[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

Yes because you fail to understand that a dungeon being objectively easy is a fact not an opinion.

Thank you.
I was trying to get through to him but he is so insistent on arguing about meaningless semantics, just so he can navigate around the actual point that has been made.

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Easy and difficult are subjective not objective is his point facts CANNOT be subjective

UHG... another one of those.

No, hate to burst your bubble but difficulty is objective. If it wasn't, gamedevs could never hit an intended difficulty target.
Dungeons are tuned to be easy so virtually every group of 4 non-AFK players can complete them.
If they weren't, people would get stuck with their MSQs and most certainly not be happy campers about it.

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Of course people can still fail but people find ways to fail at everything in life somehow.

If you design something "idiot proof", someone will invent a better idiot.

[Echo of Soul]

No, hate to burst your bubble but difficulty is objective.

No difficulty is very much subjective. I find it easy to code windows applications, you may find it very difficult. You may find it easy to do an ollie on your skateboard, I find it difficult. I found HC HFC in WoW very easy, yet one year later people are still struggling with it. Easy and difficult is all relative to your individual skill and/or prior knowledge, hence you the subject can find something subjectively easy or subjectively difficult.

[Granyala]

hence you the subject can find something subjectively easy or subjectively difficult.

We are not talking about whether "jimmy faceroller" finds something difficult though.
You will find morons out there that think it's incredibly hard to tie their shoes.
Doesn't mean we all immediately think that "tying your shoes is hard and serious business" and start selling shoes with laces to "pro tiers" only.

We are talking about the objectively set difficulty of the dungeon content.

Whether you struggle, scream or put your fingers in your ears and go "lalala", the objective fact remains that SE tuned the 4 man content to be easily doable within half an hour of playtime. If they weren't... trust me, dungeon runs would look very different from what they are now.

[Sorrior]

We are not talking about whether "jimmy faceroller" finds something difficult though.
You will find morons out there that think it's incredibly hard to tie their shoes.
Doesn't mean we all immediately think that "tying your shoes is hard and serious business" and start selling shoes with laces to "pro tiers" only.

We are talking about the objectively set difficulty of the dungeon content.

Whether you struggle, scream or put your fingers in your ears and go "lalala", the objective fact remains that SE tuned the 4 man content to be easily doable within half an hour of playtime. If they weren't... trust me, dungeon runs would look very different from what they are now.

Ahem I had issues tying my shoes for years..I just coukd not memorize it on the ither hand I can recite alot of things from memory that most would be like whaaaaaa

Again it is subjective

My former roommate finds savage raids fairly simple(she has them all on farm) meanwhile I have not set good in one.

I know those who find the new dungeons hard and of course most easy

Again it IS subjective

[Granyala]

Ahem I had issues tying my shoes for years.

Yeah you had trouble. So it was difficult for YOU.

Doesn't mean that the rest of humanity suddenly perceives it as difficult though, which is what we are talking about.
SE won't suddenly consider their dungeon design "hard" just because a hand full of players among thousands struggle.

We're arguing 2 different things here and are constantly talking past each other.

Edit1:
Another example: I put my mother (50ish) in front of my computer and fired up the first level of Portal because she was curious (she never played a game before that). She had HUGE problems moving the character (coordinating keyboard and mouse) and did not understand the portal principle, even after I explained it to her.

To her, the first level of portal was too much of a challenge. She could not do it.

So.. do we all think of the first level as "hard content" now?
No. Most gamers will run through there in 2 minutes flat.

Same applies to dungeons, which is what @Wrecktangle stated.
Nothing more.
I really don't get why you argue so vehemently against that simple fact: 4man content is easy.

Edit2:
When is something to be considered "objectively hard" then?
When experienced people struggle.
When talented people struggle.

Like playing Vivaldis 4 seasons summer presto movement on a flute.
Most people can't do it. Hell most professional flutist struggle hard to do it.

If experienced raiders were to wipe repeatedly in dungeons, THEN we could start calling them difficult / hard.

[Kazgrel]

So to chime in on this whole difficulty spat without splitting hairs over subjectivity or whatever:

Would there be any harm in Savage 4 mans? Basically same concept as savage raids now, but for 4 people instead of 8.

Given participation rates in savage 8 man content, I would question the value of having a higher level of difficuly for the standard FF14 style dungeon. Personally, I'd be a bit more interested in harder dungeons, because I have a pool of friends I can call upon for a dungeon, but not enough of us to attempt the raids. I would also be concerned if said savage dungeons were to require CC on trash in order for tanks to not be completely annihilated, a la TBC heroics in WoW. Barring mobs being sleep immune, BLM would immediately be the #1 must have dps, so then you'd have a meta group comp formed.

Perhaps the new Deep Dungeon system will help to scratch the itch people may have for harder content that requires fewer people to participate in.

[Eleccybubb]

So to chime in on this whole difficulty spat without splitting hairs over subjectivity or whatever:

Would there be any harm in Savage 4 mans? Basically same concept as savage raids now, but for 4 people instead of 8.

Given participation rates in savage 8 man content, I would question the value of having a higher level of difficuly for the standard FF14 style dungeon. Personally, I'd be a bit more interested in harder dungeons, because I have a pool of friends I can call upon for a dungeon, but not enough of us to attempt the raids. I would also be concerned if said savage dungeons were to require CC on trash in order for tanks to not be completely annihilated, a la TBC heroics in WoW. Barring mobs being sleep immune, BLM would immediately be the #1 must have dps, so then you'd have a meta group comp formed.

Perhaps the new Deep Dungeon system will help to scratch the itch people may have for harder content that requires fewer people to participate in.

Only 1 issue. Would savage dungeon gear be better than let's say the current 220 gear but lower than savage? We sort of have the 24 mans in the 230 range and if you are gonna make it 235 gear make the dungeons hard as hell.

[Kazgrel]

Only 1 issue. Would savage dungeon gear be better than let's say the current 220 gear but lower than savage? We sort of have the 24 mans in the 230 range and if you are gonna make it 235 gear make the dungeons hard as hell.

235 would be a good sweet spot. Doesn't necessarily make lore gear worthless, since it can be upgraded to 240, but it would definitely need to be a step above the difficulty of WC (which is pretty easy now since most people know what to do).

Haven't done Nidhogg Ex yet, so to say how difficult a dungeon would need to be to be comparable to Nid Ex, I couldn't say.

[Granyala]

Would there be any harm in Savage 4 mans? Basically same concept as savage raids now, but for 4 people instead of 8.

Hmm... in WoW I would tell you that it isn't possible.
Tuning to the max would essentially force people to build certain class setups and then some other classes would be at a serious disadvantage in terms of "getting taken along".

As a general design rule: The more people needed, the more design freedom the developer has to demand certain abilities / roles to be present. (IE: you have a HEAVY AoE phase, designed to make BLMs necessary, all groups w/o one would have a significantly harder time dealing with said phase)

That being said: With tanks/heals being essential carbon copies of each other I'd wager that it could theoretically be resolved via number crunching in FF-XIV.

I think a savage mode might work, but I doubt SE would be able to balance it to the theoretical max like they do in savage raids.
Albeit take that assessment with a grain of salt, since I do not know how well DPS classes are balanced against each other in various situations.

[Kazgrel]

Hmm... in WoW I would tell you that it isn't possible.
Tuning to the max would essentially force people to build certain class setups and then some other classes would be at a serious disadvantage in terms of "getting taken along".

As a general design rule: The more people needed, the more design freedom the developer has to demand certain abilities / roles to be present. (IE: you have a HEAVY AoE phase, designed to make BLMs necessary, all groups w/o one would have a significantly harder time dealing with said phase)

That being said: With tanks/heals being essential carbon copies of each other I'd wager that it could theoretically be resolved via number crunching in FF-XIV.

I think a savage mode might work, but I doubt SE would be able to balance it to the theoretical max like they do in savage raids.
Albeit take that assessment with a grain of salt, since I do not know how well DPS classes are balanced against each other in various situations.

Yup, I alluded to that when I referred to the emergence of a meta comp.

BLM would be a candidate for such a comp for sure, between having an AoE CC ability (sleep) and both great single target and AoE damage. Sure, happens to fall right into my wheelhouse, but not everyone plays BLM.

[Katchii]

I heard if you say 'Dark Souls meets Final Fantasy XIV' three times in a mirror at midnight with a wine glass filled with blood in your right hand he'll appear...

Or bring up Carbuncle glamours for Summoners.

Also I think the term that should be used for dungeons is simple, not easy. Because as several people have said they ARE easy (simple), but some people just flat out don't have the skill or situational awareness to complete them. I say simple because there really isn't much to them, it's straight forward, not complicated...but sometimes people can't do simple things. Simple =/= Easy.

As Granyala already stated, the difficulty of a dungeon is objective, otherwise the devs would never be able to tune them to the desired difficulty level. Your opinion on how easy something is, will obviously differ based on your personal skill level...but just because you can't do it or find it challenging doesn't make it objectively difficult...it means YOU have difficulty with it.

[Sorrior]

Or bring up Carbuncle glamours for Summoners.

Also I think the term that should be used for dungeons is simple, not easy. Because as several people have said they ARE easy (simple), but some people just flat out don't have the skill or situational awareness to complete them. I say simple because there really isn't much to them, it's straight forward, not complicated...but sometimes people can't do simple things. Simple =/= Easy.

As Granyala already stated, the difficulty of a dungeon is objective, otherwise the devs would never be able to tune them to the desired difficulty level. Your opinion on how easy something is, will obviously differ based on your personal skill level...but just because you can't do it or find it challenging doesn't make it objectively difficult...it means YOU have difficulty with it.

Objectively compared to raids especially yes simple I will agree with

[Wrecktangle]

Opinions are now irrefutable statements. Who knew?

You could you know, try actually deconstructing my statement with sound examples and evidence, but nah why bother. Cool post fam.

Now I understand where you're coming from. Yeah the content is easy, and adding a little pizazz or whatever to it makes it seem not so droll. I'm just not comfortable doing that in a random group where any one of them can leave or start bitching for any reason or no reason at all. I deal with that shit at work and playing a game that just lets me play is awesome, and I'd rather not do anything to deal with stupid drama. I get enough enjoyment out of JUST playing without trying to add additional challenge or difficulty. Regardless of what I'm doing in game, I'm still disconnected from the real world for a bit...that's usually enough for me.

Alrighty, we're good here then.

Sorry, but that's true for everything PvE in MMOs INCLUDING Mythic/Savage raiding (I'll exclude world first raiding, since these folks are often undergeared compared to the average raiders that raid the place after farming the lower difficulty for god knows how long until they slowly progress into the harder mode).

Eh, I am of the camp that its very possible to design content that is challenging and rewarding. I see the EX's as examples of that. You can't afk your way through that, but its not savage level difficult that people can't/won't do it. The game needs dungeon level content similar to that difficulty.

in BNS I can't afk my way through the game. Dungeons have actual mechanics, bosses have moves that have to be dodged etc. I could say that one is an action MMO and other is a tab target so its hard to compare, but SQEX could definitely take more risks on the difficulty sector.

It's not an opinion.
It's a sad fact in both WoW and FF-XIV.

This guy gets it.

Difficulty is relative.

For some, they will find it incredibly easy. Others, not so much.

So, since there's a spectrum of how easy or difficult different people will find a particular dungeon or boss fight, then a statement that it is easy or hard is an opinion, at least to some degree. It certainly isn't an "irrefutable statement." That's just something someone says when they don't want to bother with other opinions that differ from their own, or the possibly that they aren't right about something.

And that's ignoring that calling it "afk level easy" is being hyperbolic in the first place.

No there really isn't. Let me ask you this. Could you, me, and Granyala go into any random dungeon finder with a random 4th person and the only things that we can do is spam 1 ability. I.e. for him he uses one heal spell. I use literally just true thrust, and you spam flash/overpower/whatever and will we fail the dungeon? Legit question.

I know the answer because I've done it as humor before with guild members. You will still succeed. That is AFK level easy. That is an undeniable fact. If you can enter something with that level of commitment and still clear it, it should not exist.

Since you're so hell-bent on arguing the validity of my "irrefutable statement" why not try to... you know? Maybe uh... Refute it?

I heard if you say 'Dark Souls meets Final Fantasy XIV' three times in a mirror at midnight with a wine glass filled with blood in your right hand he'll appear...

Fun fact - this actually had me laugh out loud at work.

Yes because you fail to understand that a dungeon being objectively easy is a fact not an opinion. You can have an opinion on a fact but you cannot change the fact that it is a fact... (fact-ception)

Gets it ^

Easy and difficult are subjective not objective is his point facts CANNOT be subjective

Easy and difficult are not subjective within the space of the discussion. Something is either easy or its not. If a small portion of the bell curve disagrees that doesn't remove the validity of my statement.

No difficulty is very much subjective. I find it easy to code windows applications, you may find it very difficult. You may find it easy to do an ollie on your skateboard, I find it difficult. I found HC HFC in WoW very easy, yet one year later people are still struggling with it. Easy and difficult is all relative to your individual skill and/or prior knowledge, hence you the subject can find something subjectively easy or subjectively difficult.

You're a programmer therefore in the SCOPE of programming yes its easy. I could argue 99.99% of programmers would agree with you. We're not talking about me or some other non-programmer. We are talking about gamers. In NO WORLD would any GAMER struggle in 4m dungeons in this game. That is what makes it irrefutable.

We are not talking about whether "jimmy faceroller" finds something difficult though.
You will find morons out there that think it's incredibly hard to tie their shoes.
Doesn't mean we all immediately think that "tying your shoes is hard and serious business" and start selling shoes with laces to "pro tiers" only.

We are talking about the objectively set difficulty of the dungeon content.

Whether you struggle, scream or put your fingers in your ears and go "lalala", the objective fact remains that SE tuned the 4 man content to be easily doable within half an hour of playtime. If they weren't... trust me, dungeon runs would look very different from what they are now.

Again, gets it.

Ahem I had issues tying my shoes for years..I just coukd not memorize it on the ither hand I can recite alot of things from memory that most would be like whaaaaaa

Again it is subjective

My former roommate finds savage raids fairly simple(she has them all on farm) meanwhile I have not set good in one.

I know those who find the new dungeons hard and of course most easy

Again it IS subjective

?????? Tying your shoes is another example of something that is irrefutably easy. 99.9% of the populace including children do not struggle with this. You did and that's fine, everybody has their thing, but just because YOU struggled with something doesn't change the fact that it is easy.

What does your roommates raiding experience have anything to do with the fact that you have not set foot in one? They're completely non-related.

[Sorrior]

You could you know, try actually deconstructing my statement with sound examples and evidence, but nah why bother. Cool post fam.



Alrighty, we're good here then.



Eh, I am of the camp that its very possible to design content that is challenging and rewarding. I see the EX's as examples of that. You can't afk your way through that, but its not savage level difficult that people can't/won't do it. The game needs dungeon level content similar to that difficulty.

in BNS I can't afk my way through the game. Dungeons have actual mechanics, bosses have moves that have to be dodged etc. I could say that one is an action MMO and other is a tab target so its hard to compare, but SQEX could definitely take more risks on the difficulty sector.



This guy gets it.



No there really isn't. Let me ask you this. Could you, me, and Granyala go into any random dungeon finder with a random 4th person and the only things that we can do is spam 1 ability. I.e. for him he uses one heal spell. I use literally just true thrust, and you spam flash/overpower/whatever and will we fail the dungeon? Legit question.

I know the answer because I've done it as humor before with guild members. You will still succeed. That is AFK level easy. That is an undeniable fact. If you can enter something with that level of commitment and still clear it, it should not exist.

Since you're so hell-bent on arguing the validity of my "irrefutable statement" why not try to... you know? Maybe uh... Refute it?



Fun fact - this actually had me laugh out loud at work.



Gets it ^



Easy and difficult are not subjective within the space of the discussion. Something is either easy or its not. If a small portion of the bell curve disagrees that doesn't remove the validity of my statement.



You're a programmer therefore in the SCOPE of programming yes its easy. I could argue 99.99% of programmers would agree with you. We're not talking about me or some other non-programmer. We are talking about gamers. In NO WORLD would any GAMER struggle in 4m dungeons in this game. That is what makes it irrefutable.



Again, gets it.



?????? Tying your shoes is another example of something that is irrefutably easy. 99.9% of the populace including children do not struggle with this. You did and that's fine, everybody has their thing, but just because YOU struggled with something doesn't change the fact that it is easy.

What does your roommates raiding experience have anything to do with the fact that you have not set foot in one? They're completely non-related.

The point was if even one person finds it hard them it cannot be objectively easy

The raiding was mostly me trying to say j doubt I could do savage anytime soon if at all.

Ypu yourself with 99.99 percent remark prove subjectivity even if just in a VERY small minority..

Oh and just a heads up it actually happens more then you may think with autism

[Granyala]

Eh, I am of the camp that its very possible to design content that is challenging and rewarding. I see the EX's as examples of that. You can't afk your way through that, but its not savage level difficult that people can't/won't do it. The game needs dungeon level content similar to that difficulty.

in BNS I can't afk my way through the game. Dungeons have actual mechanics, bosses have moves that have to be dodged etc. I could say that one is an action MMO and other is a tab target so its hard to compare, but SQEX could definitely take more risks on the difficulty sector.

Umm.. not to be too mean but any gamer that successfully played Souls games will most likely find raiding boring on a personal skill level.
You yourself said that you use meters in order to compete against yourself. Well if you weren't doing that and merely played at 80% capacity, you'd still kill the boss unless you gimp on mechanics.

That's why I never felt challenged by Raiding w/o obsessing over WoL/Warcraftlogs in my 9 years. Most of us create the actual challenge ourselves because the encounters typically aren't tuned that brutally. Not even in Mythic/Savage. (exceptions may exist, but most encounters are not that hard)

Ofc there is a whole world of grey to explore between soulcrushingly difficult and AFK-Easy. I too would wish that gamedevs had a little more courage do step into difficult stuff. Weeping City was a good step compared to Void Ark.

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The point was if even one person finds it hard them it cannot be objectively easy

And herein lies the crux:
We a a difference in definition.

Our definition: If the majority finds sth easy it is objectively easy, despite there being outliers that have a hard time with it.
Your definition: EVERYBODY needs to find it easy for it to be considered objectively easy by the majority.

Your approach is, simply put: impractical.
As you have proven yourself: you will never find any activity that will be easy or hard for virtually every human being on this planet.

[Graeham]

I just hope we get more 'meaty', engaging content in the future. As much as I love the game it feels like content quickly becomes stale and irrelevant due to how poorly it is tuned. Dungeons aren't particularly difficult but the new Nidhogg fight makes mechanics important enough to lead to a wipe if people ignore them...and in my opinion that is exactly what needs to happen in dungeons as well.

[Sorrior]

Umm.. not to be too mean but any gamer that successfully played Souls games will most likely find raiding boring on a personal skill level.
You yourself said that you use meters in order to compete against yourself. Well if you weren't doing that and merely played at 80% capacity, you'd still kill the boss unless you gimp on mechanics.

That's why I never felt challenged by Raiding w/o obsessing over WoL/Warcraftlogs in my 9 years. Most of us create the actual challenge ourselves because the encounters typically aren't tuned that brutally. Not even in Mythic/Savage. (exceptions may exist, but most encounters are not that hard)

Ofc there is a whole world of grey to explore between soulcrushingly difficult and AFK-Easy. I too would wish that gamedevs had a little more courage do step into difficult stuff. Weeping City was a good step compared to Void Ark.

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And herein lies the crux:
We a a difference in definition.

Our definition: If the majority finds sth easy it is objectively easy, despite there being outliers that have a hard time with it.
Your definition: EVERYBODY needs to find it easy for it to be considered objectively easy by the majority.

Your approach is, simply put: impractical.
As you have proven yourself: you will never find any activity that will be easy or hard for virtually every human being on this planet.

First did I ever say I dislike the dungeons ad they are? Nope second are they objectively easy or hard no subjectively they can go either way.

[Aruhen]

It feels like people are talking about two different things at the moment.

[Katchii]

First did I ever say I dislike the dungeons ad they are? Nope second are they objectively easy or hard no subjectively they can go either way.

As was stated before, I think the terms Easy and Difficult here should probably be changed to Simple and Complex because difficulty, when trying to apply the concept across a broad population, will have varying interpretations.

I think a good analogy is diving. Simply diving into a pool is very straight forward and simple, and most people are able to do it rather easily. However, there are those with physical handicaps that make it very difficult or downright impossible to do it or terrible balance and will slip if they try on the side of the pool and end up just falling in. You really can't argue how simple it is to simply dive into a pool, but you can argue how difficult it is for specific individuals to do it based on their abilities. Olympic diving, is obviously more complex, where the object is not just to get into the pool by diving, but also to twist and turn, flip, etc... and then enter the water with as little a splash as possible all while adhering to a very strict technique for positioning and whatnot.

Dungeons are like regular diving...maybe they have a diving board to make it a little more "fun." But they're straight forward, simple, and tuned to a point where many people with just the basic skills are able to complete it. Raids aren't much different in complexity, but you have the added requirement of having 8+ people all doing this simple activity AT THE SAME TIME, which doesn't change how complex the mechanics are but does increase the chance that someone can mess up on a simple mechanic.

Ex and Savage are like Olympic diving, where you not only have to get into the water, but you also have to adhere to strict technique and positioning while doing so in order to pass. It's more complex, and therefore takes additional time, practice and/or skill to overcome and be at the level to participate.

[Kazgrel]

I just hope we get more 'meaty', engaging content in the future. As much as I love the game it feels like content quickly becomes stale and irrelevant due to how poorly it is tuned. Dungeons aren't particularly difficult but the new Nidhogg fight makes mechanics important enough to lead to a wipe if people ignore them...and in my opinion that is exactly what needs to happen in dungeons as well.

Which led to ideas like the Savage 4 mans, as I had mentioned earlier (not to suggest that the idea is an original of mine, because I'm 99% certain such a concept has been brought up numerous times before I ever started playing this game). Or...as was proposed during E3, something like Savage Weeping City. I would be very surprised were they to add a difficult version of 24 man content; teams struggle enough as it is with fielding 8 people, let alone triple that amount.

Perhaps the Deep Dungeon will scratch part of the itch. We'll find out for sure in the next couple of weeks. There's definitely a market for content that has a bit of bite to it, but is easy as long as all mechanics are covered. I'm glad they stuck to their guns and never nerfed WC. Sure, it's easy now, but when people didn't understand the mechanics and/or were new...whew.