[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Jotaux]

Its taking some getting used to for the longer cd on doom winds. I didn't realize how much I relied on it to replenish my maelstrom.

[wordup]

with the nerf to bounderfist can any1 tell if its back to asendance now oir if hte talent(s) are still worth taking?

Rockbiter was nerfed more than Boulderfist, so the alternate talents are still significantly worse.

[Darleth]

with the nerf to bounderfist can any1 tell if its back to asendance now oir if hte talent(s) are still worth taking?

Why shouldn't they be worth taking? Ascendance is still 5k~ behind Landslide. 8% Agility all the time against some Maelstrom Gain and burst damage every 3 minutes is still strong. Didn't test earthen spike, cant really say anything about it.
Boulderfist is still king in the Lv15 row as far as I can tell.

[Hivey]

Why shouldn't they be worth taking? Ascendance is still 5k~ behind Landslide. 8% Agility all the time against some Maelstrom Gain and burst damage every 3 minutes is still strong. Didn't test earthen spike, cant really say anything about it.
Boulderfist is still king in the Lv15 row as far as I can tell.

Earthen Spike was buffed a patch or two ago though.

[nazrakin]

Earthen Spike was buffed a patch or two ago though.

Its still behind as well.

[Creatinebrah]

Its still behind as well.

earth spike and landslide are so close together. 257,416.2081 (LS) vs 256,597.9323 (ES) according to wordups calc

wouldn't really consider that to be behind since it's so close

[Kaljurei]

If the difference is so close it's good, you take Landslide for AOE/non-burst scenarios and Earth Spike for burst scenarios. Simple as that.

Talents have to be competitive with each other in such a way so that taking them in a certain scenario means that you'll get better performance. If the DPS difference in a patchwerk scenario(which is unrealistic for the most part) is negligible, then Blizzard has already achieved their purpose.

[Hekili]

Earthen Spike really ought to be tuned for higher DPS potential than Landslide, if it will retain the downside that it penalizes target swapping. The skillcap involved would be making sure to use it vs. the highest health enemy you're engaged with in AOE situations, to try to avoid having the enemy die with the debuff.

[nazrakin]

Earthen Spike really ought to be tuned for higher DPS potential than Landslide, if it will retain the downside that it penalizes target swapping. The skillcap involved would be making sure to use it vs. the highest health enemy you're engaged with in AOE situations, to try to avoid having the enemy die with the debuff.

Exactly. ES is both much less versatile while also being far more prone to "failures" in practice, the only way to properly balance that is if ES has a higher potential output.

[seamusmc]

This video greatly helped. I'm only halfway through watching it, but I can already see the spec become much more fun the more your Doomhammer is unlocked. Especially Doom Wolves/Alpha Wolf talents make the spec feel like what it should feel like. I can only hope there is a way to have Feral Spirits up more often (T17 bonus kind of way).

Also a bit tempted to copy my Shaman to Beta and start playing there and test it out more. I wonder how much of the Doomhammer I'm able to unlock during leveling? Up to Doom Wolves at least?

I've played Enhancement Shaman since MoP, I always thought it more like an Elementalist than a Battle Mage, which seems to be it's "spec fantasy" in Legion. Summoning Elementals and Feral Spirits were really important to me, it's not difficult to understand why I enjoyed the spec most during WoD (T17 bonuses).

You will get one unlocked. Its pretty cheap up to that point and then jumps from cost of 1000 to 6240 and goes up from there. At 110 there is a quest to research artifact resources that reduces the costs. With alts that I play just enough to earn resources for the table missions I was able to get the unlock before lvl 105.

[Niwes]

I don't disagree with you entirely on Doom Winds, but at the same time I'm more here to provide a more stable outlook than the "gutting" of the spell that floated around since I think that's too far in that sense. The cooldown change is what bothers me since that has a more significant impact on extraneous effects Doom Winds has in particular on Stormbringer frequency during bursts and also Maelstrom pooling, and encourages de-syncing from Feral Spirits now even further. I'd very much err on the side of 45sec, 200% damage side given that's how it was originally implemented and even then, it was a top tier artifact active.

- - - Updated - - -



I am going to categorically disagree with you on this. The entire point of Boulderfist is to eliminate GCD lock, people asked for it. Finding a way to still find GCD lock even with weak spells is circumventing that. Let me also add on, the chance that someone could successfully execute a rotation that filled empty BF GCDs with Lightning Bolt without negatively impacting on Stormbringer usage, other CD usage, or a variety of other GCD sensetive factors appears extremely low to me. Removing that then seems like a good idea if only because people will in the future recommend it to players who are inexperienced despite only the highest caliber of player being able to use it, there is no need to undermine a talent's goal when it's so easy to remove.

Ultimately, there isn't any "skill" in "being careful to not delay stormbringer procs", because Stormbringer procs are 100% random, you can't predict them, ergo, you can't play around it with assumption or inferrence.

your first part contradicts your second part. argument-wise you fail there in my oppinion. but overall there is truth in what you said, so i agree to it. on the other side, i find it cool when a spec have that deep for the last 1%, and the flexibility to decide if you are going straight and save, but loose that 1%, pool and just stare while doin nothing a few seconds, or risk a little bit, for a little bit more investment.

dont get me wrong. overall i agree with you. i just liked the outcome of "play BF with GCD holes, but if you wish, press a key in that holes, to have something to press, but if you dont want that, you just loose 1% in an ideal case, but maybe get 2-3% bc you didnt suck with delaying stuff". the idea overall has some little "fine nuances" to me. but overall you are right. it shouldnt undermine a talents idea in general.

[wordup]

your first part contradicts your second part. argument-wise you fail there in my oppinion. but overall there is truth in what you said, so i agree to it. on the other side, i find it cool when a spec have that deep for the last 1%, and the flexibility to decide if you are going straight and save, but loose that 1%, pool and just stare while doin nothing a few seconds, or risk a little bit, for a little bit more investment.

dont get me wrong. overall i agree with you. i just liked the outcome of "play BF with GCD holes, but if you wish, press a key in that holes, to have something to press, but if you dont want that, you just loose 1% in an ideal case, but maybe get 2-3% bc you didnt suck with delaying stuff". the idea overall has some little "fine nuances" to me. but overall you are right. it shouldnt undermine a talents idea in general.

I think you're trying to pick holes that don't exist here. My first post you quoted is in regards to something unrelated to whether you are locked or not, it's due to cooldown frequency & resource management. These aren't linked in any meaningful way in this instance, aside from perhaps a nuance case; but again in that situation, recommending CD de-syncs and CD management is much more significant of a gameplay impact with far less risk than filling GCDs with LB.

Really though, the solution should not be for Lightning Bolt spam in Boulderfist to exist, if people want to play GCD locked specs, then they should not take Boulderfist and instead play Rockbiter-centric builds. The issue ultimately has nothing to do with the Lightning Bolt choice in fact, and is instead entirely one of the poor tuning of T15 talents in general against Boulderfist that pushes a Boulderfist-centric playstyle on everyone whether they like it or not.

[Creatinebrah]

If the difference is so close it's good, you take Landslide for AOE/non-burst scenarios and Earth Spike for burst scenarios. Simple as that.

Talents have to be competitive with each other in such a way so that taking them in a certain scenario means that you'll get better performance. If the DPS difference in a patchwerk scenario(which is unrealistic for the most part) is negligible, then Blizzard has already achieved their purpose.

ascendance is a bit lower but is there a situation where ascendance would be a better pick than the other two?

[wordup]

ascendance is a bit lower but is there a situation where ascendance would be a better pick than the other two?

Bear in mind if you're working off my sheet that it's completely averaged, so situations where you can game it aren't currently accounted for, which could potentially push things like Spike and Ascendance. The problem mostly comes down to the overall benefit of Spike vs. Landslide isn't enough to offset Landslide being free, affecting all damage sources, and being up 100% of the time.

[Creatinebrah]

Bear in mind if you're working off my sheet that it's completely averaged, so situations where you can game it aren't currently accounted for, which could potentially push things like Spike and Ascendance. The problem mostly comes down to the overall benefit of Spike vs. Landslide isn't enough to offset Landslide being free, affecting all damage sources, and being up 100% of the time.

yep, i was indeed using your spreadsheet. thanks for the clarification!

[Deleted]

ascendance is a bit lower but is there a situation where ascendance would be a better pick than the other two?

I know this sounds like an obvious copout, but: Whenever the the burst dps check pattern of a boss lines up with Ascendance, you will take Ascendance. Example would be Chronomatic Anomaly if you need Ascendance to burn down the big adds in time.

ES vs. LS with proper tuning should eventually become a ES+Windsong+AS vs. LS+BF+Hailstorm discussion since ES favours talent setups that have lower percentages of fire and frost damage. Also means that you probably delay every second ES so it lines up with Windsong in that case.

[Deleted]

It seems that if the MH hit of SS procs SB, said SS consumes SB, leading to a wasted SS. Surely this has to be a bug? Has Blizzard commented on it?

[Zirhark]

It seems that if the MH hit of SS procs SB, said SS consumes SB, leading to a wasted SS. Surely this has to be a bug? Has Blizzard commented on it?

I think that is a maybe, does the SS still consume the full MP cost or is it reduced? if it's reduced then this might be intended, if it is not reduced then it is surely a bug.

[Jotaux]

I think that is a maybe, does the SS still consume the full MP cost or is it reduced? if it's reduced then this might be intended, if it is not reduced then it is surely a bug.

It consumes the charge but costs the full MP.

[Zirhark]

It consumes the charge but costs the full MP.

I'll make a bug post about it if no one has already.