Does the Forsaken really have a future?

[Magnagarde]

Even "curing" the Forsaken would mean that the Horde loses a race and that wouldn't go down well with the Forsaken fans. If Blizzard won't cure them, they surely won't destroy them.

I can imagine Blizzard having the idea of curing them at one point of time to create a mindblowing plot, but that goes down the drain due to the MMO genre and the whine that would come with it.

[Mehrunes]

Keyword retake.

In the end, they didn't even attempt to do it because an Alliance character influenced it not to happen. Ironically, it wouldn't be wrong if they did it either.

Keyword #2: Alliance.

Alliances are not entities that get land claims in general, even less so on the land of their members, let alone of former members. The Alliance has no capacity to retake Lordaeron and the moment Lordaeron withdrew from the Alliance it stopped being Alliance territory in any capacity whatsoever.

They did though. Undercity was taken back by the Horde because of both the Horde and Alliance forces disposing of the rebel Forsaken group led by Putress and Varimathras. Jaina convinced the Alliance not to take back Lordaeron in the name of the Alliance and therefore the Alliance forces did help take Undercity back for the Horde.

No matter which way you look at it, this is what happened.

And no matter which way you look at it, it happened in a way that runs contrary to what you tried to argue earlier when you brought the Battle for the Undercity in the first place. And Jaina didn't convince them. Varian declared the war and attacked Thrall and Sylvanas despite her pleas and she teleported him and his soldier away against their will.

[Nathreim]

Forsakens are done when last Valkyrie is used. IIRC Sylvanas trying to get new source of Valkyries in Stormhelm but Genn managed to fuck her up.

Because Valks are the only people capable of necromancy. Lets just ignore Helcular who was trained by Kel'thuzad and was powerful enough to become a Lich on his own. The forsaken have several necromancers outside of the valks Sylvanas just has them working other projects like how to raise worgen for example.

Forsaken and all undead are immortal so they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

[Mehrunes]

It was already taken by force, hence the highlighted retake.

Except the highlighted retake referred to Varian trying to "retake" it for the Alliance while what RedGamer was talking about was that they were assisting the Horde in them retaking it for the Forsaken.

As pointed out above, the Alliance in the end decided not to retake what was taken from them in the first place because one of the major Alliance characters decided it shouldn't be done. They chose not to retake anything, but only help instead.

Except that's not what happened. Jaina forcefully teleported them out after Varian declared war. Varian chose to "retake" everything but Alliance's goals were foiled from within.

[Magnagarde]

Keyword #2: Alliance.

Alliances are not entities that get land claims in general, even less so on the land of their members, let alone of former members. The Alliance has no capacity to retake Lordaeron and the moment Lordaeron withdrew from the Alliance it stopped being Alliance territory in any capacity whatsoever.

Your "Lordaeron's withdrawal" represents the following; the destruction at the hands of the Scourge, occupation by dreadlords, betrayal of the survivors of Lordaeron and occupation at the hands of freeminded former Scourge agents that destroyed the kingdom both when under the influence of the Lich King and with a free mind. Your word withdrawal is a politically correct way of describing being destroyed, betrayed and occupied.

It is human territory occupied by freewilled undead creations of the Lich King.

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Except that's not what happened. Jaina forcefully teleported them out after Varian declared war. Varian chose to "retake" everything but Alliance's goals were foiled from within.

The Alliance plans were foiled by... the Alliance.

Except the highlighted retake referred to Varian trying to "retake" it for the Alliance while what RedGamer was talking about was that they were assisting the Horde in them retaking it for the Forsaken.

Whichever way he meant to put it, it doesn't change the fact that it was taken through destruction, occupation and brute force.

[Maxilian]

It was already taken by force, hence the highlighted retake.

As pointed out above, the Alliance in the end decided not to retake what was taken from them in the first place because one of the major Alliance characters decided it shouldn't be done. They chose not to retake anything, but only help instead.

It was taken from them by the scourge, they will retake it cause they belkieve that's still alliance territory, while the Frosaken have a bigger claim to the land (the lived there, died there and got rezzed there) a

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Because Valks are the only people capable of necromancy. Lets just ignore Helcular who was trained by Kel'thuzad and was powerful enough to become a Lich on his own. The forsaken have several necromancers outside of the valks Sylvanas just has them working other projects like how to raise worgen for example.

Forsaken and all undead are immortal so they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

There's a different between getting Ghouls (like those created by the Ebon blade necromancers) than ressurecting people as undead with their own will

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Your "Lordaeron's withdrawal" represents the following; the destruction at the hands of the Scourge, occupation by dreadlords, betrayal of the survivors of Lordaeron and occupation at the hands of freeminded former Scourge agents that destroyed the kingdom both when under the influence of the Lich King and with a free mind. Your word withdrawal is a politically correct way of describing being destroyed, betrayed and occupied.

It is human territory occupied by freewilled undead creations of the Lich King.

And that's why the Alliance feel that the Forsaken have no place in Lordaeron and want it back (and that's the story of the Arathi BG) but the Forsaken obviously doesn't agree with them

[Mehrunes]

Your "Lordaeron's withdrawal" represents the following; the destruction at the hands of the Scourge, occupation by dreadlords, betrayal of the survivors of Lordaeron and occupation at the hands of freeminded former Scourge agents that destroyed the kingdom both when under the influence of the Lich King and with a free mind. Your word withdrawal is a politically correct way of describing being destroyed, betrayed and occupied.

Arthas withdrew the kingdom before it was destroyed, but do go on. Because you just emphasized that the kingdom was destroyed. I.e. no longer exists. So your crock of shit about occupation is a crock of shit even according to you. Calia Menethil, the only (potential) heir to Lordaeron confirms that it no longer exists too, so you even have human from that "human territory" telling you that you're wrong. You also failed to address the fact that alliances don't get land claims, period.

It is human territory occupied by freewilled undead creations of the Lich King.

It stopped being human territory long ago. It's not like the population has a claim to the land in a monarchy, which Menethil's Lordaeron was. And you can cry about Lordaeron being occupied all you want, but it doesn't make it so. Lordaeron was conquered and is now rightfully owned by the Forsaken.

The Alliance plans were foiled by... the Alliance.

By one member of the Alliance going against the will of her king. In case you missed it, the war continued afterwards.

Whichever way he meant to put it, it doesn't change the fact that it was taken through destruction, occupation and brute force.

All of which is irrelevant to the point they were trying to make and which you tried to defend (apparently without even knowing what it is that you're defending).

[Eothedk]

The forsaken do actually rot, just slowly, they physically age, but also mentally kind of. The longer the forsaken remain undead the higher the chance for them to become mindless undead. Death Knights do not have the same problem as they're kept "fresh" by a much more powerful spell which works continously, forsaken don't have that luxury.

Edit: Dark Rangers are also exempt from this rule as they're banshees inhabiting their old bodies (or in Nathanos' case, spectre inhabiting his old body), which is why a lot of them are in a better condition than the rest of the forsaken, the bodies still fall apart though, but the mind remains intact.

What about Forsaken Death Knights? :O

[Friendlyimmolation]

What about Forsaken Death Knights? :O

that is all old lore, both dk and forsaken dont rot. Both are immortal

[Kallisto]

By one member of the Alliance going against the will of her king. In case you missed it, the war continued afterwards.

Contrary to that stupid line in ICC, Varian never has been and never will be her king. Just like the Monarchs of Denmark will never be my Kings or Queens because I am not a citizen of Denmark. Just like Jaina isn't a citizen or subject of Stormwind.

[Mehrunes]

Contrary to that stupid line in ICC, Varian never has been and never will be her king. Just like the Monarchs of Denmark will never be my Kings or Queens because I am not a citizen of Denmark. Just like Jaina isn't a citizen or subject of Stormwind.

Yeah, I know. Still, despite Jaina's wishes, after Varian's declaration of war the Alliance followed suit so Jaina was an outlier here and there's really no way to twist her teleporting Varian out of Undercity as Alliance teaming up with the Horde to help them retake it from the rebels.

[Aquamonkey]

You say iot like the Alliance went to help the horde,

They did though. Undercity was taken back by the Horde because of both the Horde and Alliance forces disposing of the rebel Forsaken group led by Putress and Varimathras. Jaina convinced the Alliance not to take back Lordaeron in the name of the Alliance and therefore the Alliance forces did help take Undercity back for the Horde.

No matter which way you look at it, this is what happened.

Yep... Alliance totally went there to help the Horde...

Varian Wrynn: "They have lost the Undercity? Then the time to strike is now. We will deal with Putress ourselves and retake the Ruins of Lordaeron for the Alliance!"

And the part where Jaina "convinced" the Alliance to not take Lordaeron...

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!
The fight is joined.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: VARIAN, NO! STOP!

[Traveler Voltin]

kind of sucks jaina ported them.
i wanted to see thrall stomp Varian.

[Magnagarde]

Jaina porting people away has never been a good thing for the Alliance. They should ban her from casting teleport if they wish to ever achieve something or keep their notable characters alive.

[RedGamer030]

Mister. I know that you are an intelligent person. You realize that such a thing would never fly well.

Never said it would or would not, just said it is an option Blizzard could do - they have the power to do so.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Never said it would or would not, just said it is an option Blizzard could do - they have the power to do so.

Blizzard could also decide to give each human character a third arm

[Nathreim]

There's a different between getting Ghouls (like those created by the Ebon blade necromancers) than ressurecting people as undead with their own will

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Give me a break a Lich is one of the hardest things to create and we have a necromancer in the Forsaken is able to do it by himself. Helcular is so powerful Sylvanas gave him a mission to break the immunity of Worgen something Valks cant do.

Also Forsaken are not hard to create if you made a Forsaken before cata you were raised by the latent necromatic magic in the area. You literally woke up in your grave on your own.

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Yep... Alliance totally went there to help the Horde...

Varian Wrynn: "They have lost the Undercity? Then the time to strike is now. We will deal with Putress ourselves and retake the Ruins of Lordaeron for the Alliance!"

And the part where Jaina "convinced" the Alliance to not take Lordaeron...

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!
The fight is joined.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: VARIAN, NO! STOP!

Not to mention the goal of the Alliance invasion force in cata was not to save Gilneas it was to retake Lordaeron.

[ryudaraku]

I feel the need to point out.

The Alliance of Lordaeron and The Current alliance are pretty much two wholly different bodies. The First Alliance was in it's grave by the end of Warcraft 3, and Lordaeron was not "taken by force" the nation ceased to be when it's prince killed it's king and most of it's population, the only possible claimant to the throne had never come forwards to put her claim in.

[Magnagarde]

I feel the need to point out.

The Alliance of Lordaeron and The Current alliance are pretty much two wholly different bodies. The First Alliance was in it's grave by the end of Warcraft 3, and Lordaeron was not "taken by force" the nation ceased to be when it's prince killed it's king and most of it's population, the only possible claimant to the throne had never come forwards to put her claim in.

The land was taken from those that inhabited it. It is not only the crown that was lost. If the kingdom ceased to exist, it doesn't mean you have to kill and raise every single human that wanted to keep his home.

[ryudaraku]

The land was taken from those that inhabited it. It is not only the crown that was lost. If the kingdom ceased to exist, it doesn't mean you have to kill and raise every single human that wanted to keep his home.

And many the forsaken were also those people who had homes on that very same land.