Why Free College is Bad Idea

[alexw]

Yep, it's the same with the environment and other hot topic issues that need to be dealt with. For example here in Belgium we also have that issue partially my dad's generation those who worked in the mine which was a large part of the industry here for i would say at least 50 years, those people got their pension at 48. Same with big companies that went under and people got an earlier retirement plan there also.

To compensate for all of this my generation is looking at working till 65 or maybe even 68 (!) for the same, so an increase of 20 years over a short period. While at least here that boomer generation can partially agree that things did go wrong there.

I don't know why but the extreme levels of boomer selfishness seems to have been a global phenomenon. If you go to the UK or New Zealand then you have boomers who don't want homes to be built to house the next generation in order to drive their property wealth up in value. In the US you have boomers who scream socialism whenever people talk of merely returning gov funding of universities to the level it was two decades ago. In Australia boomers are utterly unwilling to reform their old age welfare system which basically takes money from poor workers to give to middle class retirees. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on.

[Theinquisition]

I wonder if supertony is a boomer?

Technically im a millennial (throws up in mouth).

Deny cultural behaviors towards education if you want, it doesn't change the fact that it exists.

[alexw]

Meh whatever, i'll let Charles Barkley address it since he's a minority and in this subject, much more knowledgeable

"Barkley went on a long monologue on the subject: “Unfortunately, as I tell my white friends, we as black people, we’re never going to be successful, not because of you white people, but because of other black people. When you’re black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people. It’s a dirty, dark secret; I’m glad it’s coming out.”

Barkley said that young black men who do well in school are accused of “acting white” by their peers. “One of the reasons we’re never going to be successful as a whole, because of other black people. And for some reason we are brainwashed to think, if you’re not a thug or an idiot, you’re not black enough. If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don’t break the law, you’re not a good black person. And it’s a dirty, dark secret.” “There are a lot of black people who are unintelligent, who don’t have success,” he continued. “It’s best to knock a successful black person down because they’re intelligent, they speak well, they do well in school, and they’re successful…”

“We’re the only ethnic group who say, ‘Hey, if you go to jail, it gives you street cred.’ It’s just typical BS that goes on when you’re black, man.”


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/25/ch...#ixzz4DvkH9TZH

Lol dailycaller. Yeah just about the garbage I expected you to read. Now I know where you get it from at least.

[flyspyro]

And then we look at country's that already do this and none of that is true.

1. True there is free college alrdy and it's not a issue in other countries.
2. The other factor is not all jobs require college. example- my dad is a contractor hes making very good money. he never went to college.
3. not everyone wants to go to college. more school to them is gross. many people drop out of college too
4. There are so many different degrees nobody will be the same.

Heres something to think about.
I live in the usa and i've been going to college for free alrdy. I get grants all the time. 8 terms at 6-8credits have all been free for me /shrug
I will say this though the money only covers the books and classes. which means you have to work or live with your parents. and that does make things harder.

[Acidbaron]

Meh whatever, i'll let Charles Barkley address it since he's a minority and in this subject, much more knowledgeable

"Barkley went on a long monologue on the subject: “Unfortunately, as I tell my white friends, we as black people, we’re never going to be successful, not because of you white people, but because of other black people. When you’re black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people. It’s a dirty, dark secret; I’m glad it’s coming out.”

Barkley said that young black men who do well in school are accused of “acting white” by their peers. “One of the reasons we’re never going to be successful as a whole, because of other black people. And for some reason we are brainwashed to think, if you’re not a thug or an idiot, you’re not black enough. If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don’t break the law, you’re not a good black person. And it’s a dirty, dark secret.” “There are a lot of black people who are unintelligent, who don’t have success,” he continued. “It’s best to knock a successful black person down because they’re intelligent, they speak well, they do well in school, and they’re successful…”

“We’re the only ethnic group who say, ‘Hey, if you go to jail, it gives you street cred.’ It’s just typical BS that goes on when you’re black, man.”


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/25/ch...#ixzz4DvkH9TZH

I'm sorry but if you expect me to take an athlete view on a social issue as some sort of authority and because he's black and therefor for some reason has more authority i guess for you?
You are downright insulting my intelligence, since i have to be a fool to see this as more than anecdotal evidence and make me completely ignore the root of why this happens.

This again boils down to what your fellow americans have been trying to tell you. It's a money issue and poor programs such as schools not being standardized, i'm guessing that for any decent job you need a college degree right? That means your high school diploma's are worthless what again means that the root of the issue is the system not the race, it wouldn't surprise me that this behavior is found among all americans of all skin tone in poorer regions.

You know what the irony is? Better social systems, smarter government that doesn't just mean "less" would root out this problem over a few generation.

[mittacc]

The fail rate in the U.S. is not that bad. In US the top non-profit private schools have low acceptance rate. Some less than 5%. Top public schools vary from state to state. In CA around 10 – 16%. In Texas only the top 7% of high school graduates are guaranteed a fresman spot. A GPA of 4.0 is considered perfect in the U.S. The average weighted GPA (modified based on core classes taken, AP classes, school ranking) for 2017 incoming U.C. Berkeley students is 4.41. The incoming students are screened pretty thoroughly.

For-profit schools are a different story. Dollar talks when it comes to for-profit.

It's not a bad fail rate if they intentionally keep it at that level? The royal institute (KTH in sweden) is ranked as being in the top 100 in the world and best in Scandinavia in regard to engineering. Not sure how large percentage of the people from high school get accepted to the school but it requires pretty good grades. We have a system where a certain grade gives a factor multiplier to how many hours the course is studied for; E gives a factor of 10 and A a factor of 20. You summarize this and divide by the total hours spent and then get and average ranging from 10-20 with a possible bonus up to 2,5 points if you read certain courses that give merit.

Lowest acceptance for civil engineers is usually at 18-18,5 (most being between 19 and 21) so everyone has an average grade over B (B gives a factor of 17,5).

I can understand if you cba to read into this :P

[Spectral]

So you are using an unknown professor and an Incredibles meme to make your argument for you?

Bryan Caplan's not an unknown if you pay any attention to the economics blogosphere at all. If you don't, it seems odd to have strong feelings about the matter.

[Krille]

1. True there is free college alrdy and it's not a issue in other countries.
2. The other factor is not all jobs require college. example- my dad is a contractor hes making very good money. he never went to college.
3. not everyone wants to go to college. more school to them is gross. many people drop out of college too
4. There are so many different degrees nobody will be the same.

Heres something to think about.
I live in the usa and i've been going to college for free alrdy. I get grants all the time. 8 terms at 6-8credits have all been free for me /shrug
I will say this though the money only covers the books and classes. which means you have to work or live with your parents. and that does make things harder.

The world was a very different place "back then". I have an uncle that only finished high school, he got a decent job as operator, got some education (seminars really) through this job and is now working in positions usually taken by 6 years+ educated engineers. People could easily get some job and get positions the youth today can only dream of achieving without education.

[Krille]

It's not a bad fail rate if they intentionally keep it at that level? The royal institute (KTH in sweden) is ranked as being in the top 100 in the world and best in Scandinavia in regard to engineering. Not sure how large percentage of the people from high school get accepted to the school but it requires pretty good grades. We have a system where a certain grade gives a factor multiplier to how many hours the course is studied for; E gives a factor of 10 and A a factor of 20. You summarize this and divide by the total hours spent and then get and average ranging from 10-20 with a possible bonus up to 2,5 points if you read certain courses that give merit.

Lowest acceptance for civil engineers is usually at 18-18,5 (most being between 19 and 21) so everyone has an average grade over B (B gives a factor of 17,5).

I can understand if you cba to read into this :P

My university (Uppsala University) used to be a top 50 (overall) school in the world. But has since dropped. We're still top 20 world in medicine programs though and some other programs rank above 50. But it's somewhat difficult to get in.

[Spectral]

I don't know why but the extreme levels of boomer selfishness seems to have been a global phenomenon.

Something about the post-war economic booms would be my first guess.

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He'll probably say the one with the least minorities. Which is ironically right but that's not caused by their skin tone but due to those regions generally being poorer where there are more minorities, what is a heritage of the apartheid regimes.

The top ranked public non-charter in the country is only 31% white. Let's not use "minority" as a euphemism for "black". Education isn't a "minority" problem.

[Acidbaron]

Bryan Caplan's not an unknown if you pay any attention to the economics blogosphere at all. If you don't, it seems odd to have strong feelings about the matter.

Good thing that this goes beyond just economics, Also a professor arguing against more education is a fairly bad precedent. I guess from an economic point of view everyone being higher educated does not instantly gain a return more than it would cost the government, this is to be expected and but this also goes out that if college became free a large part of the population would use that.

This brings us back to something i said earlier, if a college degree is needed for any decent job this means the high school programs are failing nation wide. You should already be leaving high school with a good degree, if you leave high school you should both prepared to go for higher education if that was your study plan goal or have a degree that you would be fit to start working directly in a trade skill, being it car mechanic, electrician and so forth.

so this person is not wrong saying that free college as the only solution would be a bad thing for the state, financially. However it would be a good thing in long run if paired with high school reforms, a good thing financially and in general. Considering americans are so set on Freedom, remember that only a tyrannical government would want to keep their population stupid.

[khazlol]

In denmark we had to increase the grade requirements because we made to many useless acedemics.

[Acidbaron]

The top ranked public non-charter in the country is only 31% white. Let's not use "minority" as a euphemism for "black". Education isn't a "minority" problem.

And i'm stating that the problem is actually the education system and lack of social system and not related to color but economic state of the region the school is located in.

You would be better of giving that link to supertony, since he's making that argument not me.

[Milchshake]

Bryan Caplan's not an unknown if you pay any attention to the economics blogosphere at all. If you don't, it seems odd to have strong feelings about the matter.

You mean the Bryan Caplan that's a research fellow at not just one, but three Koch Bro's think tanks? Mercatus Center, "Institute for Humane Studies", Center for the Study of Public Choice.

The Koch brothers trying to make Bryan Caplan a thing, is like Hollywood trying to make Jai Courtney leading man.

[alexw]

I'm sorry but if you expect me to take an athlete view on a social issue as some sort of authority and because he's black and therefor for some reason has more authority i guess for you?
You are downright insulting my intelligence, since i have to be a fool to see this as more than anecdotal evidence and make me completely ignore the root of why this happens.

This again boils down to what your fellow americans have been trying to tell you. It's a money issue and poor programs such as schools not being standardized, i'm guessing that for any decent job you need a college degree right? That means your high school diploma's are worthless what again means that the root of the issue is the system not the race, it wouldn't surprise me that this behavior is found among all americans of all skin tone in poorer regions.

You know what the irony is? Better social systems, smarter government that doesn't just mean "less" would root out this problem over a few generation.

FYI the dailycaller is part of the US's right wing media walled garden. They don't ever portray contrasting points of view or ever challenge their readerships thinking, nor ever attempt to show impartiality, but rather portray the same biased narrative day after day after day. The end result is an indoctrinated demographic of society that cannot stand nor accept as correct anything that does not come from that walled media garden. That of course suits the owners of the aforesaid media because though those owners know its all garbage, it means they have media consumers who will keep coming back to them and won't stray to non walled garden media. It's also the main reason for trump and the batshit insanity that has taken over so much of the political right wing. They have been indoctrinated in extremism by a media that uses them as a cash stream while laughing at them. The left of course does have a little of the same but its nowhere near to the same scale and magnitude, or degree of bias.

[mittacc]

My university (Uppsala University) used to be a top 50 (overall) school in the world. But has since dropped. We're still top 20 world in medicine programs though and some other programs rank above 50. But it's somewhat difficult to get in.

Uppsala is in place 102 overall according to this. KTH was apparently at place 36 in engineering worldwide, glad to know
http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...=false+search=

[Krille]

Uppsala is in place 102 overall according to this. KTH was apparently at place 36 in engineering worldwide, glad to know
http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...=false+search=

Yes, as i said, it used to be top 50. But in certain disciplines (like medicine) it's still above 50.

[Spectral]

And i'm stating that the problem is actually the education system and lack of social system and not related to color but economic state of the region the school is located in.

You would be better of giving that link to supertony, since he's making that argument not me.

I don't think there's any good evidence that educational policy changes have significant long term impacts on the outcomes for a population. In short, I buy Arnold Kling's version of the null hypothesis. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

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You mean the Bryan Caplan that's a research fellow at not just one, but three Koch Bro's think tanks? Mercatus Center, "Institute for Humane Studies", Center for the Study of Public Choice.

The Koch brothers trying to make Bryan Caplan a thing, is like Hollywood trying to make Jai Courtney leading man.

If an economist being funded by people you don't like is a good reason to dismiss them, that's going to make a lot arguments a lot easier for me to make. Caplan's actual credentials are excellent - if you want to attack his ideas, do so directly instead of letting out a petulant whine that he's supported by people you don't like.

[Zecora]

Everyone wants college to be free, except no one thinks about the repercussions of everyone having a college degree. If everyone attained a college degree, then the value of a college degree would be worthless and we would be right back where we started.

Wrong. First off, not everyone will want to go to college / university. Secondly, not everyone will graduate. Thirdly, if there is a lack of people to fill jobs that only need a highschool diploma, wages for those jobs will go up, and more people will take that education instead. Fourthly, you still have to provide for yourself when you're going to highschool / uni, so rich kids will still have an edge. Happy now?

You don't have a case.

[Acidbaron]

I don't think there's any good evidence that educational policy changes have significant long term impacts on the outcomes for a population. In short, I buy Arnold Kling's version of the null hypothesis. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

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If an economist being funded by people you don't like is a good reason to dismiss them, that's going to make a lot arguments a lot easier for me to make. Caplan's actual credentials are excellent - if you want to attack his ideas, do so directly instead of letting out a petulant whine that he's supported by people you don't like.

A person being funded by an interest group has questionable motives, studies are also dismissed when ordered by certain interest groups, this is not absurd. It even makes me wonder if he wasn't on the conservative side but more on the democratic side if you would not instantly dismiss him almost blindly.

No i don't have a counter study by hand and i'm not going to read that entire study to see if it does actually says what you claim especially one that isn't peer reviewed and is posted on a blog of all places, browsing over it quickly it already makes me question if it actually says what you think it does. As it seems to be of methods of teachings, did you even read what it was about or did you just google something random here?

However if you're going to argue that more education does not create a benefit for society, you're free to do so but then i'm going to stop this conversation with you here since it's a waste of time for obvious reasons. If you're arguing that everyone having a college degree is not directly a benefit that is true but this depends highly on mandatory education a child gets, which in the US case seems to be seriously lacking in certain regions due to a lack of a nation wide study plan and it being funded locally.