Legion - Subtlety discussion

[tehTyrant]

Why would it be worse lol?

This is the Sub thread, but right now it seems Blizz is trying to force SnD for Outlaw PVE.

Yeah I realized later this was sub thread not outlaw =/

[Deleted]

So is Akaari still not working? Also i take it Shadow Nova is still pretty much trash tier, so Finality is the way to go?

[Mafic]

Why was Alacrity nerfed? Did they allow for stacks to build faster?

If not, I don't understand lol.

[Wow]

Why was Alacrity nerfed? Did they allow for stacks to build faster?

The only faster to it is that it's 20 rather than 25 lol.

[Steelwind]

Why was Alacrity nerfed? Did they allow for stacks to build faster?

If not, I don't understand lol.

It's exactly the same except with 5 fewer stacks (-5% haste). It's a shame the other two talents on the row suck.

If only they nerfed it to 10 stacks, 2% haste each...

[Deleted]

Did a few BG's this eve on Sub. What a fucking mess this is. Not being able to vanish during Shadow Dance, WHAT IS THAT!?

[elfporn]

Is it just me or is nightblade supposed to hit/crit harder than backstab? how did i miss this before? The same for shadowstrike vs eviscerate.

I mean, i know it's only ptr, but still.

[Deleted]

There are better ways to drop damage across the board, and do it more subtlety.

Ohhhh youuuuuuu

[Wow]

Did a few BG's this eve on Sub. What a fucking mess this is. Not being able to vanish during Shadow Dance, WHAT IS THAT!?

Class fantasy

[Deleted]

ass fantasy

I think is more accurate!!

Really hope these numbers begin to even out as nerfs across the board to all rogue specs seem very harsh compared to the amount of damage some other classes are doing. Hopefully we were first on this pass for once. Glad they finally sorted the finality buff out, goes a little way to de-clunkifying the spec. Still can't see myself playing sub over assas however with still no stealth bar and shit like no vanish during dance as well as annoying mechanics like ST that are counter intuitive to the spec.

[kalaratic]

So is Akaari still not working? Also i take it Shadow Nova is still pretty much trash tier, so Finality is the way to go?

after all these builds i've come to the conclusion that akaari is actually working as intended but the tooltip is wrong. so she's supposed to come out, bitch slap the first mob after you log in, and after that she's your cheerleader! the idea is that you want to move after each shadowstrike so you can do cool things like creating a conga line of them, making shapes, and seeing how well you can time your dfa so you can get her as high in the air as possible. they haven't actually implemented the /cheer animation on her but once they do i think they will finally nail the class fantasy with this spec.

[elfporn]

anyone tried changing the binding for bar page 2(stealth bar) to, for example, F4, and then placing shadowdance on that hotkey.

And then changing the bind for bar page 1 (main bar) to 3 (or eviscerate) and alternate bind to F12(which is nightblade for me; pinky finger)

So upon pressing shadow dance the bar pages to 2, and pressing eviscerate/nightblade it pages to 1.

I've got something similar setup to run automatically with shift-Q and shift-E for pages 1/2.

The ptr just went down so i can't test it properly yet

- - - Updated - - -

anyone tried changing the binding for bar page 2(stealth bar) to, for example, F4, and then placing shadowdance on that hotkey.

And then changing the bind for bar page 1 (main bar) to 3 (or eviscerate) and alternate bind to F12(which is nightblade for me; pinky finger)

So upon pressing shadow dance the bar pages to 2, and pressing eviscerate/nightblade it pages to 1.

I've got something similar setup to run automatically with shift-Q and shift-E for pages 1/2.

The ptr just went down so i can't test it properly yet

Nevermind, was able to try it, keybindings only facilitates ctrl, shift, and alt modifiers.

Still fucked on shadowdance paging - the only way to manually page on SD is with 2 keypresses, one to dance, and one to execute page, then a third to page back.

the actual command to bar page is treated like an ability such as backstab with regards to your bars.

Technically you can assign any key to the bar page 1-6 command. so it's an option to alleviate celestalon's bullshit.

Still fuckin stupid tho


EDIT:

/changeactionbar 2
/cast Shadow Dance

and

/changeactionbar 1
/cast Eviscerate

/changeactionbar 1
/cast Nightblade


Those macros work to swap bars. Attach the /changeactionbar 1 to whichever ability/macro you want to use for swapping to main bar.(or make it its own macro) Change the number to whichever bar you want to page to.

In practice you can page to as many bars as you have to spare.
Also, i think the stealth bar default pages to bar 7.

It's a nice workaround.

edit: going further, a castsequence macro for shadowstrike might be able to page on 3rd button press? i'm uncertain. And with using the above macros, if you press evisc/nb (if you have setup like above) while on GCD you can page without executing evisc/nb.

[Steelwind]

Anyone notice Nightstalker was stealth nerfed? 12% damage instead of 15%.

Subterfuge and Shadow Focus are still bad...if only they got buffed.

[elfporn]

Anyone notice Nightstalker was stealth nerfed? 12% damage instead of 15%.

Subterfuge and Shadow Focus are still bad...if only they got buffed.

Yea for some reason they're using talents to balance/tune instead of baseline abilties/scaling. They could just reduce attack power from agi and tune the whole spec down easily.

But instead they use talents. And they wonder why we bitch about talents.

[Blokes]

Anyone notice Nightstalker was stealth nerfed? 12% damage instead of 15%.

Subterfuge and Shadow Focus are still bad...if only they got buffed.

Wait, Subterfuge is bad? I was under the impression it was considered the go to talent in the row. Did this change?

[Steelwind]

Wait, Subterfuge is bad? I was under the impression it was considered the go to talent in the row. Did this change?

The energy to cast 5 spells for the 5 second window of subterfuge isn't really there. You can cleanly get three off with nightstalker.

[Blokes]

The energy to cast 5 spells for the 5 second window of subterfuge isn't really there. You can cleanly get three off with nightstalker.

Are you sure about it this?

With a vigor/premed build, if you pool to 70 energy with MoS, and dance with at least one combo point, you can cast 5 abilities (strike, strike, finisher, strike, strike).

With a DS/Premed, I've found I can fit in 4 abilities, if you dance with 2 CP and 70 energy, you can strike, strike, finisher, strike. If you get the extra relentless strikes proc for the 80 energy refund, you can squeeze in one last strike (this seems to depend on latency. I'll sometime click the button, see the start of the animation and hear the sound of strike, but it won't spend the energy and do the damage)

With DS/Alacrity, after about 12-14 stacks, you can fit in a similar set of casts as a Vigor/Premed, if you dance with at least 3 CP and 70 energy.

This is all from ptr testing and just my personal experience, for what it's worth.

Edit: To clarify, I'm only talking PvE here.

[Zoopercat]

If you follow the other legion rogue threads, sorry for the similar post. But this one has some good Subtlety info, including a Finality explanation.

For those of you running sims on the AMR simulator, I wanted to let you know we just updated the site with the latest beta patch. You can run updated sims on our beta site.

And remember, you can easily verify all of our implementations. For example, Weaponmaster now has a 6% chanced to hit. You can find this in the "Effects" section, listed under the "Triggers" sub section. The Spell Hit chance is listed at 0.06.

Most spells are easy to verify, but a handful are more complicated so I thought I should explain Eviscerate with Finality. So if you scroll toward the bottom and look for the "Buff" section, code name "EviscerateFinalityBuff," you'll see that section is keeping track of whether or not you have the Finality buff. Then, scroll back to the top, and look at the "Save Value" section, then you see the formula there says "If you have the Eviscerate Finality Buff, set the value to 1." So THEN, we go to the Damage section and look at the damage formula. The line that starts with the pale peach "Damage" function... look on the line below that. It says, if that Saved Value for the Eviscerate Finality Buff is 1 (which it is, if you have the buff), then (go to the next line), the damage is 30% higher (shown as 1.3). WHEW! Hope that made sense. I really want to help people understand these things, so more eyes can verify things.

Anyway, browse the spells on the left menu if you want to check out other ones. The idea with this wiki style info is that it's easy(ish) to verify and you can have confidence that things are implemented correctly (or find bugs quickly).

Other updates:

• We have the client program available now (get it here), so you can target lower margins of error. You still use the website to setup sims and view reports, while the client operates in the background to use your own computer's cores.
• We also have all dps set bonuses implemented and about half of the legendaries (working on finishing those this week). Trinkets are still being worked on, so hang tight on those.
• We also moved the consumables out of the rotation and into the options when you setup a simulation.
• A few bug fixes.
• If you have questions, hit us up here, on Discord or our forums. And for help, this page has some resources.
  

[Deleted]

and seeing how well you can time your dfa so you can get her as high in the air as possible. they haven't actually implemented the /cheer animation on her but once they do i think they will finally nail the class fantasy with this spec.

Sounds good, i always wanted my own personal cheerleader! Atleast they go nerfing her before getting her to work tho!

[Steelwind]

Are you sure about it this?

With a vigor/premed build, if you pool to 70 energy with MoS, and dance with at least one combo point, you can cast 5 abilities (strike, strike, finisher, strike, strike).

With a DS/Premed, I've found I can fit in 4 abilities, if you dance with 2 CP and 70 energy, you can strike, strike, finisher, strike. If you get the extra relentless strikes proc for the 80 energy refund, you can squeeze in one last strike (this seems to depend on latency. I'll sometime click the button, see the start of the animation and hear the sound of strike, but it won't spend the energy and do the damage)

With DS/Alacrity, after about 12-14 stacks, you can fit in a similar set of casts as a Vigor/Premed, if you dance with at least 3 CP and 70 energy.

This is all from ptr testing and just my personal experience, for what it's worth.

Edit: To clarify, I'm only talking PvE here.

I'll preface that I too am hypothesizing based off PTR testing, as well as AMR sims.

Based on my own experience and with the sims, it seems that the extra damage on Nightstalker surpasses the extra Shadow Strike you get from taking Subterfuge. The first examples of vigor/premed and DS/premed are also unoptimal talent setups. Premed is subject to wasting CPs (you always have to enter with 1 CP and hope that you don't get a shadow techniques proc, or else waste CP). Vigor falls behind DS (though I happen to love Vigor playstyle).

With enough haste, it may be worth it to go Sub/DS/Alacrity.

Time will tell. I do like how the different talent arrangements alter gameplay just enough that they all feel unique. I hope Blizzard keeps balancing the talents to be close enough that its a matter of taste rather than optimization. I'm a big fan of Sub/Vigor/Premed style also.

- - - Updated - - -

If you follow the other legion rogue threads, sorry for the similar post. But this one has some good Subtlety info, including a Finality explanation.

Nightstalker under Subtlety is displaying +50% damage when it's only +12%.