo, true it required this whole change, but they got some unique shit on that talent tree. We dont have anything unique or new besides CDF (looks cool, will give you that) and that conflag talent, which isnt exactly fun or great unique thing... Spec is literally the same as it was in wod, and they just made it play optimal without half of those mechanics, which they put into the talent tree...


    I dont even want to start talking about the problem whole spec is dealing with in pvp, which you might not care about, but this whole shallowness and laziness killed any possibility of it doing anything in pvp besides spamming shadowburn...
    it isnt bad design if its intended and trust me, its intened bcoz blizz wants you to choose which direction you go which is a good thing, after all how good is FnB on a ST and cleave fight? FnB is pretty pointless on those fights including council fights, now you can pick something else, if anything it gives you more choices for builds.
    Last edited by mmoca748dddcc2; 2016-07-06 at 11:02 AM.

  15. #2635
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinex View Post
    [LIST][*] Incinerate doesn't add anything to the spec. Before it atleast gave us Embers but now it doesnt do jack shit unless you pick a terrible trait in your Artifact tree.
    Incinerate actually hits like a truck on AoE, with FnB that is.

  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    it isnt bad design if its intended and trust me, its intened bcoz blizz wants you to choose which direction you go which is a good thing, after all how good is FnB on a ST and cleave fight? FnB is pretty pointless on those fights including council fights, now you can pick something else, if anything it gives you more choices for builds.
    Dude, it was clearly intended, but it doesnt remove the point of it being a bad design. Any1 could do that, they put zero effort into it, and finished the job by using alrdy existing stuff. Literally worse game design I ever saw. Even pornography acting made me less cringe than destro talent tree... Destro has the worse talent tree in legion, period. You understand you had that FnB design alrdy, and that it was taken from normal spec kit and put into a talent tree? Thats str8 up bullshit. All specs have clear paths you need to take in the tree for Aoe, for St, thats very clear. But non of them had all of their choices alrdy in their kit on live atm...

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  17. #2637
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Janke View Post
    Dude, it was clearly intended, but it doesnt remove the point of it being a bad design. Any1 could do that, they put zero effort into it, and finished the job by using alrdy existing stuff. Literally worse game design I ever saw. Even pornography acting made me less cringe than destro talent tree... Destro has the worse talent tree in legion, period. You understand you had that FnB design alrdy, and that it was taken from normal spec kit and put into a talent tree? Thats str8 up bullshit. All specs have clear paths you need to take in the tree for Aoe, for St, thats very clear. But non of them had all of their choices alrdy in their kit on live atm...
    I kinda agree that destruction is somewhat a copout designwise. So much of it already existed before Legion, and the biggest difference is really that some of it becomes automatic if you pick the talent, and if you don't pick the talent you are simply not able to do it, disregarding things we simply can't do any longer (Spread Immolation without Cataclysm and catch stealth with Rain of Fire, at least not without it being a waste of time / resources).

    I mean, a list of "design flaws" just with destro, starting with things we already had that became talents:

    Backdraft, Shadowburn, Fire and Brimstone, Demonic circle, Soul Harvest: Out of 21 new talents, 5 were things we had that became talents. Roughly 25%.

    Then we have "mechanically flawed" talents:

    Cataclysm + Soul Harvest - High damage AoE nuke, and a cooldown that should either be used before to increase the damage, or after to gain the buff longer. Either way you lose out on something.

    Fire and Brimstone - Decent AoE DPS with it, almost no AoE DPS without it.

    Demonic Circle - Requires macro to "function", but enough about that I guess.

    Lord of Flames is clunky to use with GrimSup, interrupt is clunky to use with GrimServ and GrimSac.

    Channel Demonfire only "works" as a single target talent, Soul Conduit is very close to it, and probably better when we get legendaries + artifact traits, and Soul Conduit works for things other than pure single target DPS.

    Last but not least, I could imagine that the difference between a good warlock and a bad warlock is going to be less than what mastery RNG can provide.

    It would be nice if they would somehow spice up destruction warlocks a bit, right now it wouldn't surprise me that the biggest difference between a good destro lock and a bad one would be gearing and talent choices, and not so much the actual playing of the character.

    Edit: I know that destro lock performance is generally fine atm, but with such a simple spec it would be strange if it wasn't. I'd love to see some more complexity sprinkled in, and I would really prefer it being linked to our artifact ability since it currently doesn't feel like more than an instant cast nuke with charges and a semi long cooldown, that doesn't interact with the rest of our kit.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-07-06 at 12:29 PM.

  18. #2638
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    I kinda agree that destruction is somewhat a copout designwise. So much of it already existed before Legion, and the biggest difference is really that some of it becomes automatic if you pick the talent, and if you don't pick the talent you are simply not able to do it, disregarding things we simply can't do any longer (Spread Immolation without Cataclysm and catch stealth with Rain of Fire, at least not without it being a waste of time / resources).

    I mean, a list of "design flaws" just with destro, starting with things we already had that became talents:

    Backdraft, Shadowburn, Fire and Brimstone, Demonic circle, Soul Harvest: Out of 21 new talents, 5 were things we had that became talents. Roughly 25%.

    Then we have "mechanically flawed" talents:

    Cataclysm + Soul Harvest - High damage AoE nuke, and a cooldown that should either be used before to increase the damage, or after to gain the buff longer. Either way you lose out on something.

    Fire and Brimstone - Decent AoE DPS with it, almost no AoE DPS without it.

    Demonic Circle - Requires macro to "function", but enough about that I guess.

    Lord of Flames is clunky to use with GrimSup, interrupt is clunky to use with GrimServ and GrimSac.

    Channel Demonfire only "works" as a single target talent, Soul Conduit is very close to it, and probably better when we get legendaries + artifact traits, and Soul Conduit works for things other than pure single target DPS.

    Last but not least, I could imagine that the difference between a good warlock and a bad warlock is going to be less than what mastery RNG can provide.

    It would be nice if they would somehow spice up destruction warlocks a bit, right now it wouldn't surprise me that the biggest difference between a good destro lock and a bad one would be gearing and talent choices, and not so much the actual playing of the character.
    Loved this more in depth approach you took to the problem I was pointing out. I lacked arguments, realizing it now when I read your post. Spec is far from being bm level retarded, but I really cant say why some1 would be jealous of destro except, well the bm hunters...

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  19. #2639
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastey View Post
    Roaring Blaze with haste should be absolutely insane on single target and cleave with havoc.
    TBH it already was based on my testing. I'd been using it for a lot of testing and consistently getting shenanigans results. For instance on the mythic star augur testing a while back it was doing around 20% of my dmg and averaging 197k a tick. Granted that was before they nerfed the artifact traits a bit for it, so it'd be a bit less now but it was still my top damage by a decent margin and that was with me actually putting a decent bit of effort into trying to immo -> conflag x2 as much as I could get it to line up. That average was more than twice as high as a guildmates immolate ticks who was using backdraft so I was managing it to some degree.

    With the 2p tier with around 22ish%(?) haste we should be able to immolate -> 2x conflag -> immolate (clipping at 5s remaining for pandemic window giving us a 23 second duration)-> 3x conflag -> and now you can continue to immolate 19 seconds later maintaining 3x conflag immolates. If my thinkings right? You'll end up using up your pandemic window after a few intervals I suppose at which point you'd just repeat the 2x one to get it started again.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2016-07-06 at 01:18 PM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  20. #2640
    It will actually be interesting to see how much haste rating is required to reach 25-33% haste and how much we are able to get through dungeons alone. I really don't see crit being a good stat for next expansion as the only spell we have that benefits more from crit than mastery and haste would be immolate, and the value there is heavily reduced by our artifact trait.
    So my hope is we can go all out on mastery while the second stat on most items is haste so we can reach those 33%. That will be absolutely insane with Roaring Blaze and 2pc.

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