Why can't the father choose not to pay the child support if he wants abortion?

[hydrium]

It would automatically remove all responsibility for children from males if this happened.

If women want the ability to choose if they are having the child they deserve the consequences of said ability, they need to free up the voluntary termination of parental rights.

[Tempguy]

If women want the ability to choose if they are having the child they deserve the consequences of said ability, they need to free up the voluntary termination of parental rights.

Will never happen.

at this point id call any law that states athat an underage victim of statutory rape being relieved of all parental obligations to be a win. If we can't even get that, good luck getting a grown man the right to be relived of said obligation.

[May90]

Oooh you can't understand it, again... The point is that you can't make designer rules to something, apply them to everyone and scream "equality".

Nope, as the man is responsible for the woman's actions too, you keep ignoring this... The females decision power directly influences the males life. Again, just because you apply a rule equally to everyone doesnt make the rules them selves equal in any way. And then the next bit is an outright lie, once the baby is born then the woman can still get rid of the baby without the fathers consent. The only time a woman gets this responsibility is when she chooses to have said responsibility, the male gets this responsibility when the female chooses it for him.

Dude, there is no equality in making this decision in practice for biological reasons. This is one of those few cases in which equal rules result in unequal practical consequences. It is much like lifeguard standards being equal for all, but strongly favoring men in practice, because men are physically averagely much stronger.

The man is only responsible for his actions, the woman for hers. When the man went for sex, he knew that impregnation could take place, and yet he still went for it - essentially giving consent to possible impregnation. Same goes for the woman. The man has no control over how the woman decides to handle it, for biological reasons and due to the principle of bodily autonomy. But the consequences of woman's decision, whatever it is, are absolutely equal, for both sides. Both sides are equally responsible for her decision.

The only way I can see your proposition working is if the father could opt out of parentage due to refusal of the woman to go through adoption they agreed on before - with the state providing child support. In theory, it would work. In practice though, I can see quite a few ways for people to commercialize and exploit it for their financial gain.

---

The woman can't get rid of the baby after childbirth without the father's consent legally in most countries, AFAIK. If she can somewhere, then it is a very unfair law, and you won't see me supporting anything like this.

[Deleted]

Dude, there is no equality in making this decision in practice for biological reasons. This is one of those few cases in which equal rules result in unequal practical consequences. It is much like lifeguard standards being equal for all, but strongly favoring men in practice, because men are physically averagely much stronger.

The man is only responsible for his actions, the woman for hers. When the man went for sex, he knew that impregnation could take place, and yet he still went for it - essentially giving consent to possible impregnation. Same goes for the woman. The man has no control over how the woman decides to handle it, for biological reasons and due to the principle of bodily autonomy. But the consequences of woman's decision, whatever it is, are absolutely equal, for both sides. Both sides are equally responsible for her decision.

The only way I can see your proposition working is if the father could opt out of parentage due to refusal of the woman to go through adoption they agreed on before - with the state providing child support. In theory, it would work. In practice though, I can see quite a few ways for people to commercialize and exploit it for their financial gain.

---

The woman can't get rid of the baby after childbirth without the father's consent legally in most countries, AFAIK. If she can somewhere, then it is a very unfair law, and you won't see me supporting anything like this.

Yea no, it is nothing like that. These rules are made explicitly to remove men completely from the process other then the sex part.

That whole next bit is just dishonest at best, they both had sex. If you want to have a standard then you will have to apply it equally, if having sex is the same as consenting to parenthood then abortions should not be a thing. So lets not pretend that having sex was the "choice" men had.
No one is claiming that men should be allowed to say what a woman does to her body, it is just that they should also not be responsible for that decision. The fact is, men do not have any say about their own reproductive rights, the only thing they are allowed to do is pick up the tab.

The way it should work is that the one that wants to have the baby should pay for it, if you can't, then it should go to foster care immediately. Anything else but this is just blaming men for having sex.

In pretty much the whole of western world a woman can get rid of the baby without any consent of the father in two ways.
1. Just give it up for adoption and refuse to inform the father or tell the adoption agency who the father is.
2. Child hatches are a thing in most of western culture.

[Fuze]

Maybe you should turn your sexual interests to men or use condoms and hope it doesn't break if u dn't want to pay for your sperms' misbehaviors

[Bonkbonk100]

Because equality doesn't work both ways.

[shadowmouse]

@Umchilli Stop with the "me so clever" garbage. This is the second time you've started this thread, allow me to quote the last time (your last post started):

OP here and holy shit you all took the bait so hard. By far the most commented thread, 80 pages in just over 24 hours.

This whole thread was an experiment because I posted something similar 2-3 years ago when I was last active on mmo-champ and I remember having heated but incredibly stupid and juvenile arguments and I can see the same autistic people are here still, I guess I should've known from the topics that were already present but w/e.

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...bortion/page79

[Martymark]

I'd be for "financial abortions".

[May90]

Yea no, it is nothing like that. These rules are made explicitly to remove men completely from the process other then the sex part.

That whole next bit is just dishonest at best, they both had sex. If you want to have a standard then you will have to apply it equally, if having sex is the same as consenting to parenthood then abortions should not be a thing. So lets not pretend that having sex was the "choice" men had.
No one is claiming that men should be allowed to say what a woman does to her body, it is just that they should also not be responsible for that decision. The fact is, men do not have any say about their own reproductive rights, the only thing they are allowed to do is pick up the tab.

The way it should work is that the one that wants to have the baby should pay for it, if you can't, then it should go to foster care immediately. Anything else but this is just blaming men for having sex.

In pretty much the whole of western world a woman can get rid of the baby without any consent of the father in two ways.
1. Just give it up for adoption and refuse to inform the father or tell the adoption agency who the father is.
2. Child hatches are a thing in most of western culture.

No, the only difference is in the decision on whether to give birth, which belongs only to the one giving birth, according to bodily autonomy. Everything else doesn't differ between genders at all. And even that difference still leads to equal responsibilities. Options:
a) The woman goes for abortion. No child is born, nothing happens.
b) The woman goes for childbirth. Both parents are equally responsible for the child.
As you can see, the man is just as much responsible for the woman's decision as she is.

Imagine how it would work if the man could opt out. A man enters a relationship with a woman for careless unprotected sex, and the woman obliges, because she wants kids. When pregnancy occurs, the man says, "Oh, you see, darling, I don't want kids. Either go for abortion, or I'm out". The woman is forced to choose between emotionally painful for her abortion, or raising the kid alone without any support. While the man walks out happy and free, looking for another woman to screw like that. I'm not saying many men will do that, but some do. I fail to see where equality in this is.

Instead, we have a better system, in which, agreeing on sex, you both essentially give consent to possible childbirth, saying, "If the result of this sex is childbirth, then I will act like a responsible parent and participate in raising kid, personally or financially". If the woman decides to go for abortion, then nothing has changed for either of you. If she decides to give childbirth, then you both contribute to raising the kid. All responsible and mature people are happy. Immature idiots who just want to have a little fun and don't care about the consequences - well, who cares about them anyway?

---

Your two examples are nonsensical, since they imply that the father isn't aware of having a child and can't affect these decisions in any way. If it is so, then the decision doesn't affect his life in any way.

[Deleted]

The problem is you guys want to have sex and have no consequences....well tough shit. Get over it thems the breaks.

So I take it you're anti-abortion

Better yet, get a vasectomy and make sure you are shooting blanks before you do anything.

Imagine telling women that if they don't want to get knocked up, they should just become infertile

--

Look, I do agree that biology has made men and women unequal in reproductive rights, and it's hard to argue with biological facts

What irks me is the inconsistency and sheer obnoxiousness of saying pretty hateful things towards men who want equal reproductive rights, while claiming women have less rights

[Laerrus]

I don't understand why this discussion keeps coming up...

If you don't wanna pay wrap up, it's simple

Better yet, get a vasectomy and make sure you are shooting blanks before you do anything.

[shadowmouse]

Pssst ... guys, this fellow has already admitted to posting pretty much the same thread, with the same title, as bait. Do not feed it.

[markos82]

Womp, the first line said everything that needed to be said; Drunk male & drunk female engage in drunk sex, the man is taking advantage of the woman ;D enjoy that feminist Kool-Aid friend.

(Also, you are pressing the "Men want to force women into abortions" key again, when barely anyone in this thread ever called for that. Blame it on the patriarchy and fight the powa!)

Ofc he is, male libido is much higher than a girls. I can do it anywhere and anytime, i dont care where i am and if someone will see me. Most girls are not like that.....

Have you even read the title of this topic?!? Read it and we can talk again....

[Vorkreist]

Because women need special protection against stupid decisions like keeping a baby knowing they can't raise it by themselves.

[Deleted]

No, the only difference is in the decision on whether to give birth, which belongs only to the one giving birth, according to bodily autonomy. Everything else doesn't differ between genders at all. And even that difference still leads to equal responsibilities. Options:
a) The woman goes for abortion. No child is born, nothing happens.
b) The woman goes for childbirth. Both parents are equally responsible for the child.
As you can see, the man is just as much responsible for the woman's decision as she is.

Imagine how it would work if the man could opt out. A man enters a relationship with a woman for careless unprotected sex, and the woman obliges, because she wants kids. When pregnancy occurs, the man says, "Oh, you see, darling, I don't want kids. Either go for abortion, or I'm out". The woman is forced to choose between emotionally painful for her abortion, or raising the kid alone without any support. While the man walks out happy and free, looking for another woman to screw like that. I'm not saying many men will do that, but some do. I fail to see where equality in this is.

Instead, we have a better system, in which, agreeing on sex, you both essentially give consent to possible childbirth, saying, "If the result of this sex is childbirth, then I will act like a responsible parent and participate in raising kid, personally or financially". If the woman decides to go for abortion, then nothing has changed for either of you. If she decides to give childbirth, then you both contribute to raising the kid. All responsible and mature people are happy. Immature idiots who just want to have a little fun and don't care about the consequences - well, who cares about them anyway?

---

Your two examples are nonsensical, since they imply that the father isn't aware of having a child and can't affect these decisions in any way. If it is so, then the decision doesn't affect his life in any way.

You mean like how this rule is made purely to only give rights to the one that gives birth. Again, the blue team isn't really happy with everyone being able to hit team blue in the face.

So according to you, because the man had sex he has to pay up, because the female wants to have children... Right, that is so equal...
If the female wants children she should find someone who wants children with her, and not just fuck some stranger to get to his seed/money.
With what i propose she is still not forced to do anything, its still totally her choice, its just that she won't be able to fuck over some poor guy that didn't want to have a child with her in the first place.

We have a worse system, when a male has sex he agrees to become a father, but this somehow doesn't apply to females because "reasons".

They are not nonsensical, fathers are only aware of their offspring when the female wants them to be. And if you think that having a child doesn't effect your life then i do not know what will. Its not like there aren't guys in this world that do want to become a parent.

As usual, all you bring into this is dishonesty and a really poor grasp on reality.

[The One Percent]

Because most of the groups that say they want equality are in reality fighting for more privileges while wanting to keep the ones they currently have.

[Granyala]

Always the whining.

You banged her, you impregnated her, you deal with the consequences.

BTW: whether an abortion is an option for the female or not is best discussed BEFORE getting all cuddly and intimate.

[Deleted]

Always the whining.

You banged her, you impregnated her, you deal with the consequences.

BTW: whether an abortion is an option for the female or not is best discussed BEFORE getting all cuddly and intimate.

I really did not know that there are situations where abortion isn't an option, just because someone doesn't want to have one doesn't meant hat the choice isn't there.

Oh, and then if this is your opinion then please go tell females the same and ban abortions.

[May90]

You mean like how this rule is made purely to only give rights to the one that gives birth. Again, the blue team isn't really happy with everyone being able to hit team blue in the face.

So according to you, because the man had sex he has to pay up, because the female wants to have children... Right, that is so equal...
If the female wants children she should find someone who wants children with her, and not just fuck some stranger to get to his seed/money.
With what i propose she is still not forced to do anything, its still totally her choice, its just that she won't be able to fuck over some poor guy that didn't want to have a child with her in the first place.

We have a worse system, when a male has sex he agrees to become a father, but this somehow doesn't apply to females because "reasons".

They are not nonsensical, fathers are only aware of their offspring when the female wants them to be. And if you think that having a child doesn't effect your life then i do not know what will. Its not like there aren't guys in this world that do want to become a parent.

As usual, all you bring into this is dishonesty and a really poor grasp on reality.

If the man has sex, he gives consent for having children. Same goes for the woman. Imagine if abortion didn't exist: your point would be completely moot. Abortion doesn't change anything, it only gives the woman an extra option. Giving an extra option doesn't take responsibility off either.

---

Current system:

Abortion: no one is responsible for the child.
Childbirth: both are responsible for the child.

Your system:

Abortion: no one is responsible for the child.
Childbirth: either both or the woman alone is responsible for the child, but never the man alone.

You don't see the problem, do you?

[Granyala]

I really did not know that there are situations where abortion isn't an option, just because someone doesn't want to have one doesn't meant hat the choice isn't there.

Oh, and then if this is your opinion then please go tell females the same and ban abortions.

You do realize that there are intense possible psychological consequences of an abortion, yes?
My cousin fathered a child, was against an abortion but the female went ahead anyway.
To this day he feels guilty and suffers from depression because a human life was lost.

So: yeah there are many possibilities why a female (or male) might not want to abort a pregnancy.
All I'm saying that these eventualities need to be spoken over BEFORE getting intimate.

I'm a man. An abortion would never be an option for me (unless the child were to be so disabled that forcing it to live would be torture instead of joy), even though I do not want children.
If it happens, it happens and I will take care of it in whatever form that may be.

Actions have consequences. Be aware of them before you choose to act.

PS: I think you misunderstood the term "being an option". The term includes the "does the partner want X" and is not solely restricted to X being technically possible or not.