[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Deleted]

So, several things about why going right is better than left on the artifact:

• Contained Fury is a VERY potent talent, especially for a Demonic build, but also for burst DPS potential on adds and pooling before standard Meta.
• You need to go 3 points right for Unleashed Demons regardless.
• Illidari Knowledge is a substantially better shitty-support-trait than Deceiver's Fury, especially in Mythic.
• Similarly, I suspect Demon Speed is going to be invaluable in avoiding certain mechanics on Mythic.
• Rage of the Illidari is currently around 50% more powerful than either Inner Demons or Anguish of the Deceiver.

If Feast on the Souls works with Demonic Appetite lesser souls in the release patch, then a Demonic build *may* be able to justify going at least deep enough to the left to pick it up, but I strongly suspect that that behavior is a bug and will be fixed, as it makes Demonic Appetite too mandatory, especially for a build that has obvious synergy with Prepared.

Assuming Feast on the Soul is fixed, this is likely to be your ideal starter template: http://beta.wowdb.com/artifact-calcu...IBBIAAAAAAAAAA

The next 6 talents would go into Sharpened Glaives and Critical Chaos, as Critical Chaos is the only other 3-point trait that has substantial DPS contribution.



My only demand is that there exist a competitive spec that I can reasonably rationalize using even in mythic progression (not world-first race, just standard mythic progression) that does not include either Momentum or Demon Blades.

Thanks alot what about Relics, what would you focus on fixing first, like if you would give a order of whats being the best relic to like the worst? example: Felstained > Imp Eye or maybe it's hard to tell now already until tuning is done or you guys 100% sure it would be focusing on like Contained Fury relics, is that worth, like if you got 3 points and get 2 relics you would get 150 Fury right? Is it really worth that or should you go something else?

[Deleted]

As for aoe how are people going about handling aoe packs in dungeons. I usually FR for momentum FotI>EB for demonic>buffed BD>VR>FR and thats about it, what do you all do in the downtime waiting for the next blade dance

Should also use Throw Glaive, no? Demon's bite on main target to generate extra fury, if there's a free gcd.

[Dimzum]

Thanks alot what about Relics, what would you focus on fixing first, like if you would give a order of whats being the best relic to like the worst? example: Felstained > Imp Eye or maybe it's hard to tell now already until tuning is done or you guys 100% sure it would be focusing on like Contained Fury relics, is that worth, like if you got 3 points and get 2 relics you would get 150 Fury right? Is it really worth that or should you go something else?

First and foremost, the item level of the relic will far outweigh the trait it boosts. If you stick to that, you'll eliminate several cases of "should I use this relic or that"

If you are lucky enough to get multiple relics of the same type, and have unlocked all three of your slots (2 fel, 1 shadow) then you'll probably go Unleashed Demons > Contained Fury > Critical Chaos > Demons' Rage > Chaos Vision

[Deleted]

First and foremost, the item level of the relic will far outweigh the trait it boosts. If you stick to that, you'll eliminate several cases of "should I use this relic or that"

If you are lucky enough to get multiple relics of the same type, and have unlocked all three of your slots (2 fel, 1 shadow) then you'll probably go Unleashed Demons > Contained Fury > Critical Chaos > Demons' Rage > Chaos Vision

Ah cool, thanks alot mate

[Kaedis]

First and foremost, the item level of the relic will far outweigh the trait it boosts. If you stick to that, you'll eliminate several cases of "should I use this relic or that"

If you are lucky enough to get multiple relics of the same type, and have unlocked all three of your slots (2 fel, 1 shadow) then you'll probably go Unleashed Demons > Contained Fury > Critical Chaos > Demons' Rage > Chaos Vision

This is the proper list, though depending on the fight and your build, I could potentially see Contained Fury overtaking Unleashed Demons, as it can substantially increase your Fury pool for those Demonic windows. At very high crit levels, Critical Chaos could potentially rival either or both as well. Still, it's likely a good baseline. If you're lucky enough to get 3 optimal-ilevel relics of Unleashed Demons, it drops Meta down to being a 3-minute cooldown, which is RIDICULOUS given how powerful Meta is.

But ya, as Dimzum said, the relic's itemlevel will trump the trait on it without a doubt. You only get to choose your trait if they are equal itemlevel.

[Kaedis]

There is also that one trinket that reduces the CD on your big abilities. No idea how it works but that should bring meta down to 2 min or 2min and 30sec perhaps?

Have a linky?

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Ok, extensively tested Eye Beam and Demonic. Findings (for the following, "base haste" means your passive haste from gear and effects, without Meta active):

• Eye Beam's channel duration is properly being reduced by Meta's haste effect
• Demonic's duration is adding the duration of Eye Beam without Meta's haste buff, meaning it's about a half second longer than it should be (specifically, 0.4 / (1 + BaseHaste%). 0.4 -> 0.6 if you have Blind Fury).
• Blind Fury is broken as fuck with Demonic at the moment. Currently it is adding 4 seconds to the Demonic buff duration (total 9s before base haste), meaning that it gives 6s after EB fades. However, due to bullets 1 and 2 above, it's actually granting a bit over 6.5s of buff after EB fades.
• Clipping EB without Blind Fury has no effect on the buff's duration. It will last 7 seconds (reduced by base haste, 5 + 2 / (1 + BaseHaste%)) from the start of EB regardless.
• Clipping EB with Blind Fury immediately sets the total duration of the Demonic buff to 7.0 seconds, reduced by the actual duration EB channeled for. If you channeled for, say, 1.8s (maximum is 2.4s with the meta haste), the Demonic buff will last for 5.2s after EB ends. If you channeled for 1.2s (the quickest you can clip with base haste), it will last for 5.8s after EB ends.
• If you clip EB with Blind Fury after 2.0s of channel has elapsed, the buff will retain it's 9s (modified by base haste) total duration.
• I did not test how haste affects the additional 4s granted by Blind Fury, as my gear has only ~5% haste on it, which is well within the timestamp variance margin of error.

Conclusions: Without Blind Fury, clipping is ideal. With Blind Fury, you actually get longer post-Eye-Beam Demonic duration by channeling the Eye Beam by at least 2.0s.

Caveat: All of this sounds super super buggy, especially the duration on Blind Fury Demonic and the Demonic not accounting for Meta haste when adding in Eye Beam's "duration".

However, for now, that's how it works. If you take Blind Fury, channel for at least 2.0s (which basically means finish the channel), and enjoy your ~6.6s Demonic buff duration. If you don't, clip as normal and use your ~5.5-5.8s buff duration.

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The weakaura, for those interested:
http://pastebin.com/X61vCWiF



"Eye Beam" is the duration recorded for Eye Beam
"Demonic" is the total duration recorded for Demonic (applied timestamp minus removed timestamp, NOT the duration from GetSpellInfo())
"Diff" is the difference between those two
"w/ Offset 2" is Demonic - 2.0 (if you're naked, this equals Demonic - BaseEBChannelTime)
"w/ Offset 2" is Demonic - 3.0 (if you're naked, this equals Demonic - BaseEBChannelTimeWithBlindFury)

Oh, and for those interested, here are the relevant spell IDs:
Demonic Meta: spell aura 162264
Eye Beam: spell aura 198013, spell cast 198013, damage events 198030

[dark666105]

I wouldn't be surprised if the proc chance increased with ilvl as well.

[Deleted]

The proc is 3 rppm, won't increase with ilvl.

[Kaedis]

I wouldn't be surprised if the proc chance increased with ilvl as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's fixed, actually. The Blademaster trinket from HFC is that way, the use effect does the same damage regardless of which itemlevel version you have, only the passive stats change with itemlevel.

Still, it's hard to judge that based on the trinket. It has no useful data under the spell effects, so it's likely to be an RPPM effect (ICD effects usually show at least their proc chance in the spell data, though not usually their ICD). How beneficial it is, overall, will depend on what that RPPM rate is. Maybe I can get a blue to answer in the theorycrafting thread.

[Kaedis]

The proc is 3 rppm, won't increase with ilvl.

Have a source for that?

If accurate, that would translate to an average of around 30-40s off the CD, if it was 3 minutes to start with.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's fixed, actually. The Blademaster trinket from HFC is that way, the use effect does the same damage regardless of which itemlevel version you have, only the passive stats change with itemlevel.

Still, it's hard to judge that based on the trinket. It has no useful data under the spell effects, so it's likely to be an RPPM effect (ICD effects usually show at least their proc chance in the spell data, though not usually their ICD). How beneficial it is, overall, will depend on what that RPPM rate is. Maybe I can get a blue to answer in the theorycrafting thread.

It says 3 rppm on wowhead.

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=225139/prescience

[Kaedis]

It says 3 rppm on wowhead.

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=225139/prescience

Oh, holy shit, I didn't even see that in the spell effect tooltip! How long has that been there?!

[Deleted]

No idea, to be honest, that was the first time I looked at the trinket xD

[Deleted]

"One of your big abilities" could mean a lot though.

Darkness, Chaos Nova, Eye Beam, probably even Blade Dance. If all of those might take procs away from Meta the trinket won't be worth it I imagine.

[Deleted]

No, it's just Meta. If you select Havoc Demon Hunter in the spell effect, it shows which cooldown it reduces.

[Deleted]

SNIP

Could you explain to me what you mean with Clipping EB?, when i think of clipping i think of models going through places it shouldnt.

Looks like with what you're saying Blind fury with demonic appatite new reducing eye beam again and with that trinket we can have some insane uptime on meta...

[Deleted]

No, it's just Meta. If you select Havoc Demon Hunter in the spell effect, it shows which cooldown it reduces.

Ah perfect. Thanks for clarification.

[Kaedis]

Ok, 3 RPPM gives around 15s reduction per minute, before haste. That means we can roughly model it as a 5s per 20s reduction, or 0.25s per 1s. That means that the average duration of the CD should be roughly equal to (BaseCD - 0.25 * t) = t -> t = 0.8*b. IE. it's a ~20% reduction in the effective cooldown, before haste.

The real problem is, we have to account for haste, both baseline and for the 30 seconds that Meta is active and granting us an extra 25% (and possibly lust granting another 30%).

Before factoring in haste, this averages to 144s, 80% of 180s. With the 25% haste from meta for the first 30 seconds, it actually only drops the average down to 142.5s, but it drastically increases the standard deviation, since it's fairly significantly increasing the proc chance during those first 30s. With Meta and Lust at the start, it decreases the average down to 139.65s.

So actually, haste isn't as big a deal as I thought for this. Adding 25% haste for the first 30s and 30% haste for the first 40s only increased the benefit from 20% reduction to 22.42% reduction. 10% additional haste from gear reduces it to 136.62s, a 24.1% reduction.

Actually, the trinket effect itself can be thought if as having the same average effect on the CD as if haste applied to the CD naturally, plus a 25% bonus. IE. with that trinket and only passive haste, the CD becomes BaseCD / ((1 + PassiveHaste%) * 1.25). With 0% base haste, this means the modified CD = BaseCD / 1.25, or ModCD = 0.8*BaseCD. With 10% haste from gear, we get ModCD = BaseCD / (1.25 * 1.1) -> ModCD = BaseCD / 1.275 -> ModCD = 0.784 * BaseCD. The effects of Meta and Lust aren't nearly so neat to apply in equation form (they can be handled as if they apply passive haste equal to their actual haste multiplied by their uptime, but their uptime increases as haste on gear increases).

TLDR (that's still kinda long): With that trinket, you can expect an average of a 38s (0% haste on gear) to 43s (20% haste on gear) reduction to the CD on Meta, assuming it was 180s to begin with. This is a 21%-24% reduction. Lust increases the reduction by a second or two for the CD usage that is occurs during it.

If have a 240s CD, you can expect an average of a 50s to 57s reduction (0-20% haste on gear), which is a 21% - 24% reduction (same with rounding, sliiiiightly lower before rounding).

TLDR the TLDR: That trinket is a 21-24% reduction in the meta CD, if my assumptions above hold*, depending on your passive haste from gear**.

* Assumptions being mostly just that meta haste affects it, that it affects meta's CD, and that it's 3 RPPM at all itemlevels.
** 21% and 24% represents 0% and 20% gear haste, respectively.

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Could you explain to me what you mean with Clipping EB?, when i think of clipping i think of models going through places it shouldnt.

Looks like with what you're saying Blind fury with demonic appatite new reducing eye beam again and with that trinket we can have some insane uptime on meta...

So by clipping, I'm using the meaning as it applied to Mind Flay clipping back in the day. I'm referring to canceling Eye Beam early by casting another ability, interrupting the channel time. This is beneficial, with current tuning and mechanics, if you do not have Blind Fury. It is only beneficial after 2.0s of the channel have elapsed if you have Blind Fury.

And someone else asserted that Demonic Appetite is reducing the Eye Beam CD with Feast of Souls. I've yet to verify this claim.

[Deleted]

Have you reported the strange behaviour of EB, Demonic and Blind Fury on the official Havoc beta feedback thread?

[bloodkraven]

It's beyond dumb that Eye Beam's damage is so poor single target that its more beneficial to clip it and get the extra Demonic seconds. We already can't use Blade Dance single target without First Blood to add Eye Beam on top of that is just disappointing.