"You can't inspect people and see their Artifact unlock progress."

[Super Kami Dende]

But you can! And there's pretty much nothing Blizz can to block players from seeing amount of nodes unlocked in your nearby target's currently equipped artifact.

1. Take GearScore as baseline. Or Exorsus Raid Tools which can inspect raid members.
2. Get base HP for target's class and level from the table.
3. Inspect target's gear, calculate stamina -> HP from gear.
4. Divide target's actual HP by (base_HP + gear_HP), you get 0.75%*X where X is amount of artifact nodes unlocked. (or subtract, w/e, you get the idea)
5. ???
6. Profit!

I'm not familiar enough with Lua and Blizzard API to code this, but for an experienced addon author should be easy. I ask you to do this ASAP, it's very useful for all forms of non-random group play.

seeing how many Nodes are unlocked =/= to seeing what nodes are unlocked.

[ComputerNerd]

Then how are we supposed to determine their skill level without trialing them and without looking at their gear? What is your solution?

Perhaps actually interacting with people beyond the bare minimum amount.
What do those numbers prove about their readiness.
Not a thing.
That is why requirements are inflated, because those numbers are proving to be insufficient.

There is no numeric measure, nothing you can examine a player for that will tell you that.
No single part, nor any combination of those.
So stop trying to find one.

And that is all that number is, another attempt to pull a number from a player to make a judgement from.
Adding in yet another number is not going to yield the results you want.

[Deleted]

Now, I don't do pugs for multiple reasons, but even if I did, would I bother getting an addon just to check their progress when I can simply armory them? Probably not. It'll just be Gearscore v2.0 and equally pointless. People really blow these things out of proportion for no reason, normal / HC is generally possible to clear while playing one handed and I don't see that changing much for Legion either.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

And I gave mine of why they should not be used.
If you don't like that, tough.
It has been made clear the impact that such simplifications have had.

This is not leading to anything good.

I see you are indeed shallow.
You seem not to like that, tough.
But you are right it is clear the impact that such simplification have had.
We totally agree but for some reason you disagree we agree when we agree.

This is leading to one thing.
You are a derp deeee derp computer dee dee dee dooooo.

[cFortyfive]

I would hope so since artifact talents are certainly a significant part of quite a couple of specs. Kinda funny how many people imply you should have to waste time on imbeciles.

normal / HC is generally possible to clear while playing one handed and I don't see that changing much for Legion either.

While the latter is obviously not wrong it isn't the reality for most of the players in any game.

[ComputerNerd]

You just said we shouldn't trial or vet them though. What is the bare minimum? Again, have you ever tried pugging a raid on a populated server? You get tons of responses during peak times of the game. How am I supposed to determine who to bring? You didn't answer that question.

I said try talking to people instead of looking for simplistic measures which so far have proven nothing.
I said that many times, but that is not the answer you want.
As far as you are concerned the only approach is one with as little interaction as possible, to be as quick as possible.
Regardless of the consequences.

As I said NO such measure that you want to rely on can tell you what you actually want it to, what you claim it can do, want you try to convince yourself it is actually doing.
All of those can be looked up online.
So why this insistence that those are some magic solution, because they aren't.
You go on this forum, on any theorycrafting site etc and there will be a set of instructions on how to do it "right".
So someone tell me exactly what examining those on a player is going to actually prove.

And to help - here is the actual context, which shows the orignal "no you can't" statement to be wrong, just not something they believed you could do directly.

There are no intentions of requring specific levels of artifact progression to do certain content.
We still intend to have item level requirements for that content, and putting relics in your artifact will increase your item level.
Going out and getting those relics naturally gives you the power to level that artifact so things should play out pretty naturally in that sense.
It is just item level we are looking at as requirements.

As far as how important artifact power will become in premade groups
It is a bit hard to predict the social norms there.
Artifact power, it does make a big difference in your power, but because of the way we are doing those catchup curves we are not expecting there to be a wide divide in between players in most circumstances.
So some people may get really demanding about having specific progression, it's possible.
But hopefully it doesn't play out that strongly.

It is worth noting it is actually relatively difficult to see what someone's artifact is actually at.
Its not something you can inspect very easily on other players, correct ?

Yeah, it is worth saying that when we talk about the ilvl of the artifact, and the relics you are putting in to increase it, that's going to have a larger influence on the damage your're doing through that weapon in a lot of cases than progression unless we're talking like zero to end.
But yes, I don't believe it is possible to inspect other people and see artifact progress.
It'll help with the fear of a premade group saying "you haven't unlocked all your golds entirely just yet, so your're not invited yet"

As you can see, they don't want that to be a norm.
They don't want to to become a typical measure.
Yet that is exactly what every other attempt to simplify a player down to a number has become.

[Deleted]

There are no intentions of requring specific levels of artifact progression to do certain content.
We still intend to have item level requirements for that content, and putting relics in your artifact will increase your item level.
Going out and getting those relics naturally gives you the power to level that artifact so things should play out pretty naturally in that sense.
It is just item level we are looking at as requirements.

As far as how important artifact power will become in premade groups
It is a bit hard to predict the social norms there.
Artifact power, it does make a big difference in your power, but because of the way we are doing those catchup curves we are not expecting there to be a wide divide in between players in most circumstances.
So some people may get really demanding about having specific progression, it's possible.
But hopefully it doesn't play out that strongly.

It is worth noting it is actually relatively difficult to see what someone's artifact is actually at.
Its not something you can inspect very easily on other players, correct ?

Yeah, it is worth saying that when we talk about the ilvl of the artifact, and the relics you are putting in to increase it, that's going to have a larger influence on the damage your're doing through that weapon in a lot of cases than progression unless we're talking like zero to end.
But yes, I don't believe it is possible to inspect other people and see artifact progress.
It'll help with the fear of a premade group saying "you haven't unlocked all your golds entirely just yet, so your're not invited yet"

As you can see, they don't want that to be a norm.
They don't want to to become a typical measure.
Yet that is exactly what every other attempt to simplify a player down to a number has become.

Apart from the blue text, it's important to listen to the audio and watch the interview because in this case I believe they were a bit out of their depth. Craig isn't really the expert on those things, Watcher appears to be that recently, and Lore is mainly a management/promotion guy. I don't believe I heard two people talking conclusively about it.

The first thing that is very clear about this is that they were mainly talking about LFR, LFD and the 5mans "min ilevel" box because that's where they detect ilevel and they deny based on ilevel and they were clearly talking about that mechanic of denying based on ilevel.

Since I didn't hear 2 people that were talking conclusively about the higher level premade groups, and they were clearly referring a lot to the LFR/LFD system, I wouldn't be surprised if they'll just make it possible to inspect or at least armory the information.

[ykiigor]

Devs are very incompetent in this limitation. You need 1 pull to view all this traits via saved logs, but you can't view traits via ingame inspecting. Only way to view this traits ingame is when both players (RL and raider for ex.) have installed addon that can share this info before pull. Works for guilds, but not for pugs.

[ComputerNerd]

When did I say it was a magical solution? you still haven't come up with one yourself, just keep saying mine is crap basically. Again, when you have 10-15 people wanting 2-3 raid spots for a pug that we want to start in the next 30 minutes, there is no feasible way for me to determine who are truly the best players to take. There will always be some method of elimination which is typically gearscore/ilvl or simply looking at their gear. First, I typically eliminate people that haven't experienced the content. Then, I decide who the top 5 are gear wise and but also eliminate people who take obviously wrong abilities in their talent tree. Yes, anyone can look up the "correct" answer online, but you'd be surprised how often online guides are outdated or just plain wrong. There's very few that are updated consistently and even those may only give a general cookie cutter build while the real best talents are a bit different and change on a boss by boss basis. All of this may take me 5 minutes to look up armory profiles. Once I get narrowed down, I may ask something like what their average dps is on a particular fight. This weeds people out greatly because you can get ridiculous answers often times. Either an impossibly high number of something laughably low.

If some reason gearscore/ilvl and achievements were impossible to see, then you're right, I would have to talk to them but what kind of conversation are you expecting? I would simply ask what their dps is like on so so fight and how much experience they have. Again, the problem with this is that I may end up taking the worst players who messaged me and there's no real way of knowing until we start an encounter and we see that they suck. Then we have to spend another 20-30 minutes replacing them. Raids fall apart all the time because people just don't want to sit around waiting to find more people.

Seriously, why are you defending this? Even if there was a negative, the positives vastly outweigh them.

I keep saying that talking to people used to result in better problem resolution, instead of trying to overpower the content with inflated requirements.
I have kept saying that, but you choose to ignore it saying repeatedly that I suggest nothing.
You refuse to accept any solution that does not involve simplifying a player down to a number.
You have proven that by constant dismissal of what I said
I have repeatedly brought up trying to interact with people beyond judging them on a number.
But you keep insisting I said nothing.
How is that nothing ?
It is only something you don't like, a considerable difference.

As that video pointed out correctly, there is good reason for that oversimplified judgement to be as minimal as possible.
We can see already what those measurements have done for the community, and what another one WILL do.
Anyone saying that isn't a negative is outright lying, and is only doing so because they want to continue making judgements with as little effort as possible.
What did gearscore do, what did increased visibility of item level do ?
Quicker judgements on less information which as proven by the repeated desire to inflate those requirements have not proved useful.

And as I said repeatedly HOW DO THOSE MEASURES PROVE ANYTHING when a player can look up all of that online.
Nobody wants to answer that, because you can't.

Those judgements are skewing the picture.
They show that someone can do the equivalent of netdecking.
Yet I am being told repeatedly they prove that someone can play their class.

How does having a certain number of artifact traits given the grind behind AP prove anything.
There isn't a skill element to that progression.
There aren't some gated behind some "difficult" content or anything of the sort.

[Sting]

I see where you guys are coming from, I just mean for the people who don't lie and are genuinely amazing at their class who are in lower gear. There are people in rare gear who perform better than those in full epics because of their skill level. I guess assholes always ruin everything for everyone lol.

Ah yes, there are obviously tons of those players. They only play 1 hour every week, but boy do they know their class!

- - - Updated - - -

Devs are very incompetent in this limitation. You need 1 pull to view all this traits via saved logs, but you can't view traits via ingame inspecting. Only way to view this traits ingame is when both players (RL and raider for ex.) have installed addon that can share this info before pull. Works for guilds, but not for pugs.

If such a sharing addon would be made, it's pretty likely going to be mandatory to have it when pugging, since everybody will expect you to have it.

[jettzypher]

Seems to me that you just need a larger guild with more regular people to pull from. *shrug*


So you can't check to see how many ranks they've unlocked? Big deal. You could have someone spend zero time doing nothing beyond world quests, farming rares, and hunting treasure chests. This would result in a higher rank for their weapon but at a much lower ilevel, as opposed to someone that has done some of the raids and has the gear your looking for but maybe hasn't been able to put in as much effort into farming artifact power.

There is no metric here; no way to quantify the player as being "good" simply because of something can be ground out solo. Demanding this knowledge is little different than knowing how friendly they are with the local factions. Yes, I understand that higher ranks provides more dps/utility/etc. But not knowing this information is not the end of the world. Knowing what gear they possess as well as any progress in the raid will suffice as it has for all these years.

[Jotaux]

I just mean that artifact traits are not > skill, anyone who thinks so is laughable.

Its because skill is irrelevant when looking at people. You have no way to measure their skill and what would you prefer a shitty player geared out the ass or a a shitty player in greens?

[Unholyground]

Ah yes, there are obviously tons of those players. They only play 1 hour every week, but boy do they know their class!

- - - Updated - - -



If such a sharing addon would be made, it's pretty likely going to be mandatory to have it when pugging, since everybody will expect you to have it.

I don't know, I am pretty damn good with every class, doesn't take long to figure them out, especially after having all the classes at max level for like 4 expansions. People just jump to conclusions too quickly.

[Deleted]

The important point that remains here is that if artifact power isn't a panacea, ilevel isn't a panacea either. So it's a double standard to accept the ilevel inspection but not accept the artifact inspection. In any case I expect the artifacts to be inspectable/armoryable and if they are not it will be a mistake, the cons would be more impactful than the pros.

[Kryos]

I'm practically a watered down version of House. I know perfectly well that everybody lies.
Ask them. THEN, if they can't perform to the expectation they've set up for themselves, you look them up on their armory or whatever.
Much more positive outlook for everyone without wasting the resources making yet ANOTHER judgmental add-on.

So waste time on a liar? Just check them with a tool and you know. You can ask them AND check and then you know if you just asked a liar or a honest person.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know, I am pretty damn good with every class, doesn't take long to figure them out, especially after having all the classes at max level for like 4 expansions. People just jump to conclusions too quickly.

I think others, not you, should be the judge if you are "pretty damn good". I know a few guys who claimed to be "very good" and they sucked badly. Some seem to love themself so much they avoid neutral judgements (cold hard number checks) and just prefer to tell themself how great they are.

[Unholyground]

So waste time on a liar? Just check them with a tool and you know. You can ask them AND check and then you know if you just asked a liar or a honest person.

- - - Updated - - -



I think others, not you, should be the judge if you are "pretty damn good". I know a few guys who claimed to be "very good" and they sucked badly. Some seem to love themself so much they avoid neutral judgements (cold hard number checks) and just prefer to tell themself how great they are.

Maybe, but not all. I just know my shit, not everyone does.

[Ketho]

You need 1 pull to view all this traits via saved logs, but you can't view traits via ingame inspecting. Only way to view this traits ingame is when both players (RL and raider for ex.) have installed addon that can share this info before pull.

Addons don't have direct access to WoWCombatLog.txt which would contain the COMBATANT_INFO with Artifact Trait IDs
So no, there is no way to view these Artifact Traits ingame in the way you mentioned

You would need an external parser for that information, or upload it to sites like warcraftlogs.com first

The problem is WoWCombatLog.txt only gets updated every x amount of buffered combat events, and like you said you'd only have the time to check after the first boss fight was over



imo the most feasible solution would be an embedded library in one of the more popular addons like DBM / BigWigs to share artifact information

[Cynep]

Devs are very incompetent in this limitation. You need 1 pull to view all this traits via saved logs, but you can't view traits via ingame inspecting. Only way to view this traits ingame is when both players (RL and raider for ex.) have installed addon that can share this info before pull. Works for guilds, but not for pugs.

So, what to expect? Require ExRT from pugs because without it their artifact is non-inspectable? What if I just want to give some advice to a friend, will we need to form a group and be in the same zone for me to see his artifact traits?

[Maudib]

Humans are hardly ever trustworthy

...said the human as I gave him a sideways glance of mistrust.

[shirokitsune]

...
You would need an external parser for that information, or upload it to sites like warcraftlogs.com first

The problem is WoWCombatLog.txt only gets updated every x amount of buffered combat events, and like you said you'd only have the time to check after the first boss fight was over

imo the most feasible solution would be an embedded library in one of the more popular addons like DBM / BigWigs to share artifact information

This may likely be what happens, but people will probably also end up disabling it as extra bandwidth usage or because they are working on an alt and want to be able to pop into a heroic dungeon and not be votekicked because 'durr urr artifact still has plastic wrap, git gud nub'...

Honestly, IMHO, talking may be the best answer anyway. If you want to armoury them, great, go for it. But at a certain point the easiest method is going to be invite them in if they meet a broad ilevel criteria... If they keep up with your expected standards, great you keep em. If they don't, you boot them and move on. Just like the business world really, if you can't perform what they ask, your employer will release you back into the wild to job hunt some more.