[Retribution] What has Blizzard done THIS time?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

My point? Ret has a very fluid rotation and apart from exec sentance a very tight animation scheme, making the character feel absolutely awesome to play, and I 110% feel like a holy avenger of badassery for once.

No not really. We do have deadspots and haste may reduce it but it's still pretty frustrating. With the Judgement window, we are pressed to hit as many Tvs as possible in the 8 second window. With bad HP generation(BoJ is 10.5 second CD so taking BoW is a must to have a more fluid rotation same with TFOJ).

I mean, yeah it has lost abit on the mobility front, but it's gained so much, I mean it has more selfhealing than blood DKs at times if you use the new 5 holy power finisher from talents during stun windows, you can get this up to an easy 900k healing every 30 or so seconds, with possibility for even more. Thats basically a LoH every minute btw :P That alone is huge.

It lost Pursuit of Justice(Something we had before other classes got so we got a bitchslap from Blizzard). Emancipate. We only have Blessing of Freedom. Seal of Light is horrible of a talent as is Divine Steed since it's CD is too harsh.

Also your mention of JV is ramp up much like Divine Storm is, it's a ramp up heal and not something we use on the go. Flash of Light isn't very good and it costs a crap ton of mana to. We lost Word of Glory baseline as well and it's now a talent that basically does raid wide healing on a hefty CD.

And AoE? Ehm..... Zeal, Hammer (swirling one, dont recall name right now) and a okish haste of 20-25% and you have zero downtime and great cleavedmg.

Hammer of the Righteous now is Prot only now so that hurts us with AOE. While Judgement can have cleave if talented. We could take consecration but it's talented instead of baseline(It was in Wrath). Taking Zeal may do way more damage and do some cleave. Our rotation is slightly less fluid because of it. Haste may fix it but again big woop.

I'm sorry, but this is the best that Ret has been since its iteration, I'm sorry you lost a spec you enjoyed, it happened to me with shadow priest changes in legion, but from someone coming in fresh, Retribution finally feels appealing. Melee overall feels great in legion, that said I would main a prot warrior over a ret if not for one thing, self healing :P I always liked characters with solid selfhealing and ret def has that and then some.

Our Self Healing is not really that good at all. If we don't take Justicar Vengeance and if a target can't be stunned we don't get extra healing. We could take WoG but that's a raid heal more then self heal. Our utility is near non existent. Blizzard considers our blessings and which btw they balance us on(3 GBOMs on an ally). That utility....SUCH UTILITARIAN!

Not to mention I managed to get over 1.300k dmg with 3 buttons during a 6 second stun window, and thats using skills with at most a 30 second CD timer, that is pretty sick and it feels amazing.

Ok...? there's really no context to that. Ret isn't great, it's not what it used to be in WoD. The downtime we have may be mitgated by Haste but it's going to take a long time before that happened. It's going to be grueling for Paladins to get through. I'm sure others can explain the issues but our issues are semi prune related.


Blizzard said we are supposed to be an unmoving juggernaut. That doesn't really work in WoW.

[elvor0]

TBC was somewhat complex in that there was a very exact rotation, and you had mana to manage (unless a kekadin of course). Vanilla... eh, monitoring your blessings was more important .

Heh heh, SoB master race! :P I did enjoy the opportunities I got to raid as Ret in TBC, but I think in retrospect that was borne out of just getting to raid as Ret.

[Laqweeta]

Alright all..this here is my take on ret after having played it on the PTR for a month or so and maining the spec since 2.9 drop on live at the end of TBC when they retooled us and prot from using int and spellpower into the use of strength and attackpower.. So anyways, without further adue..here we go folks.

l
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Blizzard's whipping bitch since end of Wrath going forward..coming up on 8 years and a 4th xpac of being a joke. Gotta love Blizzard's plans for us..oh wait they havent had one of those in nearly a century. They basically have turned us into a worse arms warrior with a blue rage bar with how judgment and our horrible mastery change works now..it might aswell be Co-Smash with a different name....

We get no cleave whatsoever outside of divine storm, with seal of the righteous, and hammer of righteousness removed.. So our only option is a 3 GCD wait to even use this one AoE option and zero on demand multi-target with what one whole attack we have hits for shit nothing like everything else we have besides TV, partway in thanks to this "single target only now, lol" joke mastery swap Blizz gave us so we have this huge step backward as a spec to return to the days players pissed and whined about us, and players did the same of the playstyle of being "all burst, nothing else" that they've tried to divert us from since Wrath's end when we were given Holy Power to "solve this issue" that turned us into a plate rogue..

Our talent choices are the exact opposite of Blizzard's claimed intention of "you can pick which you want to suit your playstyle" when almost every tier of damage abilities (15-30-60-100) has two single target choices and a single AoE focused choice that we're going to have to constantly be shifting back and forth from everytime a fight calls for any kind of cleave, at the cost of what single target ability or quality of life buff we previously had. They took us from 6 attacks and 2 finishers to 3 and 2..flash of light heals for practically nothing and our quick, on-demand survivability self healing and damage mitigation (divine protection) is gone..

We somehow retained this setup we have in WoD of "You suck shit outside of this certain time span" that is our current "Avenging Wrath up for our damage to be even slightly noticeable" and how judgment will work to do the same. "Was the cooldown up so you could put up your debuff and do actual damage?"..the two are practically the same, if it wasnt available you get to be mediocure til it is. PvP target swapping will be bottlenecked by judgment debuff to have a mastery whatsoever as you get to open-up on one target just to be shit the moment you need to switch to his buddy until judgment is off CD.

Our gap closing is now abysmal, with the most consistant speed boosts we had in Long Arm and Pursuit gone now... And last, as a player who is quite keen on the "lore" feel of a class' play that makes them "feel" like their class from a fantasy perspective..we've lost all but everything that made us actually feel like this spell wielding, crusader warrior, hero of might and magic that we once were..and just might aswell be an arms warrior.

And best yet..we went from 17 spells between attacks, raid utility and mitigation..down to 8. Execution sentence, Exorcism, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Emancipation, Blessing of Sac, WoG, Divine Protection...all gone, 9 spells, gone with 2 of them technically still existing, but needing to be talented into to have as part of our toolbox again. If you want to get picky with things it would be 10 with the lose of our Seals system..and even a lose of a quality of life aspect, that being TV's chance on hit to empower our next Divine Storm that it deals additional damage.

All we have left is Wings, LoH, Bubble, CS, Judgment, TV, DS, and a new spell given to us, Blade of Wrath. ..So all of 8 surviveability, "utility" and DPS spells remain to simplify our spec from its days of feeling like a true hybrid and mix of this caster melee that a paladin should be, calling on the Light to aid us in combat.

So now we just get to be this simplified, boring spec, all because having this toolbox of spells, situational as they may be, and needing to be understood when and how to use them to get benifit and gains out of them makes players licking Windex off the windows scared, and cry out for Blizzard to hold their hand and make it all better.

Somehow I feel like I'm not even my class/spec anymore.. I wonder why? Any ideas?

And this is why I play private servers. Wotlk/Cata (albeit Cata's PvP damage was intense as fuck) at least I can still feel like the class I chose plays like the CLASS I chose.

Oh, PS.. A LOT of players feel the same way as you do. But Blizzard has too many people cheering for them so they don't listen to what actually needs to be listened to. I'm gonna call this now, Legion will be more of a failure than WoD. Hate me on this, call me names etc.. But I called it. And I can't WAIT for the day to shove it in your faces. c:

[Teleros]

From someone who has traditionally only played caster

Forgive me, but if this is so, "this is the best Ret has been since its iteration" seems a peculiar thing to say when set against the many lifelong Rets who disagree. Now whilst I agree a lot of this is subjective, it honestly sounds like you lack experience in Ret.

[pmkaboo]

Somehow I feel like I'm not even my class/spec anymore.. I wonder why? Any ideas?

maybe because thats the whole point of a redesign.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

maybe because thats the whole point of a redesign.

Thanks for your constructive comment on my obvious prod that was in complete sarcasm that I cannot portray through text without #Kappa attached.

- - - Updated - - -

Heh heh, SoB master race! :P I did enjoy the opportunities I got to raid as Ret in TBC, but I think in retrospect that was borne out of just getting to raid as Ret.

Oh Seal of Blood..the days where being a ret made you play a complete masochist. ..Oh those were the better days. ..Not that we as players aren't complete masochists ourselves anyway with playing this spec that Blizzard xpac in and xpac out continues to anally fist, elbow deep giving us the ol' "colon cleanser" to make us dance around like a total meat puppet for their sick amusement. ..Theres that too.

[elvor0]

And I can't WAIT for the day to shove it in your faces. c:

Truly, it is the little things in life that make it worth living.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Truly, it is the little things in life that make it worth living.

Oh when it comes around..it will be GLORIOUS to see Blizz cower at the playerbase and the H-A-T-E for how so many classes have gone from "If I play it good and use things I have when I SHOULD I do better than the other nameless nobody beside me, woohoo!" - to "I have 3 buttons, yay? What happened to those other buttons I hit when (Insert situation here) happened and did all those big numbers and went high on the meter?"

[snackfeat]

Well apart from BC, Vanilla, WoTLK.... I really miss those wildly complex days of Judgement/CS and er....that was it actually. If there was an undead or demon, you'd even get a third button!

And there is a priority for WoD, you don't just mash buttons, it's not whackamole unless you aren't actually trying to optimize your DPS.

At least with WoD Ret it's fast, active and bombastic for single target, Legion really does just seem to boil down to CS, BoW, CS CS, Judgement, TV, CS, TV, WoA, TV, CS, maybe TV again if you can fit it in, rinse and repeat til the end of days. Obviously that's going to change a bit with higher levels of haste, but that actually makes it a bit more simplistic as you might not have to worry about Judgement downtime. Of course if you get lucky with DP, TV TV TV TV.

How is that thoughtful, engaging or more complex?

It's more thoughtful, because you at least have to pay attention to the judgment window. The current ret is nothing but HoW, CS, HoW, TV, repeat during AW which is close to 50% of the time.

Sure you could say it feels fast to mash those 3 buttons as hard as you can but is it really interesting to spam that shit for 50% of the fight and only otherwise use judgment and exorcism because it's better than nothing, even though they both do fuck all damage.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

It's more thoughtful, because you at least have to pay attention to the judgment window. The current ret is nothing but HoW, CS, HoW, TV, repeat during AW which is close to 50% of the time.

Sure you could say it feels fast to mash those 3 buttons as hard as you can but is it really interesting to spam that shit for 50% of the fight and only otherwise use judgment and exorcism because it's better than nothing, even though they both do fuck all damage.

50% of a fight..that as soon as we lose our current tier gear set...will otherwise melt away and remove that exact thing of which you speak.

As for fuck-all damage..you mean the entirety of ret's current damage setup on Beta? ..Since not only does two attacks feel they do fuck-all there..its instead everything we have across the board that still all manage to catch nerf after nerf after nerf, despite our current condition, and output in Mythic+ and Raid testing environments. Case in point, judgment catching a 42% nerf to it's ashbringer trait, and the rollback CD time of Blade just last patch, when we can hardly in a equalized 30 man raid see ourselves past 20th on the meter, if that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's more thoughtful, because you at least have to pay attention to the judgment window. The current ret is nothing but HoW, CS, HoW, TV, repeat during AW which is close to 50% of the time.

Sure you could say it feels fast to mash those 3 buttons as hard as you can but is it really interesting to spam that shit for 50% of the fight and only otherwise use judgment and exorcism because it's better than nothing, even though they both do fuck all damage.

It's no more skillfull then what it is on Live. So skillfull to pay attention to pay attention to Judgement debuff!

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

It's no more skillfull then what it is on Live. So skillfull to pay attention to pay attention to Judgement debuff!

Exactly..just now we have less situational buttons to understand how to use and use properly to get the best yield from them..its just mediocrity spoonfed to us for no better reason then dumbing down the game for those who disliked having to actually know how to play their class or spec, and make use of those benefits they had, situational as they might have been.

[minteK917]

This is not the worst ret has been, but close.

Time when ret was worse then legion:

Vanilla: You really only came to the raid for the buff. I guess blessing of might is their idea of a throwback. But in vanilla you did nothing else until you had full raid leather you stole from the rogues.

TBC until S4/Sunwell. Again ret took full perfect gear and windfury totem to be in pve and pvp. Going out of mana in pvp and seal getting dispelled meant the only thing ret could do was have a shaman and an arm warrior in its back pocket.

Cata release: Near unplayable mess doing tanklike dps. Was quickly buffed both in the number and given back a dispell (emancipate).

So we have 3 scenario when ret was worse or as bad as it is now. They all handled them differently.

Vanilla: did nothing, until tbc beta, buffed them big. They were good, nerfed into the ground to be trash before release.

TBC: did nothing, made them overpowered in WOTLK. Nerf in prepatch. Remained competent in pvp and pve all of wotlk.

Cata: quickly buffed to a decent spot early. Given back utility to actually be useful in pvp. Rise of the ret/dps/dps comps.

If we are lucky, ret gets cata treament when they see they fucked up.

If we are not unlucky, we suck all expansion and then become the fotm overpowered shit in the next expansion prepatch.

Unlucky, we got back to vanilla dark ages, next expansion does nothing.

[Dristereau]

I have limited experience of Ret for Legion, just some PTR mess around. Between the new animations and abilities, I feel less like a Paladin than I did before. I just look at it and don't see Ret as advancing but receding to change into something new. It feels more like a Warrior than before, which I suppose isn't really a bad thing as a Retribution Paladin is a Holy Warrior, but I feel a lot more a grounded Ret Paladin than the High Fantasy Paladin of before.

The mobility is terrible. It reminds me somewhat of running at enemy Players on my Mount so I could actually get close. The mobility choices in WoD have been amazing, and I've felt LAotL should be baked into Judgement. Loosing Hammer of Wrath makes the Rotation static now, instead of changing at 20% in terms of abilities used and priorities.

To be honest though, I'm not exactly upset, more disappointed, as my Paladin is no longer my Main and I don't plan to play it over Warrior/DK. Prot Paladin looks absolutely appalling and Ret isn't exactly selling the Paladin Class to me right now. Had problems adjusting to Holy Power when it was added in Cata and was useless until 4.3 with PVE Tier, but instead of sticking with it this time, I have Alts

I still see Paladin's being brought to Raids. But having OP Buffs for whatever other Class is FotM is the main reason.

[Aerknard]

Unlucky, we got back to vanilla dark ages, next expansion does nothing.

Garrosh Hellscream to Guldan: "Time's change"

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Snipped.

Love the reply and I am glad to see others can agree with my assessment of the class and where we have fallen to, be it in large regard or point to point. Thank you for the input

[snackfeat]

It's no more skillfull then what it is on Live. So skillfull to pay attention to pay attention to Judgement debuff!

I did not say skillful, no class in this game takes any actual skill unless you have trouble doing things like folding a shirt or opening a door.
It's more thoughtful because you don't even need to look at your screen to do the current rotation in WoD.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

I did not say skillful, no class in this game takes any actual skill unless you have trouble doing things like folding a shirt or opening a door.
It's more thoughtful because you don't even need to look at your screen to do the current rotation in WoD.

Yup, sure don't with all them procs to hit as they come up. ..Brb while I write a script to do the Ret Legion rotation so I can 1 button cast sequence my way through the all of 3 attacks outside of my spenders.

[snackfeat]

Yup, sure don't with all them procs to hit as they come up. ..Brb while I write a script to do the Ret Legion rotation so I can 1 button cast sequence my way through the all of 3 attacks outside of my spenders.

Again, what procs are you talking about? WoD ret have no procs that you actually use..

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Again, what procs are you talking about? WoD ret have no procs that you actually use..

...Empowered divine storm in single target situations, exorcism.