Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Deleted]

checking normal logs from ED from this morning and it seems rogues and enh still quite a ways ahead of everyone else...

Not really.

[XZlayeD]

This patch however did not address the main issues with the build, seeing as mastery is now even worse than before, the only aoe we have is to singletarget rupture, and 60%+ of our damage is coming from one dot ability.

Having more transparency from a class forum moderator would really help but a lot of these speculations at ease, but seeing as these patches comes out without any context it just seems to make matters worse instead of improving.

[Smeski]

There is now a 35% chance to trigger BotA when applying Rupture.(it triggers from application, not ticks) Before it was 1 RPPM.

Ah interesting, thanks for letting me know!

[XZlayeD]

I wonder if it's worth using rupture every time available now simply to proc the 100% increased damage done instead of envenom, and only envenom when you've got the debuff up

Edit: I've just done x3 250m dmg tests on dummies where I did rupture every time the cd was less than 8 seconds and didn't reapply it other than exanguinate, and therefore use envenom every other finisher (roughly) which resulted in 280k. At second attempt I used envenom everytime I had exanguinate to use excess energy which resulted in 285k dmg, and last attempt i removed envenom alltogether from my bars and only used cp's to refresh rupture by spamming it at 6cp's to proc BotA more often which resulted in 272k dps.

Basically the new 35% chance on BotA has made rupture spam within 4% damage margin of not using envenom at all in your build, further rendering mastery a complete and utter trash stat.

[Zoopercat]

If you follow the other legion rogue threads, sorry for the similar post. Would rather over than under-communicate.

For those of you running sims on the AMR simulator, I wanted to let you know we just updated the site with the latest beta patch. You can run updated sims on our beta site.

And remember, you can easily verify all of our implementations. For example, Alacrity is updated to stack only 20 times. If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you'll see an "Effects" section, and under that the "Stacking" effect. Max Stacks is listed as 20.

Browse the spells on the left menu if you want to check out other ones. The idea with this wiki style info is that it's easy(ish) to verify and you can have confidence that things are implemented correctly (or find bugs quickly).

Other updates:

• We have the client program available now (get it here), so you can target lower margins of error. You still use the website to setup sims and view reports, while the client operates in the background to use your own computer's cores.
• We also have all dps set bonuses implemented and about half of the legendaries (working on finishing those this week). Trinkets are still being worked on, so hang tight on those.
• We also moved the consumables out of the rotation and into the options when you setup a simulation.
• A few bug fixes.
• If you have questions, hit us up here, on Discord or our forums. And for help, this page has some resources.
  

[hlodvig1505]

Did anyone actually provide a complete feedback on our spec to US blizz forums? It looks like we're getting changes to whatever should not be changed at all.
We have decent dps until they nerf rupture damage (actually they already did nerf DS and EP making us choose hemo). As soon as they nerf it, we're going down.

Imo, they should nerf the base bleed damage and make it benefit from mastery. That would fit the class fantasy (we already have Venomous Wounds/Venom Rush i.e. we poison the target along with bleeds).
I'd like it to be Destro lock style when single mastery buffs both builder and spender spells:
Mastery: Potent Poisons
Increases the damage done by your poisons by 28%.
Increases the Bleed damage done by 8%

Either way they have to somehow turn our bleeds into poisons (BoTa change?) or we're stuck like WW monks in HFC having only one stat to scale with and then just stacking vers for flat damage.

[XZlayeD]

Zoopercat, can beta-realm characters be tested in the same fashion? It would be nice to be able to compare results whilst using the program.

[minteK917]

The slight inconvenian of stacking crit instead of mastery..... we will live. We could be worse, instead we are the most well rounded specs that can currently do anything in the game fairly good, even soloing stuff. I rather they touch it as little as possible more, before they nerf it into the ground just for fucking stats points allocation. When they take away stuff, we never know if we get anything back in return.... so when we arent shit, just leave it alone.

I rather the spec remain flawled good, then perfect garbage.

[hlodvig1505]

The slight inconvenian of stacking crit instead of mastery..... we will live. We could be worse, instead we are the most well rounded specs that can currently do anything in the game fairly good, even soloing stuff. I rather they touch it as little as possible more, before they nerf it into the ground just for fucking stats points allocation. When they take away stuff, we never know if we get anything back in return.... so when we arent shit, just leave it alone.

I rather the spec remain flawled good, then perfect garbage.

Even now people say that we get behind by 850 ilvl as we're hardly scaling with anything but crit. We are not bad but other specs/classes will eventually outscale us since they have more than 1 useful stat (except for vers).

[shaunika123]

The slight inconvenian of stacking crit instead of mastery..... we will live. We could be worse, instead we are the most well rounded specs that can currently do anything in the game fairly good, even soloing stuff. I rather they touch it as little as possible more, before they nerf it into the ground just for fucking stats points allocation. When they take away stuff, we never know if we get anything back in return.... so when we arent shit, just leave it alone.

I rather the spec remain flawled good, then perfect garbage.

honestly i prefer having to stack crit, at least we get way more CPs this way
whenever assa rogues have crit as their best stat their gameplay just becomes more fluid

[Vyrze]

honestly i prefer having to stack crit, at least we get way more CPs this way
whenever assa rogues have crit as their best stat their gameplay just becomes more fluid

Even if they reallocated damage to poisons to make mastery better Crit would probably still be our best stat because of the change to Seal of Fate.

[Tato23]

I dont have the beta but you guys that have it and done alot of raid/dungeon testing. Could you be so kind and rate how you think
the rogue perform against all these various dps situations: (lets act like we are in a raid enviroment so fights are your typical 5-6m+

Single target
2 target cleave
3 target cleave
Burst aoe (5 or more)
Sustainal aoe (5 or more)
Survivability
good damage on fast add target switching

(To clarify the last one, how fast a rogue can switch to adds for example and deal good damage to them considering they might not live for a very long time. mm hunters for example usually are extremely good at fast target switching adds while something like feral might be weak due dots etc. So how does rogue perform on this?

Please lastly, rate them using this formula:

Top tier = one of the strongest speccs at it.
2nd tier = Strong at it but not one of the strongest.
3rd tier = not that strong but not the weakest either.
4rd tier = One of the weakest speccs in the game against it.

This was copied from the DH havoc thread, but I loved the idea of it, and I wanted to see what you guys thought about rogue with this template! YES i know tuning is still gonna happen, but I was curious how it is standing now during beta.

[minteK917]

Even now people say that we get behind by 850 ilvl as we're hardly scaling with anything but crit. We are not bad but other specs/classes will eventually outscale us since they have more than 1 useful stat (except for vers).

Every single class forums claims they scales worse then everyone else. Go to the ret paladin forum, most of their spell is now Weapon damage based, meaning it scales better then AP and artifact weapon always being high ilevel then your gear, meaning it scales even more. Yet their forum still has the same idiots talking about poor scaling. Poor scaling is math, they could make a class that could hate all secondary stats and still scale well, because of a overtuned % modifier on spells.

Assa damage is doing fine in all aspect of the game.

[Ravec]

I dont have the beta but you guys that have it and done alot of raid/dungeon testing. Could you be so kind and rate how you think
the rogue perform against all these various dps situations: (lets act like we are in a raid enviroment so fights are your typical 5-6m+

Single target
2 target cleave
3 target cleave
Burst aoe (5 or more)
Sustainal aoe (5 or more)
Survivability
good damage on fast add target switching

(To clarify the last one, how fast a rogue can switch to adds for example and deal good damage to them considering they might not live for a very long time. mm hunters for example usually are extremely good at fast target switching adds while something like feral might be weak due dots etc. So how does rogue perform on this?

Please lastly, rate them using this formula:

Top tier = one of the strongest speccs at it.
2nd tier = Strong at it but not one of the strongest.
3rd tier = not that strong but not the weakest either.
4rd tier = One of the weakest speccs in the game against it.

This was copied from the DH havoc thread, but I loved the idea of it, and I wanted to see what you guys thought about rogue with this template! YES i know tuning is still gonna happen, but I was curious how it is standing now during beta.

Single target - top tier

2 target cleave - top tier

3 target cleave - top tier

Burst aoe (5 or more) - non existant.

Sustainal aoe (5 or more) - 3rd tier, maybe 2nd depending on wether or not you can apply rupture and have it tick the full duration on all targets.

Survivability - 2nd tier

good damage on fast add target switching - non existant.

[shaunika123]

Single target
2 target cleave
3 target cleave
Burst aoe (5 or more)
Sustainal aoe (5 or more)
Survivability
good damage on fast add target switching

.

single target: 1st tier(may only be 2nd after the nerfs not sure yet)
2 target cleave: 1st tier(probably the best spec at this in the game)
3 target cleave: 1st tier
burst aoe: 4th tier
sustainal AOE: i'd say 2,5 maybe not as good as 2 but not as bad as 3
survivability 1st tier, feint, crimson vial and cheat death are fantastic
good damage on fast add target switching: 1st tier if exsang is up otherwise it's 3rd tier


this is only for assa mind you, havent tested the others really ( i refuse to play sub with how it currently is and i never liked combat and OL is the same in different costume)

[Tato23]

single target: 1st tier(may only be 2nd after the nerfs not sure yet)
2 target cleave: 1st tier(probably the best spec at this in the game)
3 target cleave: 1st tier
burst aoe: 4th tier
sustainal AOE: i'd say 2,5 maybe not as good as 2 but not as bad as 3
survivability 1st tier, feint, crimson vial and cheat death are fantastic
good damage on fast add target switching: 1st tier if exsang is up otherwise it's 3rd tier


this is only for assa mind you, havent tested the others really ( i refuse to play sub with how it currently is and i never liked combat and OL is the same in different costume)

so you say best spec in the game for 2 cleave, is that just double rupture on both targets?

[Ravec]

so you say best spec in the game for 2 cleave, is that just double rupture on both targets?

Yes, this is the only portion of our damage that makes cleave dps possible.

[shaunika123]

so you say best spec in the game for 2 cleave, is that just double rupture on both targets?

basically yes
since rupture+deadly poison is like 40% of our damage it's basically 40% dmg on our offtarget AND more energy regen which translates into more dmg and more envenom uptime on our main target.

[Zoopercat]

@XZlayeD - yes, you totally can test this with your actual beta characters. You'll need our BETA addon (found here). Then you need to open your artifact weapon interface (like you're going to pick some nodes). That needs to be open for the addon to read it, it's the only way to do that in game right now. Then you can get the export string in the addon, and paste it into the site. When you load a character on the beta site, there's an option on the far right of the character menu, to paste stuff from the addon.

[Creatinebrah]

are they? you win like 20-25 seconds between each vendetta, it's not that fantastic, and you might have to stagger vendettas anyway to sync with exsangu+kingsbane

im not saying they're bad, but other classes have much better legendaries :P
im willing to bet on a lot of fights the one that gives extra bleed dmg on low hp targets is gonna be better

current updated AMR shows a massive increase in ST DPS with those boots. those boots are possibly the one of the best DPS legendary items in the game atm (For ST at least)