1. #7521
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    For those of you running sims for Retribution on the AMR simulator, I wanted to let you know we just updated the site with the latest beta patch. You can run updated sims on our beta site.

    And remember, you can easily verify all of our implementations. For example, you can see Blade of Justice is updated to 400% weapon damage. In the "Effects" section, the damage formula starts with 4, which is the 400% damage multiplier.

    Another quick example, Crusader Strike is updated to 210% weapon damage. Again, you'll find this in the damage formula, the first number, 2.1 is the damage multiplier.

    The artifact trait, "Highlord's Judgement" is also updated to increase Judgement damage by 8% (and multiples of 8 for each rank). It's on the Judgement spell page, under the "Damage" section. In the damage formula, look for the pale peach colored trait name, HighlordsJudgement. Then just before it, you see 0.08, for the base 8% multiplier. And then it's being multiplied by the number of ranks in that artifact trait.

    Browse the spells on the left menu if you want to check out other ones. The idea with this wiki style info is that it's easy(ish) to verify and you can have confidence that things are implemented correctly (or find bugs quickly).

    Other updates:
    • We have the client program available now (get it here), so you can target lower margins of error. You still use the website to setup sims and view reports, while the client operates in the background to use your own computer's cores.
    • We also have all dps set bonuses implemented and about half of the legendaries (working on finishing those this week). Trinkets are still being worked on, so hang tight on those.
    • We also moved the consumables out of the rotation and into the options when you setup a simulation.
    • A few bug fixes.
    • If you have questions, hit us up here, on Discord or our forums. And for help, this page has some resources.
    How confident are you with your simulations vs. real life? Are the rotations correct, or are you posting here so we can all check the rotations to ensure their correctness? Would like to know where we stand in terms of accuracy at this point.

  2. #7522
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Can anyone tell me if Divine Steed summons a horse for Draenei and Tauren paladins? Even though they don't normally ride horses?

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  3. #7523
    @ruiizu The mechanics should all be solid (unless ppl find a bug or two). So you can have confidence in that accuracy (as much as you can with anything in a beta I suppose).

    The rotations that are listed as 'template' are starter rotations for people to play with. Ret only has the template rotation right now. If you play with it and make a better one, link it to me and we'll check it out!! Here's a short video on rotations for the simulator, how to share them, and a longer video on how to input one from SimC.

    And here's a link to our current (non-optimized) ret rotation. To play with it, click the copy button to save it to your own profile, then have at it
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  4. #7524
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Can anyone tell me if Divine Steed summons a horse for Draenei and Tauren paladins? Even though they don't normally ride horses?
    No, Draenei and Tauren summon an Elekk or Kodo as their Divine Steed.

    Will be hilarious in raids when Prot Palas suddenly block the view of everyone when they cast their Steed for DR...

  5. #7525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwayne84 View Post
    Will be hilarious in raids when Prot Palas suddenly block the view of everyone when they cast their Steed for DR...
    My Steak will be the mainreason for dead DPs now. "Cpt blocked my view! I had no chance to see the ground effects!" -> Raidlead to me: "Cpt don´t use your kodo in raids anymore"

    20 min later...

    "Cpt I have to replace you with another DPS. Please train moving out of shit!"

  6. #7526
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwayne84 View Post
    No, Draenei and Tauren summon an Elekk or Kodo as their Divine Steed.

    Will be hilarious in raids when Prot Palas suddenly block the view of everyone when they cast their Steed for DR...
    Yep. Kind of awkward either way. I am also reading now that pally's are getting blocked in doorways because mount is too big. But I would also feel weird having my Draenei mount the warhorse he doesn't have (would seem even stranger for Tauren).

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  7. #7527
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Right, good point about CC being the opposite of DPS uptime, as it is something that stops DPS from a target.
    Ok, here is a paradigm for PVP, class A is mobile but susceptible to slows and roots, class B is immobile, but immune to slows and roots, both fight a target with slows and roots, who has more uptime? who deals more dps in that case?
    It's hard to say without more info on their target. For example, if the target can attack whilst moving (eg hunters), you can easily have a situation whereby the snare-immune character always remains at the same distance from the hunter, whereas the snare-vulnerable guy can at least charge him and hit him occasionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    What im thinking is giving ret massive compensation in this regard to allow them to ignore all slows and such, which could wind up making them just as mobile as another class with mobility in their own way, i mean a feral druid running about with 130 ms, but getting slowed to 100 ms would move at the same speed as a pally with 100 ms, of course pally doesnt have dashes or anything, but that is a different problem.
    Yeah this is another option, though as noted above it's more a case of being "anti-anti-mobility" rather than "mobility".

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Yeah this has always bothered me, that half of a players toolkit doesnt work on targets you want to use them on.
    I just mean that if your mobility is based on using CC to close with (or get away from) the enemy, then on CC-immune targets like most dangerous PvE enemies, you're a zero-mobility class.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    I think range is moderately thematic on a ret pally, but i dont want them to become a ranged dps class.
    Blizzard seems to disagree here, and TBH so do I to an extent. I think Ret should be a melee-focused spec (I'll count Blade of Justice & Divine Storm as melee range abilities, because seriously, 8-12 yards is basically melee range when compared to 30-40yd ranged abilities), but I don't mind the odd ranged ability (Exorcism & Judgement, say).

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    paladins on the other hand build resources from uptime, which they are denied, so thats kind of a terrible paradigm, so they are punished double by not having mobility, which isnt very good... being able to pool resources outside of uptime is a really good way to deal with no mobility, but it tends to be something that immobile classes never have. That system lets damage be the same on stationary fights, and also be more useful on mobility fights.
    I and others have in the past advocated for something more like energy, rage, or the like instead of combo points, but Blizz doesn't listen, so hey ho :P .

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Ok, sure its not the same as making it a copy, but if they retain what makes them unique but also get tools that make other classes unique, then the other classes need compensation, so they get defensive CDs or CC or what have you.
    I agree it's a danger, but (again as I've said in the past) I think it's the only way to make things work well. What Blizzard should have done / needs to do is sit down and work out the bare minimum toolkit for every melee spec, every ranged spec, every healer spec, etc. Once each spec has that bare toolkit, then they expand upon these to add flavour. For example:

    Melee DPS Toolkit:
    • Instant gap closer
    • Interrupt (15sec CD, 4sec duration)
    • Small (~20% DR) defensive CD
    • Burst DPS cooldown
    • 1 strong CC
    Once you've filled in that list for each melee spec, you can then vary it. Warriors can get multiple charges of Charge or Heroic Leap to make them extra mobile, but they suffer on the defensive side. On the other hand, Rets get just the one Intercept clone (to use my idea), but have multiple defensive CDs or tools (Divine Shield, Divine Protection, blah blah blah).

    The end result is that every class is viable in PvE and PvP, but there are still plenty of differences between them. "I prefer to support my team more" means play Ret, whereas "I prefer a CC-heavy playstyle" means play Sub rogue or whatever.

    = + =

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    For those of you running sims for Retribution on the AMR simulator, I wanted to let you know we just updated the site with the latest beta patch. You can run updated sims on our beta site.
    Nice, thanks for this .

    One thing I would like to see is a quick summary of downtime - eg longest period with no button pushes, and average period etc. A lot of people are concerned with downtime on Ret (and for all I know maybe other classes/specs too), and being able to compare different rotations to find the one with the best score in this regard would be handy.

    I know there's the log output, but AFAIK I can't filter that to view just what I'm looking for.
    Last edited by Teleros; 2016-07-07 at 10:06 AM.

  8. #7528
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ruiizu View Post
    How confident are you with your simulations vs. real life? Are the rotations correct, or are you posting here so we can all check the rotations to ensure their correctness? Would like to know where we stand in terms of accuracy at this point.
    Well... you will be happy to know that the numbers are much closer than before. No longer huge gaps.

    Some people have put in question the rotation here so they have safeguarded their rear ends. But i don't think there is even a rotation priority list set in stone yet, depite some people here coming very sure of themselves saying they know what is best.
    Without sim's it's not something that can easily be found out, especially with Blizzard changing cooldowns every week.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-07-07 at 11:11 AM.

  9. #7529
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    ...
    Nice job here !
    Wondering one thing : is it possible with the sims to add one information, as "empty GCD time", which would correspond to the time where the GCD is off, but nothing to do as all other abilities on cooldown.
    It could be an interesting stats to compare amongst class / spec

  10. #7530
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's hard to say without more info on their target. For example, if the target can attack whilst moving (eg hunters), you can easily have a situation whereby the snare-immune character always remains at the same distance from the hunter, whereas the snare-vulnerable guy can at least charge him and hit him occasionally.
    Well the concept was supposed to be in a vacuum, just comparing movespeed, slows and slow immunity, when i mentioned dashes being another problem, i just meant that this concept may not apply to that.

    Yeah this is another option, though as noted above it's more a case of being "anti-anti-mobility" rather than "mobility".
    Well its compensation for the fact that abilities that counter mobility are even more punishing to classes with no mobility to begin with, so the benefit of not having mobility is that those abilities no longer apply to you, which i think is just a really thematic and sound compensation, of course they have hand of freedom which i guess fills that role

    I just mean that if your mobility is based on using CC to close with (or get away from) the enemy, then on CC-immune targets like most dangerous PvE enemies, you're a zero-mobility class.
    Yeah i recognize that, and it feels rather crappy, but i have just been tinkering with an idea to deal with that.
    Passive - you cant escape justice: When hammer of justice is cast, if the spell is resisted or dispelled, the paladin gains X% (50? 100?) movespeed toward that target.
    This way, the paladin can reliably use this spell to gap close on bosses that resist it, making it less of a useless ability in PvE while also ensuring that his stun will always help him engage on his target in PvP. The paladin still isnt a mobile class, the playstyle still revolves around CC and trudging inexorably towards their targets, but is compensated when CC is countered. Its also really thematic, as hammer of justice could be considered apprehending a target, and if they escape the paladin would be forced to run them down.

    Blizzard seems to disagree here, and TBH so do I to an extent. I think Ret should be a melee-focused spec (I'll count Blade of Justice & Divine Storm as melee range abilities, because seriously, 8-12 yards is basically melee range when compared to 30-40yd ranged abilities), but I don't mind the odd ranged ability (Exorcism & Judgement, say).
    Ok, yeah when i said range, i meant more range than just melee, i wouldnt go 40 yard range, but 20 yard for parts of their kit i think are fine, basically the way judgement and blade of justice function (perhaps more range on BoJ) that allows them to swap targets without needing to sprint for half a mile.

    I and others have in the past advocated for something more like energy, rage, or the like instead of combo points, but Blizz doesn't listen, so hey ho :P .
    Rage has similar problems, its a resource built by sticking to the target and functions more similar to combo points than energy, runes on the other hand function more like energy. Ironically the classes that use energy are the classes that probably dont really need it. Classes with high uptime should have the resources based on uptime while the classes with disparity in their uptime should have the more buffer based resources. An immobile ret with energy would function great, the holy power thing though not so much, though charges on crusader go a long way

    I agree it's a danger, but (again as I've said in the past) I think it's the only way to make things work well. What Blizzard should have done / needs to do is sit down and work out the bare minimum toolkit for every melee spec, every ranged spec, every healer spec, etc. Once each spec has that bare toolkit, then they expand upon these to add flavour. For example:

    Melee DPS Toolkit:
    • Instant gap closer
    • Interrupt (15sec CD, 4sec duration)
    • Small (~20% DR) defensive CD
    • Burst DPS cooldown
    • 1 strong CC
    Once you've filled in that list for each melee spec, you can then vary it. Warriors can get multiple charges of Charge or Heroic Leap to make them extra mobile, but they suffer on the defensive side. On the other hand, Rets get just the one Intercept clone (to use my idea), but have multiple defensive CDs or tools (Divine Shield, Divine Protection, blah blah blah).
    Yeah i had an idea of something like this, starting off with a basic kit and adding and subtracting to ensure that things are balanced. I think its a good start to balance ranged vs melee, especially when you take into account that range is a benefit that either requires a drawback (cast times) or melee get a bonus (Bonus CC, bonus mobility, bonus whatever)

    The end result is that every class is viable in PvE and PvP, but there are still plenty of differences between them. "I prefer to support my team more" means play Ret, whereas "I prefer a CC-heavy playstyle" means play Sub rogue or whatever.
    There are situations though, as discussed, where utility isnt as useful in PvE as PvP. In PvE, DPS classes only care about maximizing damage, they dont give a fuck about CC immunity or CC itself (sorry ret paladins!) which leaves some classes feeling like they are missing out. So i suppose that converting CC or other utility into mobility (like the stun to MS conversion i mentioned before) would fill in the gaps with all that. So i dont believe every class needs a gap closer, but they may all need something to compensate. PvP talents can also stop gap some of that.

    really appreciate this discussion though, you have to be the most polite person i think i have ever had the pleasure of discussing with on these forums, cheers.

  11. #7531
    I just found out that on Beta if we use our Holy pony and get pollied by a mage, it dismounts you, even if u trinket it right away. Not sure if its a bug or intended by Blizzard another way to give mages a upper hand to Fuk over Rets >.<

  12. #7532
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    I just found out that on Beta if we use our Holy pony and get pollied by a mage, it dismounts you, even if u trinket it right away. Not sure if its a bug or intended by Blizzard another way to give mages a upper hand to Fuk over Rets >.<
    It's only a bug if it doesn't end, say, Sprint. Mechanically there's no real difference between that and Derpony, so you should see polymorphed rogues forcibly exiting sprint.

  13. #7533
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    It's only a bug if it doesn't end, say, Sprint. Mechanically there's no real difference between that and Derpony, so you should see polymorphed rogues forcibly exiting sprint.
    ah nice, it would really suck if it was not just a bug. thx =) for info

  14. #7534
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    Thanks Teleros, Kabsal and Snegovik for your answers.

    Kabsal, I'll try that on my next test-on dummy!
    That's basically what I was already doing. Like you, I do FV/TFoJ/BOW/JV/DP in talents (as for ST)! I tried ES, it's different and I don't have a hard time placing them but meh... I'm not so fan. And I'm lazy.

    Snegovik, that's really good to know for PvP, thank you! That's a damn shame we can't have at least on little thing to boost our running speed...

  15. #7535
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Well... you will be happy to know that the numbers are much closer than before. No longer huge gaps.

    Some people have put in question the rotation here so they have safeguarded their rear ends. But i don't think there is even a rotation priority list set in stone yet, depite some people here coming very sure of themselves saying they know what is best.
    Without sim's it's not something that can easily be found out, especially with Blizzard changing cooldowns every week.
    Well with TFOJ nerf(Without any haste mind you) CS is 3.5 second CD which is still slower then what I have on live. From what I remember, on heroism/bl phases I can go past that. I would of been satisfied with a 3.00 CD for CS. Now with Blade of Justice at a even higher cooldown(10 seconds nearing Judgement AGAIN). Blade of Wrath is 7.5 or something like that. So Blade of Wrath is still better for a more fluid rotation regardless of damage.

    So in theory as I have been told Haste will be valued A LOT. Which again, in theory is good. Unfortunately we're dependent on it. Old news but reiterating it is important.

    I also wouldn't give a damn so much if Reforging was still a thing. That's our rotation stuff down.


    I can expect the gap between other dpsers won't be so big.



    Or I hope anyways.



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  16. #7536
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    are you comparing a non hasted CS to a bloodlust, haste buff, AND geared CS? that actually makes zero sense if thats what you are talking about.

    i dont think people understand that the 1.5 second CD reduction on tFoJ was beyond overkill. the change to make it down to 1 second reduction still allows the for same function. literally with the old talent you were wasting so much power on the CD reduction of which was wasted because at no point did you NEED all that time cut off. you just ended up swimming in CS charges. Remember the thing about charges is that if your not capped on them your fine. the old tFoJ talent made it impossible to ever keep the charges low so it was wasting talent budget on that factor.
    In all reality, tFoJ got buffed slightly since the damage of CS was increased by a decent number while also the nerfs which landed on tFoJ talent where actually meaningless. Another indirect buff to the talent is now you can chose virtue's blade and are not swimming in cooldown clashes.

  17. #7537
    Quote Originally Posted by Reghame View Post
    are you comparing a non hasted CS to a bloodlust, haste buff, AND geared CS? that actually makes zero sense if thats what you are talking about.

    i dont think people understand that the 1.5 second CD reduction on tFoJ was beyond overkill. the change to make it down to 1 second reduction still allows the for same function. literally with the old talent you were wasting so much power on the CD reduction of which was wasted because at no point did you NEED all that time cut off. you just ended up swimming in CS charges. Remember the thing about charges is that if your not capped on them your fine. the old tFoJ talent made it impossible to ever keep the charges low so it was wasting talent budget on that factor.
    In all reality, tFoJ got buffed slightly since the damage of CS was increased by a decent number while also the nerfs which landed on tFoJ talent where actually meaningless. Another indirect buff to the talent is now you can chose virtue's blade and are not swimming in cooldown clashes.
    I'm speaking from my personal experience, but for me they hurt the build I was enjoying. I was running Virtue's Blade and Zeal, and now having the two together plays incredibly poorly. Before I was occasionally getting some open GCDs with Zeal+Virtue's Blade, now I get them virtually every cycle without fail. I'm forced to either pick Blade of Wrath or the Fires of Justice to have a functional rotation, meaning I'm no longer the "big hits" spec I wanted to be.

    I will say the buff to Zeal damage makes it slightly more tolerable since Zeal hits so damn hard (it was doing almost as much as BoJ pre-maxed Artifact). It's still not a choice I enjoy and I haven't yet decided if I want the hard hitting Crusader Strike or the hard hitting Blade.

    Btw Reg thank you for clarifying the change to Consecration. If the coefficient per tick hasn't changed then it is indeed a buff to usability because of the reduced GCD requirement. However I strongly feel they need a Glyph of the Consecrator with a longer duration as it becomes really punishing when targets move.

  18. #7538
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    ah nice, it would really suck if it was not just a bug. thx =) for info
    Uhm, I've no beta access so I can't be certain. If it's cancelling sprint for rogues, then everything at least working consistently. If rogues can continue sprinting when polymorphed but Rets lose Derpony, then it's a bug.

    Need someone to test it though.

  19. #7539
    I feel that a Glyph of the Consecrator equivalent seems like overkill. If we had that, then Consecration and Divine Hammer would fill pretty much the exact same niche of "you pulse steady AoE damage around you wherever you are". And to be honest, DH is better for that purpose due to HP generation. Consecration's there to award you for moments where you can stand your ground and commit to AoEing the location. That's how it was when Ret had Cons back in Wrath and Cata.

    Legitimate discussion question: how often is it that we really need the AoE of Cons over Final Verdict where we're so much on the run chasing mobs that we NEED it to move with us, as opposed to a worst case where they're in the AoE for halfish duration? To me it seems that there aren't really any bosses I can think of in HFC where that's true. And if the answer is "chasing trash packs during chain pulling", then you're in a position of being overgeared enough to not really need the extra damage.

  20. #7540
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Even if they brought back TFOJ to 1.5 CD reduction you still wouldn't *Swim* in CS charges but I feel that's an exaggeration. With Blade of Justice having a super long CD now(10.5 seconds). That's almost the same amount of time on waiting for a Judgement to come off CD.


    Sure haste will help but...again it may be only until absurd levels of Haste where *Everythings fine*



    >.>
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2016-07-07 at 09:01 PM.
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