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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    http://onlinegameslaw.com/german-cou...ges-copyright/

    That's specifically dealing with European/German law regarding reselling keys from different regions.

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...ps-profit.aspx

    Some context on/information about the resale of Humble Bundle keys and it being illegal.
    Digital media is international, yet laws and deals are national.
    That's the problem.

    Just because there was an anti-competitive, anti-consumer deal made between some publishers.

    There's also this article: http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2014/eu-di...state-of-play/

    Which suggests that the EU is looking favourably at digital resale.
    Ultimately the jury is still out. The law is still being shaped.

    If you look at the general direction the EU normally heads with consumer goods though, what with the whole single trading area thing that the EU is meant to be, people are going to push for the ability to trade stuff at least within the EU. And they will always push for that until it happens. People pushing for free trade within an economic area are not going to stop.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    http://onlinegameslaw.com/german-cou...ges-copyright/

    That's specifically dealing with European/German law regarding reselling keys from different regions.

    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...ps-profit.aspx

    Some context on/information about the resale of Humble Bundle keys and it being illegal.
    So example 1 is about German law, example 2 is just a regular case of 'not going to court, because we made an agreement'. Odds are that similar law will then strike other European countries as well. That assumption can be made. Europe has laws for literally everything after all, I'm sure most of which America does not abide by.

    In my earlier example, I explicitly mentioned the moral legality. Because what you deem illegal or what your country or even your union deem illegal, does not mean that something should be illegal or is illegal elsewhere. Illegality is a legal fact. It's either black, or white. Since China seems to disagree with many European laws and we with theirs, it's only illegal in the eye of the beholder. G2A apparently can't be banned by law and therefore it's legal.

    While I would personally agree with illegality of reselling HB keys, I would very much disagree with illegality of reselling codes for other regions. It's called business. Back in the days we did it with ships, now we do it through internet. But of course, I am Dutch.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    There's also this article: http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2014/eu-di...state-of-play/

    Which suggests that the EU is looking favourably at digital resale.
    Ultimately the jury is still out. The law is still being shaped.
    That's an older article based off an older ruling. I agree, consumers should have digital resale rights, but within limits. Within the same region rather than across different regions where the initial sale value is vastly different. That's what the article I linked primarily deals with, and it's the issue at the center of much of this.

    I agree, we still have a long way to go when it comes to any kind of comprehensive law dealing with digital rights, ownership, transfer of ownership, and the internet in general. But as it stands, the resale of keys from different regions is largely illegal in the West and companies engaged in it can be prosecuted. Hence why China, a country with notoriously lax laws regarding these kinds of activities and one that's extremely hard for foreign companies to prosecute companies headquartered in, is the location where G2A chose to headquaterter themselves rather than anywhere in the founders native Europe. Because the foundation of their business model would be very much at risk due to the laws they're skirting by locating in China.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    So example 1 is about German law, example 2 is just a regular case of 'not going to court, because we made an agreement'. Odds are that similar law will then strike other European countries as well. That assumption can be made. Europe has laws for literally everything after all, I'm sure most of which America does not abide by.
    Those are examples of the kind of legal risk that G2A's core business is subject to if they were headquartered in Europe where they could actually be prosecuted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    In my earlier example, I explicitly mentioned the moral legality.
    Wut. That's not a thing, the law is the law, regardless of morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Because what you deem illegal or what your country or even your union deem illegal, does not mean that something should be illegal or is illegal elsewhere. Illegality is a legal fact. It's either black, or white. Since China seems to disagree with many European laws and we with theirs, it's only illegal in the eye of the beholder. G2A apparently can't be banned by law and therefore it's legal.
    Thanks for supporting our argument. G2A is specifically headquartered in China to avoid these laws that protect companies and would allow them to prosecute G2A. That G2A is engaged in an extremely shady venture and would not legally be allowed to engage in it if they'd headquartered in the West.

    And I wouldn't want to look to China as a bastion of legal protections for consumers, companies there literally get away with murder and the sale of dangerous products without so much as a slap on the wrist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    While I would personally agree with illegality of reselling HB keys, I would very much disagree with illegality of reselling codes for other regions. It's called business.
    It's called regional trade agreements. National and international laws. Hence the link to the German case above, showing that there are legal protections in place in many countries, including Germany, to protect against this behavior as it's harmful to business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Back in the days we did it with ships, now we do it through internet. But of course, I am Dutch.
    That's...quite possibly the worst comparison I've ever heard. Are you seriously going to compare the laws, or general lack thereof, during colonial Europe with modern international law?

  4. #24
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    How is this supposed to fix anything, besides being an attempt at a PR trick? G2A will still be shady as fuck if this is all they're doing.

    They're not going to verify until you sell more than 10 keys, given spam bots this is a non issue. Verification in any form other than an actual ID is also a joke.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's an older article based off an older ruling. I agree, consumers should have digital resale rights, but within limits. Within the same region rather than across different regions where the initial sale value is vastly different. That's what the article I linked primarily deals with, and it's the issue at the center of much of this.

    I agree, we still have a long way to go when it comes to any kind of comprehensive law dealing with digital rights, ownership, transfer of ownership, and the internet in general. But as it stands, the resale of keys from different regions is largely illegal in the West and companies engaged in it can be prosecuted. Hence why China, a country with notoriously lax laws regarding these kinds of activities and one that's extremely hard for foreign companies to prosecute companies headquartered in, is the location where G2A chose to headquaterter themselves rather than anywhere in the founders native Europe. Because the foundation of their business model would be very much at risk due to the laws they're skirting by locating in China.

    Those are examples of the kind of legal risk that G2A's core business is subject to if they were headquartered in Europe where they could actually be prosecuted.

    Wut. That's not a thing, the law is the law, regardless of morality.

    Thanks for supporting our argument. G2A is specifically headquartered in China to avoid these laws that protect companies and would allow them to prosecute G2A. That G2A is engaged in an extremely shady venture and would not legally be allowed to engage in it if they'd headquartered in the West.

    And I wouldn't want to look to China as a bastion of legal protections for consumers, companies there literally get away with murder and the sale of dangerous products without so much as a slap on the wrist.

    It's called regional trade agreements. National and international laws. Hence the link to the German case above, showing that there are legal protections in place in many countries, including Germany, to protect against this behavior as it's harmful to business.

    That's...quite possibly the worst comparison I've ever heard. Are you seriously going to compare the laws, or general lack thereof, during colonial Europe with modern international law?
    Law today, is fed by corporate GREED. Or to state it more commonly; To protect the assets of our businesses.

    Everything can be patented and copyrighted. The word Apple, The word Windows, the word Sky (No Man's Sky had to buy the rights from Sky to use the word Sky). Every law involves ownership. MINE. MINE. MINE.

    Our laws are a joke. European laws are a joke. The EU, is a joke. Laws were designed to protect and guide people. Not to grant immunity to multibilliondollar corporations. While I do not agree with the way China views its laws, I also do not agree with the way the West looks at the law. We do not own wisdom, nor the world. Our way is not per definition right. I'm not comparing laws of old with laws of new, I'm comparing logic of old with logic of new. Legal logic today is owned by corporations.

    The English people should be grateful for Brexit, since they weren't allowed, for whatever bullshit reason, to legally engage trade with Australia and India. India, for fucks sake, which is a large percentage British. How is that kind of illegality logic? World trade should be free and cutthroat. No longer 4 megacorporations that control everything from lifestock to medicine. No more controlling laws by pressuring governments into it. No more inflated prices for garbage, because there's no one to compete.

    Thank god we have a competitor on the market that forces the industry to take a good look at their pricepoints. Thank god they can't be taken out by law. Let them compete prices to a more acceptable level. Let them, why not? €70 for a game? Fuck off?
    Last edited by Vespian; 2016-07-08 at 07:24 PM.

  6. #26
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    Having to pay $60+ for the base version of a title after using a 20/25% off coupon is what's bullshit let alone having to fork out extra if you're foolish enough to buy season passes and DLC. Maybe once the Canadian dollar stops being a big pile of shit will I consider going back to GMG but, until then, resellers will continue to get my money because of the savings.

    I willingly feed the Boogeyman.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Law today, is fed by corporate GREED. Or to state it more commonly; To protect the assets of our businesses.
    Largely, I agree. But at the same time, I don't think that companies shouldn't have any legal protections. I'd be all for stronger consumer protections, but both companies and consumers need various protections under the law that is of mutual interest to both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Everything can be patented and copyrighted. The word Apple, The word Windows, the word Sky (No Man's Sky had to buy the rights from Sky to use the word Sky). Every law involves ownership. MINE. MINE. MINE.
    Welcome to how capitalism works. And sauce on them needing to buy the rights? I know they had legal troubles, but that's the first I've heard of them purchasing anything.

    And yes, "MINE. MINE. MINE." when it comes to copyright is how companies protect themselves, and consumers. Because you've clearly never seen fake Apple, Starbucks, etc. stores in China that trick customers, especially when they're selling inferior products. Right? I mean, clearly it's not in the interest of consumers to ensure that the product they think they're buying is actually authentic and not a knockoff that is pretending to be what the consumer wants to purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Our laws are a joke. European laws are a joke. The EU, is a joke. Laws were designed to protect and guide people. Not to grant immunity to multibilliondollar corporations.
    They're designed to do more than just protect people, they apply to trade, to agreements/contracts, to companies etc. If your narrow view of the law is, "ONLY FOR PEOPLE!" then that's your problem. Multibillion companies are entitled to the same types of legal protections that small companies and anyone/anything else should be. Do they sometimes abuse those laws? Yeah, and that's awful. But that doesn't mean that the laws should be thrown out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    While I do not agree with the way China views its laws, I also do not agree with the way the West looks at the law. We do not own wisdom, nor the world. Our way is not per definition right. I'm not comparing laws of old with laws of new, I'm comparing logic of old with logic of new. Legal logic today is owned by corporations.
    This is getting to be some meta shit right here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    The English people should be grateful for Brexit, since they weren't allowed, for whatever bullshit reason, to legally engage trade with Australia and India. India, for fucks sake, which is a large percentage British. How is that kind of illegality logic? World trade should be free and cutthroat.
    There's a reason it's not, and believe it or not it's actually also to the benefit of consumers that it's not completely unregulated and unlegistlated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    No longer 4 megacorporations that control everything from lifestock to medicine. No more controlling laws by pressuring governments into it. No more inflated prices for garbage, because there's no one to compete.
    Honestly...by this point your post seems less about the topic at hand and more a rant on how the world doesn't work the way you want it to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Thank god we have a competitor on the market that forces the industry to take a good look at their pricepoints. Thank god they can't be taken out by law. Let them compete prices to a more acceptable level. Let them, why not? €70 for a game? Fuck off?
    Thank god they're facilitating the sale of keys purchased illegally or purchased in other regions where they are far cheaper! Thank god they're denying hard working developers and publishers revenue that they may have otherwise seen and would have ensured that they could maintain staff and/or expand, rather than need to worry about budget cuts/layoffs or not greenlighting projects due to a lack of funding!

    I mean, it's not as if retail copies of games aren't cheaper now than they were in the 90's when pricing was all over the place and retail copies of games would regularly go for upwards of $90, which with inflation would be around $140 nowadays! Yeah, that $60 retail box you bought is overpriced!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    Having to pay $60+ for the base version of a title after using a 20/25% off coupon is what's bullshit let alone having to fork out extra if you're foolish enough to buy season passes and DLC. Maybe once the Canadian dollar stops being a big pile of shit will I consider going back to GMG but, until then, resellers will continue to get my money because of the savings.

    I willingly feed the Boogeyman.
    Blame your weak currency, not developers/publishers. It's not their fault and they shouldn't be "punished" for it.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2016-07-08 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Thank god they're facilitating the sale of keys purchased illegally or purchased in other regions where they are far cheaper! Thank god they're denying hard working developers and publishers revenue that they may have otherwise seen and would have ensured that they could maintain staff and/or expand, rather than need to worry about budget cuts/layoffs or not greenlighting projects due to a lack of funding!

    I mean, it's not as if retail copies of games aren't cheaper now than they were in the 90's when pricing was all over the place and retail copies of games would regularly go for upwards of $90, which with inflation would be around $150 nowadays! Yeah, that $60 retail box you bought is overpriced!
    Apart from the fact that your finisher is total BS, unless you count some really dark ages (ago), YES YES YES. Thank GOD that these people don't become billionaire instantly. I pay full price for actual indie games, not the 'indie' games made by EA, or UBI. The rest can suck it with their overpriced piece of trash FO4.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Apart from the fact that your finisher is total BS, unless you count some really dark ages (ago), YES YES YES.
    You mean the part where I point out that prices have now standardized rather than been the "all over the fucking place" that they were before? The fact that adjusting for inflation games nowadays are cheaper at $60 than they were when purchased at $60 in the 90's? ($60 in the 90's is worth $95 now, $50 worth $79), $40 worth $63).

    Yeah, ignore that part because it doesn't fit with your view, regardless of if it's true or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Thank GOD that these people don't become billionaire instantly.
    If you think 99% the developers actually working on these games are "billionaires" or that many of the smaller companies that are hurt far more by these illegal sales are "billionaires", then I'm not sure what to tell you. Activision losing a few hundred thousand sales of a game isn't going to do much damage overall. A company like Tiny Build or even Paradox losing a few hundred thousand sales is going to hit their numbers pretty hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I pay full price for actual indie games, not the 'indie' games made by EA, or UBI.
    Spoilers: Just because publishers fund/publish indie games like Unravel or Transistor doesn't mean that the teams making the game aren't hard working individuals that deserve your money or the publishers that helped them turn their visions into a reality. Just because a publisher like Ubisoft will like their employees work in small teams with limited budget on passion projects like Child of Light doesn't mean that the devs or Ubisoft don't deserve your money for helping make those games a thing instead of just lumping everyone on the next AAA title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    The rest can suck it with their overpriced piece of trash FO4.
    Then don't buy it. Don't buy it through legit channels. Don't buy it through gray markets like G2A. Don't pirate it. Just never own/play it. It's not hard.

    Honestly, most of your post comes off as angrily irrational.

  10. #30
    If the price of keys increasing people will find another place to get keys.

    The Free Market Always Fixes it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    If the price of keys increasing people will find another place to get keys.
    They're not, unless your countries currency is losing value. Games are still $60 or less for the base version, more for the LE or if you want a season pass to DLC.

    If your countries currency is weak and driving up the prices of games (and other products), that's an issue with your country. Not the companies selling goods in your country.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    They're not, unless your countries currency is losing value. Games are still $60 or less for the base version, more for the LE or if you want a season pass to DLC.

    If your countries currency is weak and driving up the prices of games (and other products), that's an issue with your country. Not the companies selling goods in your country.
    Huh? I am referring to this site specifically. if this change causes prices on G2A to increase by much more than a few dollars you can expect people will just flock to another site that doesn't have the same systems in place.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Another completely pointless PR move, like their "generous" 10% revenue share they offered a few weeks back, that does absolutely nothing to address the core issue but they can say was an "olive branch".
    Not only is it just a PR move, but it's also a joke.

    A publisher can't take that money. Should any publisher ever want to try litigating them they can't have accepted recompense. I'm no lawyer and I'm just guessing, but it seems to me that if you accepted the payment you would almost be agreeing to the terms and legitimizing the business.

    Maybe some Indi guys would rather just have the money so they can pay the bills, but none of the big guys are going to take that money. Still not a lawyer, but I'd be willing to bet on this.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Then don't buy it. Don't buy it through legit channels. Don't buy it through gray markets like G2A. Don't pirate it. Just never own/play it. It's not hard.

    Honestly, most of your post comes off as angrily irrational.
    That's fine. I see logic, I practice logic. It has little to do with irrationality, but certainly with distrust of increasing disparity between true justice and just corporate greed. I will buy anything as cheap as possible through channels that are legal. Simple basics of moral principles and commerce balanced against income and a big fat middlefinger towards everything that wants immunity by law. Get me a rebel and I'll vote for him.

    I'll emphasize again; G2A is grey, according to you. It is not according to laws that they abide by. My purchase does not conflict with any laws I abide by. The outcome is legal.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    Huh? I am referring to this site specifically. if this change causes prices on G2A to increase by much more than a few dollars you can expect people will just flock to another site that doesn't have the same systems in place.
    Ah, my mistake then!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurimas View Post
    Not only is it just a PR move, but it's also a joke.

    A publisher can't take that money. Should any publisher ever want to try litigating them they can't have accepted recompense. I'm no lawyer and I'm just guessing, but it seems to me that if you accepted the payment you would almost be agreeing to the terms and legitimizing the business.

    Maybe some Indi guys would rather just have the money so they can pay the bills, but none of the big guys are going to take that money. Still not a lawyer, but I'd be willing to bet on this.
    Yup, no self respecting developer/publisher is going to legitimize G2A's shady business. Especially not for the pitiful 10% G2A is offering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    I'll emphasize again; G2A is grey, according to you. It is not according to laws that they abide by. My purchase does not conflict with any laws I abide by. The outcome is legal.
    So them facilitating the resale of keys purchased with credit card fraud is totally cool then, right? You have no issues with that at all?

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Bought nearly 70 games through G2A the past 2 years, and I've never had any problems with it. Asking my friends, they haven't either.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ah, my mistake then!
    So them facilitating the resale of keys purchased with credit card fraud is totally cool then, right? You have no issues with that at all?
    They facilitate the resale of keys period.

    The point of origin is irrelevant to them and it should be irrelevant to them, since there's nothing currently available that would allow them to check the origin of these keys. Not without being legitimized by the businesses/publishers they need to verify these keys against.

    The fact that they can sell these keys up to 50% cheaper is what withholds publishers from legitimizing G2A. That creates the vacuum that enables G2A to sell these keys without having to check them and the publishers unable to counter the fraud. Without the cooperation of the publishers, G2A's only possible action is to deny accountability. Because they have no alternative.

    There's two ways out of this for the publishers:
    > Release games more cheaply, which they can easily afford.
    > Destroy G2A and all resellers, by collectively systematically disable 'stolen keys'. Within 3 months no more resales.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2016-07-08 at 08:25 PM.

  18. #38
    Meh, so what. There's a lot of shops that will continue in this field, so no big loss.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakushisai View Post
    Bought nearly 70 games through G2A the past 2 years, and I've never had any problems with it. Asking my friends, they haven't either.
    How nice to hear how you and others have not had any problems buying stolen property.

  20. #40
    (quotes below)

    This and this is why I said back in the original thread that the big publishers should have stuck to their guns, suffered the PR nightmare, and deactivated the keys.

    When I said earlier that they can't accept recompense I mentioned it in terms of litigation, but there very well may not be any legal recourse. Deactivate any stolen or fraudulent keys and annoy the consumers who now have to try to get their money back from G2A. Now the same people who don't have a problem with it, or think that since they can play the game everything must be fine... now they have to say "g2a sold me stolen keys". I don't think the backlash would fall on the publisher for long before you have to say "you sold me stolen keys". How else can you spin it? That's how you get rid of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So them facilitating the resale of keys purchased with credit card fraud is totally cool then, right? You have no issues with that at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakushisai View Post
    Bought nearly 70 games through G2A the past 2 years, and I've never had any problems with it. Asking my friends, they haven't either.

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