1. #26641
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Game needs to hurry up and bring it's ass over here so I can play .
    *sits here and plays it*
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Is that a 2h Zanetsuken at the bottom? That would be cool to see as a new item from the Odin FATE in this game (Zweitesuken? Heh).

    Edit: Not at the bottom of entire page, but among some of the screenshots there (phone didn't want to load full page for a bit there).
    Yes it is.

  2. #26642
    kinda off topic/ on topic but is PSO2 out on europe?
    someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  3. #26643
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Assuming your healer wants to DPS. Also it is actually possible to tank without using your tank stance, pull big pulls, and have the healer full DPS and not die; players just need to not be afk to do it.

    Possible, yes, I've seen it happen. But pure Duty Finder randomness makes this very rare, and most people aren't looking for super speed runs, they just want the dungeon done. Getting it done smoothly is more often better (and easier) than a speed run where you risk a wipe if the tank or healer screw something up


    Are you implying that by having a tank do on average 30%+ more damage over the course of a 15 minute dungeon it only speeds it up by 20 seconds overall? I'll have you know that you're grossly underestimating the value of damage here.

    No, maybe 20 seconds per pull, which yeah adds up over a long time yeah, but in a single dungeon that has maybe 10 pulls, you're only talking a little over 3 minutes.

    That's fine that you experienced that, its a true fact that not all tanks can do it, and there is a time for it (i.e. overgeared DPS).

    Your incredibly limited thinking that a tanks only job is to maintain threat and prevent damage is terrifyingly ignorant.

    That IS a tanks MAIN job in a group, this includes proper positioning, interrupts and whatnot (goes along with preventing damage, not just to the tank but to the rest of the party). Obviously the damage they do is considered as well, but it is by no means their primary function. I'm aware that progression groups have a different mindset, and min/max everything...that is not at all what I'm talking about here. We're talking Duty Finder random groups. Consistent and safe/ smooth (no oh shit healer moments caused by the sheer number of mobs in play) is in my experience and IMO, better than trying to get a "speed" run...saving you a whole ~3 minutes in today's dungeon design, some of the older dungeons it's still possible though, but still just as risky.
    Responses in BOLD above. Why is expecting a tank to act like a tank, terrifyingly ignorant?

  4. #26644
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Responses in BOLD above. Why is expecting a tank to act like a tank, terrifyingly ignorant?
    Tbh I wanna know why people say lowbie tanking is like a 3rd dps including me after playing Gladiator? I haven't had a single issue with emnity at all. Flash, Lob, Fast into Savage and job done.

  5. #26645
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordin Solus View Post
    kinda off topic/ on topic but is PSO2 out on europe?
    JP/Asia only still.

  6. #26646
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Tbh I wanna know why people say lowbie tanking is like a 3rd dps including me after playing Gladiator? I haven't had a single issue with emnity at all. Flash, Lob, Fast into Savage and job done.
    For any low level tanks who aren't downscaled from level 50+, I can pretty much pull aggro at will if I'm running on BLM. On trash packs, at least

  7. #26647
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    The actual blue scrips from turning in the crafted item.
    5 of them can trade for one sand for the relic. So basically I've got all the sands I'll need via those crafting scrips, just need esoterics to pair it with.
    Incorrect.
    50 script buy you a "letter of recommendation blue script". 5 of these letters are needed for 1 sand.
    One sand effectively costs 250 blue script.

    It's still quick and easy but not quite THAT easy.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    30% additional damage over the course of a 15-20 minute dungeon? You may not see or feel it, but it's definitely there.
    I can only drop grit on bosses since these days one does pull all trash SE allows one to pull. On big pulls, the 20% damage reduction is imo to valuable to sacrifice for damage (esp with a random healer), since you don't use DA-SE (single target) anyway.

    So the +30% applies to a fraction of the run. I still do it whenever I can, because it's fun. But I don't fuss out over it if the healer struggles or anything. I silently keep grit on and do my thing. I have the same mindset as WHM. If the group allows for it I go nuts with DPS, if it does not, I fall back to my primary role.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Tbh I wanna know why people say lowbie tanking is like a 3rd dps including me after playing Gladiator? I haven't had a single issue with emnity at all. Flash, Lob, Fast into Savage and job done.
    Get paired with competent / ruthless downscaled DPS as a TRUE lowbie (incl shit leveling gear) and try again.
    Trust me, early tanking can be hell in this game. Thankfully the mobs hit like wet noodles so no one ever dies from getting gnawed at but it still feels shitty if you are the tank.

    Imho WAR sub 30 is worst since TP is >TIGHT< and flash seems to be decoupled from your gear status a bit.
    I had FAR more trouble with my WAR (constantly ooTP because I was forced to spam the cone skill) compared to my PLD and I don't think it was the str nerf alone.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2016-07-06 at 03:15 PM.

  8. #26648
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Well darn, was planning of getting Botanist and Carpenter up, but ran out of leve-allowances with Botanist alone.

  9. #26649
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Possible, yes, I've seen it happen. But pure Duty Finder randomness makes this very rare, and most people aren't looking for super speed runs, they just want the dungeon done. Getting it done smoothly is more often better (and easier) than a speed run where you risk a wipe if the tank or healer screw something up
    Who said anything about speed running? I didn't... I'm talking about optimizing gameplay. If there's a way to do it better I try and find it. I don't do it to run a dungeon faster, I do it as a challenge to myself, because the only other thing in this game that provides this feeling is savage. Sometimes your best runs aren't the fastest or smoothest, it's the most EXCITING ones that stick out, the close calls, the rush of adrenaline and panic.

    My IRL friend who heals doesn't DPS (uses your logic of Healers only heal), so I would regularly run pure DPS gear on my PLD with full DPS stats, and sword oath. My goal would be to make him have to bust his ass healing and I would push the highest DPS I could, while holding threat on all mobs. I regularly had less HP than other DPS, and also regularly out-parsed every single person in the group by a fairly sizeable margin. That shit was dicey, but incredibly fun. I've done it with pug healers too, especially if they're trying to do that bullshit afk Fairy heal shit. If I'm working, you're working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    No, maybe 20 seconds per pull, which yeah adds up over a long time yeah, but in a single dungeon that has maybe 10 pulls, you're only talking a little over 3 minutes.
    You're also leaving out the 20 seconds per boss savings too, (arguably more), which adds up to another minute.

    At this point we're talking about a run that has more involvement, speed, and excitement. That sounds like a win to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That IS a tanks MAIN job in a group, this includes proper positioning, interrupts and whatnot (goes along with preventing damage, not just to the tank but to the rest of the party). Obviously the damage they do is considered as well, but it is by no means their primary function.

    Responses in BOLD above. Why is expecting a tank to act like a tank, terrifyingly ignorant?
    Here is a direct quote from you:
    Your job is to tank, which is to have the enemies attention and mitigate the incoming damage as much as possible, not deal damage

    Your job as a tank is not binary. A tank is functionally identical to a DPS with the added responsibility of a tank.

    (In no specific order)
    Roles of a DPS:

    1) Kill stuff
    2) Don't die
    3) Minimize damage taken
    4) Switch to adds
    5) Watch threat

    Roles of a tank:
    1) Kill stuff
    2) Don't die
    3) Minimize damage taken
    4) Pick up adds
    5) Hold threat
    6) Position enemies
    7) Provide Utility/Support

    Tanks do everything DPS do and more. They don't do it in less of a priority than others.

  10. #26650
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Who said anything about speed running? I didn't... I'm talking about optimizing gameplay. If there's a way to do it better I try and find it. I don't do it to run a dungeon faster, I do it as a challenge to myself, because the only other thing in this game that provides this feeling is savage. Sometimes your best runs aren't the fastest or smoothest, it's the most EXCITING ones that stick out, the close calls, the rush of adrenaline and panic.

    My IRL friend who heals doesn't DPS (uses your logic of Healers only heal), so I would regularly run pure DPS gear on my PLD with full DPS stats, and sword oath. My goal would be to make him have to bust his ass healing and I would push the highest DPS I could, while holding threat on all mobs. I regularly had less HP than other DPS, and also regularly out-parsed every single person in the group by a fairly sizeable margin. That shit was dicey, but incredibly fun. I've done it with pug healers too, especially if they're trying to do that bullshit afk Fairy heal shit. If I'm working, you're working.

    You're also leaving out the 20 seconds per boss savings too, (arguably more), which adds up to another minute.

    At this point we're talking about a run that has more involvement, speed, and excitement. That sounds like a win to me.

    Here is a direct quote from you:
    Your job is to tank, which is to have the enemies attention and mitigate the incoming damage as much as possible, not deal damage

    Your job as a tank is not binary. A tank is functionally identical to a DPS with the added responsibility of a tank.

    (In no specific order)
    Roles of a DPS:

    1) Kill stuff
    2) Don't die
    3) Minimize damage taken
    4) Switch to adds
    5) Watch threat

    Roles of a tank:
    1) Kill stuff
    2) Don't die
    3) Minimize damage taken
    4) Pick up adds
    5) Hold threat
    6) Position enemies
    7) Provide Utility/Support

    Tanks do everything DPS do and more. They don't do it in less of a priority than others.
    My point is that the tanks primary responsibility is not dealing damage. Obviously, to do the job of a tank you have to hit the mob and therefore deal damage, but that's not your JOB, that's a side effect of fulfilling your primary function; maintaining threat on enemies so they don't go after the Heals or DPS, mob positioning, and reducing damage to both yourself and the group.

    I get that different people play differently, which is fine. However, IMO your play style is needlessly reckless and a little selfish, saving a whole 4 minutes in a dungeon for the sake of YOU feeling better about yourself rather than how the group wants/ likes to play (may or may not be true depending on who you're grouped with, as already stated..different people play differently), making the healer pick up the slack for you playing like a DPS taking way more damage than you should.

    I'm not trying to advocate anyone play a specific way so long as you fulfill your primary function. I prefer smoother runs, you don't...whatever, doesn't matter. Just don't slam, and try not to look down on other people for not playing your way.

  11. #26651
    Quote Originally Posted by granyala View Post
    incorrect.
    50 script buy you a "letter of recommendation blue script". 5 of these letters are needed for 1 sand.
    One sand effectively costs 250 blue script.
    Bugger! XD

    Got mixed up on that. Guess I'll keep farming vilekin after all.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2016-07-06 at 04:40 PM.

  12. #26652
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Got mixed up on that. Guess I'll keep farming vilekin after all.
    Well if you happen to have a gathering prof at 60, look into farming blue script. EZ mode of getting sands w/o being constrained by leve allowances (in case you need those for sth else)

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii
    I prefer smoother runs, you don't...whatever, doesn't matter.
    Umm in my experience: the more DPS -> The faster stuff dies -> the less damage stuff can do before it dies -> the smoother & quicker the run.

    Ofc both tanks and heals need to know when it is sensible to drop grit / go into cleric and when not to.
    A miscalculation on that can mean a wipe, esp in a healers case.

  13. #26653
    On this tanking spat on the current page, I present my approach to tanking:

    - I'm the damage sponge. I need to ensure any and every enemy that should be hitting me is indeed doing just that. I have the most HP, the most armor, all the fancy defensive abilities...put them to use. Which leads to my next point...

    - Manage resources appropriately. Early on at the start, and occasionally throughout fight? Use big emnity generators (I generally start with Power Slash combo, empowered by Dark Arts, then apply Scourge. Big trash pull or incoming tank buster? Use appropriate cooldowns (by that I mean know which ones are for light/moderate damage and which are your "oh shit" buttons). Low on MP? Use either syphon combo; if I've taken damage, Souleater, if the mob uses magic damage (or I don't need healing but want more damage without spending MP on Dark Arts), Delirium. If I have MP to spare and a clear threat lead, DA SE combo for max dps.

    - I only save big cds for boss fights in dungeons, barring something wacky (like the healers who decide to stand behind me when I pull that first pile of hatchling adds after first boss in Sohr Khai...those mobs that have a piercing/cleave effect that passes through me). I've had 2 healers this past week die to that.

    - Emnity is somewhat like an accuracy mark; you only need to sustain a threshold above your best dps. To continue to pile it on is a bit of a waste if you're already a country mile ahead on threat. Personally, I'll admit I probably use my emnity combo more than I need to, but you tend to do that when your RL buddy/dps is ~20 ilvls ahead of your tank gear. I want big dick dps to be able to do big dick dps without worry of their face being ripped off (since most dps classes in this game don't have any mega powerful defensive CDs...yeah, there are some, and they help). So if emnity is a non-issue...

    - Maximize damage output. DA SE combo for single target is our best by far, but uses our MP, so if it starts dipping low, may have to alternate some Delirium combos in, or non DA SE if HP is looking sketchy. Keep Scourge up as much as possible, so long as it ticks for full duration. Carve and Spit only with DA up, barring something really bizzare that dries up MP (like forgetting to turn off Darkside for the walker part of Praetorium and getting to the boss empty...but wouldn't have C&S there anyway). As noted by others, the faster things die, the less damage they can output and less opportunity for them to use big attacks (I love killing Calcabrina before second Dollhouse), thus less damage taken by the tank. Speaking of Calcabrina...there's lots of opportunity for dropping Grit there; initial add phase, during Brace, even while killing Dollhoused players if you're at full HP. I will admit that unless I'm not getting hit at all, I tend to stick to Grit, because me taking less damage and outputting more threat lets real dps go ham and can allow the healer to do the same. If I had to chose between me doing 20% more damage while taking more damage, say from 500 to 600 dps, and a healer going from spam healing me to instead doing 500 dps on their own (alongside my 500 dps while Grit's up)...well that's an easy decision. I suppose if I get one of those "I only heal" healers, I can indeed just drop grit. Perhaps this bit on grit and heal-only healers could be considered resource management.

    None of these are a particular order of importance...it's just stuff I balance in my mind as well as I can when tanking.

  14. #26654
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well if you happen to have a gathering prof at 60, look into farming blue script. EZ mode of getting sands w/o being constrained by leve allowances (in case you need those for sth else)


    Umm in my experience: the more DPS -> The faster stuff dies -> the less damage stuff can do before it dies -> the smoother & quicker the run.

    Ofc both tanks and heals need to know when it is sensible to drop grit / go into cleric and when not to.
    A miscalculation on that can mean a wipe, esp in a healers case.
    This CAN happen. I've been part of several groups where the healer can't keep up with the damage being done to the tank, doesn't get a heal off in time because they're trying to DPS, tank doesn't use the right cooldowns or focuses too heavily on doing damage rather than maintaining threat/ mob positioning and the group wipes...usually more than once. Or if it doesn't it reverts to being a normal, slower paced, less hectic run.

    Yeah, well executed, well organized, well geared, skilled players can do this...quite well and those runs ARE smoother and I'd jump for joy if these were normal. But in my experience these are the exception not the rule.

  15. #26655
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - Manage resources appropriately. Early on at the start, and occasionally throughout fight? Use big emnity generators (I generally start with Power Slash combo, empowered by Dark Arts, then apply Scourge. Big trash pull or incoming tank buster? Use appropriate cooldowns (by that I mean know which ones are for light/moderate damage and which are your "oh shit" buttons). Low on MP? Use either syphon combo; if I've taken damage, Souleater, if the mob uses magic damage (or I don't need healing but want more damage without spending MP on Dark Arts), Delirium. If I have MP to spare and a clear threat lead, DA SE combo for max dps.
    May I suggest not using DA with Power Slash. It brings it up from a x5.5 enmity modifier to x6.5. It's a very meager boost for a lot of MP. You would be better served using the MP for an empowered CaS in your opener and pairing every scourge with a Dark Passenger (I find it's easier that way as their uptime/cooldown time align).

  16. #26656
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    May I suggest not using DA with Power Slash. It brings it up from a x5.5 enmity modifier to x6.5. It's a very meager boost for a lot of MP. You would be better served using the MP for an empowered CaS in your opener and pairing every scourge with a Dark Passenger (I find it's easier that way as their uptime/cooldown time align).
    Where are the numbers from for the emnity generation? To be fair, I assumed it simply doubled the emnity generated.

    Course I am googling around and half the stuff I click on is blocked.

    Edit: Found some info on it. Nvm, it's old stuff for PLD and WAR. Still looking.
    Last edited by Kazgrel; 2016-07-06 at 07:46 PM.

  17. #26657
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-On-The-Edge

    Here's a guide I found on the main site, but where I first found it was an analysis of the different tank enmity modifiers on reddit a couple months back. I can't seem to find it now, but I wish I had bookmarked it.

  18. #26658
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Where are the numbers from for the emnity generation? To be fair, I assumed it simply doubled the emnity generated.
    Naah, not even close. Observe the white bar in your group frame when you use it and you'll barely notice any difference.
    DA-PS is a waste of mana, as PS generates a truckload of treat (way more than you need) on it's own.

    Typically I use PS combo 2-3 times at the start of a boss fight and then switch to the SE combo. Unless the DPS are crazily geared that suffices.

  19. #26659
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-On-The-Edge

    Here's a guide I found on the main site, but where I first found it was an analysis of the different tank enmity modifiers on reddit a couple months back. I can't seem to find it now, but I wish I had bookmarked it.
    Cool; I was looking at an older guide from HW launch, which didn't have emnity specifics listed. Now I'm glad I did that brain dump about my tanking habits! It's my secondary job (BLM being primary), and to be fair, I haven't ever bothered to look at any guides. Definitely not because I'm a know-it-all, that's for sure. I've just played MMOs enough that I figure by reading tooltips that things would make sense...but this game (as far as I know) doesn't give you all the juicy details. Specific example: What abilities are and aren't on GCD. Took me a while to realize Dark Passenger wasn't, heh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Naah, not even close. Observe the white bar in your group frame when you use it and you'll barely notice any difference.
    DA-PS is a waste of mana, as PS generates a truckload of treat (way more than you need) on it's own.

    Typically I use PS combo 2-3 times at the start of a boss fight and then switch to the SE combo. Unless the DPS are crazily geared that suffices.
    Yup. Napkin math using the emnity numbers from the linked thread there would have a PS combo with a DA C&S weaved in coming out 150 emnity ahead, using same amount of MP.

    I need to be more aggressive with using C&S anyway; I have a tendency to want to line it up with Bloodbath so that it also provides that wee additional bit of healing. Then again, using Bloodbath on DRK makes part of my brain go "I now wish I was a WAR so I could overpower spam all these fuckers"...even in a single target situation.

  20. #26660
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    I mostly use C&S as an "Oh shit I fucked up on mana management" button. :X

    The increase in DPS is rather tiny due to it's long ass cooldown. DA'd C&S adds roughly 30 DPS.

    Using as many DA-SEs as you can thanks to blood weapon is the main source of increased DPS when you drop grit.

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