[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[redfella]

Yea, that is what I meant, so the blizzard bar "max" is not a true max, just a UI issue, meaning the total stagger DoT can be for more than our max HP, and it works more or less as I thought in situation 2. Also, I just misunderstood the way Xequecal was representing the numbers, at least his second point is definitely correct with the boss that always hits for that much on that timer.

As an aside, I think there is a minimum hit we take no matter what. Just tested on PTR, and with High Tolerance + ISB + Fort Brew (which should be 105% stagger) I still took 282 damage from a 28,177 hit, or 1% of total damage. Probably put in to prevent exactly what you said, being unkillable against fully staggerable damage.

Doesn't stagger cap at 99%? I seem to recall this being the case during Throne of Thunder, where if you had mastery gear and trinket proc, it would put you over 100% but one percent still came through (so no 0 damage melees).

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[keqe]

Doesn't stagger cap at 99%? I seem to recall this being the case during Throne of Thunder, where if you had mastery gear and trinket proc, it would put you over 100% but one percent still came through (so no 0 damage melees).

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I think it was 100% during MoP at least since I remember people cheesing Horridon and Malkorok with RoP trinket for lols.

[redfella]

I think it was 100% during MoP at least since I remember people cheesing Horridon and Malkorok with RoP trinket for lols.

Well, 1% is nothing.

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[PinDrop]

It's odd having two things with the same word. To clarify

The amount of damage you can stagger(turn into a dot) is capped at 99% of incoming physical damage. This is reachable only with Fort Brew up, however an amount of 90% is possible with just talents and Ironskin Brew, which can be kep up indefinitely. This means you will not take any large physical abilities or melee hits to your health bar directly, but spread out over time. This is safe. This is good.

The amount of damage that can be staggered(the dot itself) has no limit. You can have 1000%(of your max health) staggered damage and take damage equal to your max health every second theoretically. The default UI bar caps at 100% of your max health, but it can, and most definitely will a majority of the time in Legion, go over that. My bar was almost always full red in Bronze Proving Grounds. Bronze. Which is why I suggest they change the Green/Yellow/Red thresholds, and maybe increase the bar to 200%, as there is little meaning to it if its always red. The bottom end of the red zone now is not even close to dangerous, since we aren't taking large melee hits(see above) in addition to the dot as we do in WoD, where we would purify for breathing room. Now its all stagger all the time.

If Blizzard wants us to have stagger as supplemental damage in addition to normal melee hits, like live, and not have ISB up all the time, then I don't know what to say. Smoother damage intake is safer, and I don't see anyone saving ISB for big damage spikes, when you can always have it up for safety, with brews to spare to purify.

[Saiyoran]

So the way the stagger bar worked is that it is the % of your max HP you take over the duration of the stagger DoT (10 seconds), unless things have changed. Which means with a full stagger bar you are taking 10% HP damage per second. The question I have is, is stagger capped at a full bar? For example, you are tanking a bunch of mobs on mythic +6, you fill your stagger bar up completely, then you pop Fort Brew and keep ISB up (with High Tolerance, so over 100% stagger), what happens?

Do you (assuming only melee damage):
1. Take 10% of your HP per second from stagger DoT, add 10% of your HP worth of incoming damage to stagger DoT per second, and otherwise take full melee damage?
2. Add all melee damage to stagger, taking more than 10% of your HP in stagger damage per second, but the bar doesn't reflect this since it would be capped the whole time?
3. Take 10% of your HP per second in damage from stagger DoT, add 10% HP damage per second from mob melees back to stagger DoT per second, and take no melee damage otherwise? (there is no way this would be true, it would be too powerful, just here for completion sake)

As far as I know, you can have more than 100% stagger, the bar just doesn't reflect it, which is a pretty big oversight since you spend a large amount of time over 100% in Mythic+s. Probably someone will just make a Weakaura for it (probably already exists) to fix that.

[Xequecal]

Unless things have changed drastically in Legion, this is not at all how stagger works. They very well might have changed, so I'm not saying you are totally wrong, but you might be totally wrong.

This is exactly how stagger works. The only difference is it ticks every second, not every half second like in Legion. Oh, and currently you can't get 90% stagger, obviously, instead you have like 40% which means a 1m hit turns into 600k taken immediately and 400k over 10 seconds, rather than 100k and 900k.

There is no such thing as maximum stagger. The stagger bar percentage indicates what % of your max HP the stagger dot is going to deal to you over the next 10 seconds. I was not aware that the Blizzard bar caps at 100% since I've been using a mod since basically day 1, but that's a significant oversight if true. You can definitely go over 100% stagger.

Stagger doesn't cause you to take more or less damage overall than you otherwise would. It just stores up a percentage of the damage you take and deals it to you overc10 sec instead of immediately. Malkorok was cheesedby getting over 80% stagger, banking all your chi, and then immediately purifying after every melee attack during the 20 sec cleave phase, essentially turning 80% stagger into 80% less damage taken. You can't do that in Legion because there is no chi so you can't spam purify and purify only removes half your total stagger.

[Ampere]

Is the stagger DoT still interrupting casts/channels/looting?

I haven't been on beta recently, but if it's still not fixed I think we need to really push for getting a Blizzard response to this issue. It's a really crappy QoL problem.

[PinDrop]

A 0.5 sec Stagger tick can not possibly tick harder than melee hits...

Like, if a boss hits for, let's say, 1,000,000 damage before stagger, swings every 2 seconds, and assuming you never dodge an attack, with perma-ISB you will take melee hits for 100,000 damage each. The stagger dot will always tick for 250,000 damage every 0.5sec and this will never change until the boss stops attacking you. Random dodges will occasionally lower the tick amount but it can never spike higher than this value.

225,000, but let's not split hairs. Also keep in mind everyone that if you just started the fight/taunted, the stagger ticks will not tick that hard right away, it will take several seconds/hits for the dot to ramp up, giving you time to judge how fast you're dropping compared to your heals. That's time to decide when you want to purify, because as Xequecal said, without purifying, you will eventually reach en equilibrium where the unstaggered incoming damage plus the stagger dot is dropping your health just as fast as if you weren't staggering at all. That time that it takes is how Brewmasters tank in Legion. Time to heal, time to purify, time to react. Smooth, baby.

[redfella]

Is the stagger DoT still interrupting casts/channels/looting?

I haven't been on beta recently, but if it's still not fixed I think we need to really push for getting a Blizzard response to this issue. It's a really crappy QoL problem.

They stated that this was intended.

*baffled*

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[keqe]

Is the stagger DoT still interrupting casts/channels/looting?

I haven't been on beta recently, but if it's still not fixed I think we need to really push for getting a Blizzard response to this issue. It's a really crappy QoL problem.

Only place I have noticed is the Azurewing Resort World Quest where you need to carry the stones into the holes. It is annoying, but didn't really cause too much issues.

[Deleted]

is there any math, how much haste you need to have 100% uptime on ISB (with and without black ox brew)?

[Julmara]

hey guys what you think will be stat weights for full survival and full dmg output ?

[Radio]

If Blizzard wants us to have stagger as supplemental damage in addition to normal melee hits, like live, and not have ISB up all the time, then I don't know what to say. Smoother damage intake is safer, and I don't see anyone saving ISB for big damage spikes, when you can always have it up for safety, with brews to spare to purify.

EDIT: The following is more a response to the latest string of discussion.

Smoother damage intake is only safer to a point relative to the amount of damage that the stagger DoT is hammering you for.

At the end of the day, ISB doesn't actually reduce your damage taken, PB does. You use ISB as anti-burst and use PB to actually survive.

It was people playing the "SMOOTH DMG 4LYF" way in early beta that had brewmasters eating dirt.

[PinDrop]

True, and getting your stagger up to a point where its worth purifying (since it's 50%) requires you to use ISB. They both must be used together in a balanced way something something harmony something monks.

[Tymboslice]

True, and getting your stagger up to a point where its worth purifying (since it's 50%) requires you to use ISB. They both must be used together in a balanced way something something harmony something monks.

Isn't it more like "balanced way: drunk something drunk something monks." We are brewmasters as it is, so I feel like it makes sense.

In all honesty, my biggest concern is our ability to raid at the higher levels such as heroic and mythic levels. Does anyone have any insight or tried brewmasters in the mythics? First time posting.

[Xequecal]

EDIT: The following is more a response to the latest string of discussion.

Smoother damage intake is only safer to a point relative to the amount of damage that the stagger DoT is hammering you for.

At the end of the day, ISB doesn't actually reduce your damage taken, PB does. You use ISB as anti-burst and use PB to actually survive.

It was people playing the "SMOOTH DMG 4LYF" way in early beta that had brewmasters eating dirt.

The thing is that using ISB only will almost completely eliminate overhealing. I'm not sure what the typical overhealing percentage is on most tanks but if it's something like 50% you're definitely better off never purifying because it protects you from burst and the extra healing is just going to come from healing that would have overhealed you, had you purified.

is there any math, how much haste you need to have 100% uptime on ISB (with and without black ox brew)?

Never not take Black Ox Brew. It's at least three times as strong as Light Brewing, probably more. What I'm wondering is whether using blackout combo with Keg Smash generates more or less brew charges than the haste on High Tolerance. 80% stagger is probably good enough if the former generates more brew charges and you also get the versatility to use the other modes if you need to.

[keqe]

Considering the situations without BoB is worth considering since it is quite obvious it will get a nerf later on.

[skeptyc]

So I am getting healers in Dungeons telling me they are actually bored and have nothing to do - this is during levelling. Do things change at 110 or something? I am just trying to determine what to expect as I level up (I am 101 now).

[Tech614]

So I am getting healers in Dungeons telling me they are actually bored and have nothing to do - this is during levelling. Do things change at 110 or something? I am just trying to determine what to expect as I level up (I am 101 now).

110 Heroics are a joke, early Mythics not that much harder. Outside of high level mythic dungeons and raiding it's not going to get that interesting for a healer.

[Leblue]

110 heroics I'd say are easier than normals. Reason? 15% health, damage, and healing buff along with general overgearing that you can do easily and quickly while waiting in queue from world quests.

Also, BoB gives so much fricken brew its really really silly. If you want a hard and fast general "rule" and don't want to think about it too much with ISB vs Purify you can do a 2 to 1 ratio if you're consistently tanking and you'll be fine in 9/10 situations with the 1 being more difficult/undergeared content. Don't take it as gospel, but its an okay starting point. For Dragons of Nightmare, Ursoc, and Cenarius testing I was sitting at 45 seconds of ISB at one point and over two minutes of it at one point during Dragons of Nightmare (to be fair, they hardly tickle the tank) so having enough wasn't even a partially existent issue in easier content. I don't expect to see the same in mythic, but the brew generation of Black Ox Brew is crazy insane to be sure.

Worth noting that if the Paladin or Warrior got normal mode Ursoc's rend + overwhelm they ate dirt while I could do it with relatively little change in how much health I was losing because stagger. I wish we'd logged but we didn't have anyone logging ~_~. Healers said I was a cake walk to heal relative to the other two though.