Does Havoc build variety still exist?

[nephilim522]

I've been considering maining a DH once legion hits and unfortunately with no access to the beta, my exposure to the class is somewhat limited. I just finished watching FinalBossTV's 1st pass on the Havoc DH spec and what really jumped out at me was the various build options the spec had with its talents. Being able to have a momentum/movement based build, or a build based around popping into metamorphosis for short bursts and getting as much out of that as possible, or a build based on aoe and warglaive tossing was really interesting and seemed like what this talent system was originally designed to do. It gave the impression of a single spec having multiple ways to play it, almost similar to diablo 3 class builds. This was especially exciting after hearing about how boring and simple the havoc spec was from various sources.

Of course, that video came out 3 months ago, and it looks like things have changed drastically on the beta which is to be expected. Talents have shifted around quite a bit and my fear is that the talents will revert to be the same as every other spec. Most specs have individual talents that may be interesting or slightly change how the rotation works, but there isn't a large synergy between multiple talents that truly modifies the play-style of the class.

For those of you that have beta and have been playing a havoc demon hunter, can you confirm if this is still the case, or have the talents devolved into same-y talents in each tier, with a couple standout talents and a mostly cookie-cutter "best" choice for single target or AoE?

[Vanyali]

There's three builds, each with a specific niche. They can be expanded on a little bit, but generally have a few "core" abilities that don't get shifted.

Single Target:

Chaos Blades Build

Fel Mastery - Demon Blades (Can be swapped with Demonic Appetite) - Felblade (can be swapped with bloodlet; becomes more viable with legendary ring) - Soul Rending - Nemesis (core) - Demon Reborn (core)- Chaos Blades (core)


2-3 Target:

Bloodlet build (NOTE: this build still needs more testing and mathing. but it's been working fairly well for me compared to a guildie of comparable skill with CBlades build)

Chaos Cleave - Demonic Appetite (can be swapped with Demon Blades, but rotation becomes stagnant) - Bloodlet (core) - Soul Rending - Fel Eruption (core) - Master of the Glaive (core) - Fel Barrage (pending tuning; possibly swappable with Demonic should the charge system remain the way it is)

3+ Target:

Momentum Build

Fel Mastery (core) - Prepared (core) - First Blood (can be swapped with Felblade) - Soul Rending - Momentum (core) - Player Choice; none impact this spec meaningfully - Demonic (core)


You can, of course, do things like a Demonic / Nemesis build.. it'll work, it's just not as effective. Those are the two biggies that people have been using (Bloodlet build is new, as noted, and more people need to try it to see if it's actually working as well as I think it is), and tend to have the most synergy.


We do have a bunch of builds, and look to be dynamically shifting talents between fights which is either going to be super annoying or super fun depending on results. DH have a pretty strong place in most types of fights with the variety of builds, though

[Deleted]

ST top build is currently:

FM > DB > FB > SR > FE > DR > Demonic (DB can be swapped for Prepared if you enjoy vengeful retreating out and fel blading back in to generate fury)

[Ribesal]

There's three builds, each with a specific niche. They can be expanded on a little bit, but generally have a few "core" abilities that don't get shifted.

I would say theres atleast a fourth one:

Chaos Cleave (if demonic appetite doesn't work on cleave, or theres only 1 target -> Blind Fury)
Demonic Appetite
Firstblood
Soul Rending
Fel Eruption/Nemesis
Unleashed Fury
Demonic

which relies on soul generating, since the artifact trait "Feast on the Souls" reduces the remaining cooldown from Eye Beam and Chaos Nova by 5 seconds for every collected soul fragment

Don't know if this is good for raid encounters, but for dungeons or questing it seems to be very good, especially for questing

[nephilim522]

Awesome. I'm so relieved to hear that so much variety still exists, possibly even more since that video was released. Not sure why everyone is talking about how simple or boring the spec is.

[Vanyali]

I would say theres atleast a fourth one:

Chaos Cleave (if demonic appetite doesn't work on cleave, or theres only 1 target -> Blind Fury)
Demonic Appetite
Firstblood
Soul Rending
Fel Eruption/Nemesis
Unleashed Fury
Demonic

which relies on soul generating, since the artifact trait "Feast on the Souls" reduces the remaining cooldown from Eye Beam and Chaos Nova by 5 seconds for every collected soul fragment

Don't know if this is good for raid encounters, but for dungeons or questing it seems to be very good, especially for questing

Build has no real synergy and takes Blind Fury (useless, as noted; unless EB gets a buff it's a dead talent). Only utility is in UP and Demonic, which you can get much better in the Momentum build

Has something changed with demon blades recently? last i checked it was a dps loss, and should never really be taken in any situation at all?

It's never been a dps loss, it's just far been far more annoying than it was worth to use.

[FlemmMinis]

So I tested a bit and I have to say... Demonblades don't seem to procc the felblade effect really often. Demonic bite seems to be more effective.

[Accendor]

This was already discussed a hundred times in the havoc discussion thread and was already proven wrong. Felblade proc rate is the same with Demonblades.

[Redmage]

So I tested a bit and I have to say... Demonblades don't seem to procc the felblade effect really often. Demonic bite seems to be more effective.

This skill really needs to be removed, what is blizzard smoking thinking that standing around auto attacking is at all interesting gameplay? Even Vanilla warriors didn't just auto attack that much.

[Dimzum]

This skill really needs to be removed, what is blizzard smoking thinking that standing around auto attacking is at all interesting gameplay? Even Vanilla warriors didn't just auto attack that much.

The talent is fine. If you don't like it, don't use it. With a chaos blades/nemesis/fel blade build I have found using demon blades actually has me swimming in resources to where i almost can't spend fury fast enough if I don't plan it right.

[Deleted]

no variety tbh.

you have 2 options, momentum build or the nemesis build.

[nephilim522]

This skill really needs to be removed, what is blizzard smoking thinking that standing around auto attacking is at all interesting gameplay? Even Vanilla warriors didn't just auto attack that much.

I finally got beta access a couple of days ago and I have to agree on this. It might be the worst talent I've ever seen in wow. I understand wanting to have a talent that allows people to avoid the spamminess of demon's bite, but this is the wrong way to do it. A good fix would be to follow what the shaman talent Boulderfist is doing. If you don't want to spam Rockbiter constantly, you can take Boulderfist which hits a bit harder and generates more maelstrom but is limited with a cooldown and max 2 charges. This slows the shaman rotation down a bit and gives it room to breathe rather than hitting a button every GCD, but doesn't leave you with no button to press for resource generation.

[Dimzum]

I finally got beta access a couple of days ago and I have to agree on this. It might be the worst talent I've ever seen in wow.

Not to be picky, if you just got access a couple of days ago, have you got to 110 and tried out all the different builds with Demon's Blades? It's a terrible talent for leveling, and really only shines when you start getting gear that doesn't require you to spam Demon's Bite because of your fury generation from Chaos Strike refunds.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

How does a fucking auto attack talent "shine"? Honestly no one but idiots are buying what you are selling.

This trash needs to be removed. It will be removed, once the majority of the playerbase gets their hands on the class and sees what an atrocity it is, especially if it ever becomes mandatory for raiding. Can't wait for boot lickers to get blown out.

Infraction: Flaming

[Dimzum]

So much anger and hostility.

[MightyWarrior]

I agree. I somehow got beta last night and Demon Blades is wank in every situation. There is no fun in auto attacking at all...

[Raybron]

I agree. I somehow got beta last night and Demon Blades is wank in every situation. There is no fun in auto attacking at all...

I am totally with this. Demon Blades has to be the worst talent option I have seen for any class I have played on the beta. I can't even fathom how sitting there Auto-attacking is fun gameplay.

[Jakkhel]

I won't argue about how strong it is, but I don't think I'll ever take it, even if I do have to suffer a DPS loss. If it's between having an extra button to push to build resources, or having more emphasis be put on auto attacks, I'm going to go with the button. It's a little more interesting and it feels like I'm doing something. Passive damage was my biggest complaint about rogues and warriors.

I'm happy there's the option for people who prefer that gameplay, but I really hope it's not better. I feel like this talent is one of the biggest indications that something is wrong in Blizzard's design.

EDIT: I do wonder though, if you go with Felblade over First Blood, does this bump Blade Dance to no longer be worth the Fury on single target? It's a really neat spell that I like to use, so I might forgo the additional mobility in favour of FB. Though I'm not sure how the Fury is like at 110 so it may not be worth trading a builder/gap closer for a spender.

[TheLimonTree]

I haven't mathed how effective this is but one I enjoy and seem to do well enough in heroics is what I call the Snap Shot build:
fel mastery
Prepared
Bloodlet
Any
Momentum
Fel Barrage.

The whole point is to use your momentum to boost throw glave, which then works as a pseudo snapshot for the dot, and follow after with a fel barrage when 3+ charges. Really great for multi target fights and trash.

[Deleted]

Can someone explain how to play the momentum build, im trying to wrap my head around what my priorities are and how to maximise the uptime of the buff, but im not getting too far with it.