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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Have to agree with one of your earlier responses. Both sites are pretty much wrong most of the time. Stick to the threads on here that are posted by known performers and you will do much better.
    Icy veins is definately not "wrong most of the time".

    Its actually very right most of the time, it just doesnt go into great detail about why its right, or WHEN its not right.

    Obviously, especially in legion, you cant make 1 talent spec thats best for everything.

    Common sense plus Icy Veins = win.

  2. #22
    Noxxic is utter garbage. Why would you even consider that dumpster website?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rarespawn2012 View Post
    Ahh, this reminds me of the old days of "Big Red Kitty"
    Miss Big Red Kitty... and the game this was back then.

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrannicalPuppy View Post
    FatBossTV makes boss guides. Just google "how to play [class]" if you're struggling with your class.
    This. FatBoss has a lot of alpha footage of raid boss testing. Keep in mind things may change slightly on live but at the very worst the guides are a good start.

    The class forums here have up to date discussions but there's probably a lot of useless banter mixed in. Eventually we'll see some consensus and formal guides from there. Watch for more discussion once pre patch hits.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Personal opinion only here: Other sites raised their game considerably
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It was a club for the chosen with extreme moderation
    Not really. Elitist Jerks was build around their hard mode raiding guild with extreme performance. They declined when they stopped being a hard mode raiding guild of extreme performance.

    Watcher, the developer, was in that guild. Right now he is not on that level of gaming.

  6. #26
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    no point upading icy-veins when stuff gets changed every 3rd day
    for noxxic, i think they have statprio/rotations from wotl still
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  7. #27
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    Not really. Elitist Jerks was build around their hard mode raiding guild with extreme performance. They declined when they stopped being a hard mode raiding guild of extreme performance.

    Watcher, the developer, was in that guild. Right now he is not on that level of gaming.
    The web site, not the guild.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  8. #28
    Main reason most aren't updated yet is the nice lovely gnomies behind the scenes are still working on the tools needed and\or not raiding at the level and regularity required to make definitive statements about "how to XXXXXXX", give it some time dude the expansion isn't even released yet.

    Also don't use just one source for help with how to get the most out of your class.

    Read Icy Veins, Read Class forums, Watch videos. Read Noxxic if you like cause if you do the previous you will see for yourself that Noxxic has a lot of bad information which will cause you to actually be worse. When 3 sources are saying X and one source is saying Y chances are the solitary stand out is wrong. But if you want don't accept that. do some testing yourself it isn't like it's rocket surgery, run some sims, use the different setup in an LFR then do the same LFR with the other setup and compare sure it won't be 100% reliable but it will give you an idea of who\which\what is actually factual.
    Last edited by FertsBlert; 2016-07-09 at 11:47 PM.
    When I was younger I used to hope bad things wouldn't happen.
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  9. #29
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    Anyone have an example of misinformation on Noxxic ?

  10. #30
    Noxxic is garbage.
    I'm sure icy veins has done a lot of work towards releasing their content for legion but since it's still changing and tuning it wouldn't make any sense to release it yet.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by hypofyse View Post
    Anyone have an example of misinformation on Noxxic ?
    There isn't much, a lot of the hate is just parroted. The biggest example I remember is the website not telling hunters to gem arpen past a certain ilevel back in wrath. But it's not a website structured for squeezing every last percentage of damage out of your class, and that's what people don't realize or don't like.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyfaria View Post
    You need those sites to play this game? Those sites are for beginners/noobs. It just give the "basics" to playing your class and killing a boss. Everything else you will either need to figure out yourself, or do a crap ton of research throughout many different websites.
    As long as there is a community focused on the "optimal" way to do things, the right talents, the right artifact build, the right rotation etc then those sites will remain a necessity.
    They are a product of the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Well if you were intent on squeezing every last % of dps out of your class you wouldn't make do with just one site would you.. perhaps it's just the usual mmo-hyperbole of "it's not perfect so it's trash"

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellorion View Post
    Speaking of, why did Elitist Jerks die
    Blizzard got better at expansion wide numbers tuning, so there was no longer a shifting stat priority the way there had been throughout WotLK and 1/2 of Cataclysm.

    This dried up traffic and impacted a lot of other sites - such as this one. Since EJ was concentrated mostly on gameplay and core mechanics there just wasn't a need for the forums and it faltered.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The web site, not the guild.
    The web site was built around their guild. In any case, it was the usual response I was getting when I was asking the same question when they first declined from prominence. To be honest I hadn't even noticed the connection between the guild and the website, but after they told me I looked it up and it made sense, Elitist Jerks was a guild that built the community of the theorycrafting forum and they just declined from hard mode raiding in general, at the same time with the website.

    It's very hard to be a coincidence, especially if many of them were actively participating in the forum.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Xudomus View Post
    Yeah but does top 10 DPS in LFR count?

    Jokes aside, the problem I've always had with IV, is that while their guide writers/editors are Mythic Raiders, very rarely do they go into detail about why a choice is good. That's not to say they don't offer a lot of different options, like different stat priorities for different talent combinations/rotations, but they don't give the details that would allow the player to think for themselves.

    Just as a simple example, the other day I was talking with a guildie who had just leveled a Shaman alt, and had looked at IV for stat priority. IV suggested a great priority, but great for progression right at the start of 6.2, and not at all relevant this late in the expansion for someone who's just going to be pugging/doing LFR. The problem is that the guide didn't say why that priority was good, why those stats were important, or how they interacted with the spec passives/mechanics.

    This is the problem with these sites, they just don't give the players the tools to make their own decisions, they just offer cookie-cutter-esque specs. But hey, if you just want the choices that make you do DPS and not understand why they work then by all means, keep using IV, that's what they're good for. (And I do mean that in the best way possible, not sarcasm)

    - - - Updated - - -

    And just for further reading for those of you who want to do it, Sunnier, a well known Brewmaster Monk, has some better worded arguments/thoughts than my own, might do a better job getting the point across

    http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...cutter-builds/
    http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...irty-audience/
    Sunnier makes a fairly apt explanation, but to give you more insight from someone who writes guides both here, on Icy-Veins, and for various other outlets, it is all about target audience. Icy-Veins uses a very specific, structured layout; in fact, "we" (the class experts) don't even write the guides, we simply give them the info and they use their own formatting. They do this for uniformity, but it means that not everything always translates over very well. Some classes don't need a lot of explanation for various mechanics or why things are how they are, others need pictures, graphs and powerpoint presentations to explain exactly why certain mechanics work the way they do. Obviously this doesn't all fit into the type of uniformity that Icy-Veins tries to present.

    At any rate, Icy-Veins is by and large a place to get a relatively easy to read "this is what you do" explanation, however it doesn't have the community base to keep up with discussions on the why of things. Because of this, most of us tailor our guides appropriately. It's important to remember that most people looking for guides aren't really concerned with the why, they simply want to know what and how.

    MMO-C on the other hand, has a much more active and talkative community, so guides here tend to be a little more in-depth on the mechanical side of things. This doesn't mean MMO-C is better, even as a power player, often you don't care for the in-depth and only want the basic "this is better than that" so you can get on with playing. Icy-Veins uniformity also means that I don't need to figure out where to look for information, I know that regardless of which guide I look at, the same information is going to be in the same place, which saves me from having to search around when two guides on MMO-C are written completely differently.

    In the end, it's just about identifying what information you need and going to the appropriate place. If it's a new alt that I'm not particularly interested in min/maxing performance with, I'll go to Icy-Veins; not because it's information is any less detailed, but because it's simpler and I can get information without having to read up on the exact mechanics. If I become invested in the character and really want to understand the ins and outs, I'll visit a privately maintained guide or community resource so that I can spend more time learning the fine details.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And yes, one reason that much of the information hasn't been updated for pre-patch yet is because many of us are still working out the exact details due to continual tuning changes. Speaking personally, I've put most of my work into actual Legion content and could care less about the pre-patch, it's not balanced in the least and certain specs are going to dumpster others because they are/not as heavily reliant on their artifact traits, or they scale better with particular stats, and so on.

    The information doesn't really help anyone right now anyway, we are still a few weeks away from pre-patch, and all the information would do right now is assuage the excitement of players who want to think about their new class/spec. Ultimately though, they can't do anything with that knowledge until the pre-patch drops. Rest assured, it'll be updated in time.

  17. #37
    Hi everyone!

    I just wanted to put my 2 cents into the discussion, mainly to answer a few of the points that have been floating around. I'll preface this by saying that I'm the CM for Icy Veins, as well as a writer there, but I'm going to try and give as much of an un-biased response as possible.

    Firstly, in response to the OP, we haven't yet released guides for Legion because things are still changing. A good example of a big change happening is the Frost Mage - Brain Freeze interaction. We'd rather release a solid and up-to-date guide when it is needed on live servers. If we were constantly updating our guides, it would take a considerable amount of time out of our working days, given that we have to monitor every spec. If these changes were taking place on live, we'd be updating our guides as soon as those changes went out. It takes more time unfortunately to update our guides than it does a forum post; I am by no means belittling what the contributors do on forums, especially here on MMO, there are some simply fantastic guides, but it's definitely faster to add a section to a forum post or change it, than it is to do so on our site. This is mainly due to conformity of style between guides, visuals etc.

    In regards to boss by boss guides, we recently recruited Furty onto our team of writers. We are planning to introduce a new style of guides for the site, as can be seen in our Destruction guide. It will feature boss by boss guides, stat weights and so on.

    In regards to Icy Veins being "wrong most of the time", I disagree. Whether readers have checked the information just after a patch and found it not updated in the past or they simply disagree, this certainly won't be true in Legion. We have a solid set of top tier raiders that are going to be reviewing everything going into our guides. They generally provide the information that they use themselves when assessing what to use or do, so if it works for them, I assume it should work for us too.

    As Archi said above, it's also important to note what you are getting from each site. As he says, Icy Veins guides don't feature those seriously in-depth, maths-ey discussion about stats. We present information that is tried and tested for people to use on their own characters. If they feel something is wrong, they can raise it in our comments and we can look into it. I'm going to quote from him here, as it's essentially true - "It's important to remember that most people looking for guides aren't really concerned with the why, they simply want to know what and how."

    Anyway, hopefully this answers a few questions and I wasn't too biased. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't too much confusion about IV related things! Thanks for reading

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