1. #1681
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Unless a certain pure spec absolutely grabs into the shitbag dpswise, they still be superior to most hybrid dps.

    Warlocks / Hunters / Mages have a superior toolkit compared to any ranged Hybrid, that they very often are superior in terms of Dps is just the cherry on top.
    yep, i agree. after 10 years i never belive there will be a point where mages and locks not always be on top of every log. but if you choose the "wrong" pure dps spec this time, in Legion, you are hard assfucked. imagine WoD had worked like Legion, and you had played a surv hunter or a assasination rogue. and had to invest a lot to switch spec. that do really not sound good to me...

    personally, i for sure as hell will not play a pure in Legion. consider a ret paladin. his only dps spec have to be viable (not the best, but viable). so blizz will ever have a look at that spec. but look at the forgotten third pure specs. blizz pisses on them. they have always and will always. 1 spec of a pure is always ultra garbage.

    what i wanna say: if you take a hybrid, you are relatively save in terms of balancing. if you choose a pure and choose the wrong spec, you maybe end up brutally raped and fucked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    oh, and i just wanna add the following:

    blizz had ALWAYS a hard time to balance stuff accordingly. do you belive they become better this time with

    - additionally 36 traits trees with endless traits
    - relics
    - class legendaries
    - artifact cd
    - complete new talents, systems and mechanics
    - 2 new demon hunter specs and a new melee hunter spec
    - a LOT added spells and talents to distincts soecs from each other

    ?

    i would not count on their balancing abilities this time. so i see the whole pure problem above even more worse than ever before.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2016-07-10 at 11:51 PM.

  2. #1682
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    but if you choose the "wrong" pure dps spec this time, in Legion, you are hard assfucked.
    Probably, but i honestly doubt that that anyone who really cares about performance will choose the mystery box and go for the "most questionable" of all 3 specs.

    Once the Beta servers go down, you have a rough guess which one of the 3 pure specs will be the best.

    But to give you a point, i'm prepared for the tears of the first round of hotfixes after Legion hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    they have always and will always. 1 spec of a pure is always ultra garbage.
    Applies for maybe Rogues and especially Hunters, but not for Mages / Warlocks.

    All 3 specs of Mages / Warlocks were playable at least playable at one point in the recent past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    i would not count on their balancing abilities this time. so i see the whole pure problem above even more worse than ever before.
    Possibly.

    But i could imagine that they lack the balls to really nerf overpowered specs, because people who invested all their artifact power into this spec will be wrecked by that.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2016-07-11 at 12:01 AM.

  3. #1683
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    yep, i agree. after 10 years i never belive there will be a point where mages and locks not always be on top of every log. but if you choose the "wrong" pure dps spec this time, in Legion, you are hard assfucked. imagine WoD had worked like Legion, and you had played a surv hunter or a assasination rogue. and had to invest a lot to switch spec. that do really not sound good to me...

    personally, i for sure as hell will not play a pure in Legion. consider a ret paladin. his only dps spec have to be viable (not the best, but viable). so blizz will ever have a look at that spec. but look at the forgotten third pure specs. blizz pisses on them. they have always and will always. 1 spec of a pure is always ultra garbage.

    what i wanna say: if you take a hybrid, you are relatively save in terms of balancing. if you choose a pure and choose the wrong spec, you maybe end up brutally raped and fucked.
    .
    Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I think the new design bodes well for balance in regard to the Pure DPS specs as well as how Hybrid DPS will fare in comparison.

    For all the reasons you mentioned Blizzard knows they can't drop the ball on any spec. They can't pull a stunt like they did with Demo or Survival in Legion because of the time invested by the player in their Artifact. In WoD and prior iterations players could fall back on a different DPS spec if they were a pure. That won't be the case anymore.

    Likewise, with the removal of most of the Hybrid part of Hybrids as well as their own large investment in their Artifact they need to be on par with all the other DPS.

    There will always be outliers but my hope is Legion will see more balanced results in the end.

  4. #1684
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    Likewise, with the removal of most of the Hybrid part of Hybrids as well as their own large investment in their Artifact they need to be on par with all the other DPS.
    Well we get 4-5 casted shit heals as compensation for immunity/cheat death/... A class is only as good as it is compared to the others.
    Idc much about numbers atm, it's just that we're pretty garbage in terms of utility/support which was supposed a shaman niche even in the old warcraft. Check the official site > game guide > shaman and be amazed how outdated that info is, or how developers just don't have any idea what to do with shaman. They just stripped us from our defining spells (totems/buffs...) without any compensation except we do 5% less damage than a mage in stead of 30-40% in the best case.

    it's like in legion they wanted to give classes more class identity while they just completely destroyed shaman identity as support. enhance gets stormlash and elemental get SK to get some of the the old flavour of "buff class", but imo it just only gives the disadvantages without the advantages. Even grounding and earthbind are removed and the only totems we learn baseline are fire and earth elemental. At least we won't complainin about how HST is healing that random dude 40y away in stead of yourself while levelling...

    Anyway, it looks like I'll be playing resto, they really look awesome with their toolkit in pve. I'm not sure in general if ranged dps specs will be still most wanted in the future as blizz insists on adding more and more melee dps specs. Since there are more melee specs than ranged spec, you'd expect blizz to make them more favorable than they are now.
    Last edited by woopytywoop; 2016-07-11 at 12:38 AM.

  5. #1685
    Quote Originally Posted by woopytywoop View Post
    Well we get 4-5 casted shit heals as compensation for immunity/cheat death/... A class is only as good as it is compared to the others.
    Idc much about numbers atm, it's just that we're pretty garbage in terms of utility/support which was supposed a shaman niche even in the old warcraft. Check the official site > game guide > shaman and be amazed how outdated that info is, or how developers just don't have any idea what to do with shaman. They just stripped us from our defining spells (totems/buffs...) without any compensation except we do 5% less damage than a mage in stead of 30-40% in the best case.

    it's like in legion they wanted to give classes more class identity while they just completely destroyed shaman identity as support. enhance gets stormlash and elemental get SK to get some of the the old flavour of "buff class", but imo it just only gives the disadvantages without the advantages. Even grounding and earthbind are removed and the only totems we learn baseline are fire and earth elemental. At least we won't complainin about how HST is healing that random dude 40y away in stead of yourself while levelling...
    I think they finally realized they could never remove the "hybrid tax" without removing the hybrid. I think that sucks. I've always liked support type specs in RPG's and MMO's but Blizzard seems to have never figured out how to do it right. Other games have though which is odd.

    I would have liked to see Support type abilities like our old Totems or CD's added back as talents in rows that also had DPS abilities. That would allow Hybrids to "tax" themselves for more Utility at the expense of their damage.

  6. #1686
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    it depends imo. as someone said, blizz always in all xpacs give the last 5% more dmg most of the time to locks and especially mages. look at all logs of the last 10 years. but that wether says something about the fun of the class (this is purely subjective) nor if YOU can handle it.

    mages are not thaaaat easy. you must be able to stationary blink around, dont often move (rune could be horrible) and deal A LOT with movement problems, because you a) have to cast a lot b) you can be killed very fast c) you often have spells where you have to plan accordingly. consider an arcane mage setting his crystal at the wrong moment on the wrong position. hillarious dmg loss. every ele will out dps you. another example is the Legion rune. 50% (!!!) more dmg for 10 seconds, but stay around em. you have to "pool" and burst all out in that moment. so have to know the fight real good and plan accordingly. wasting that 10s bc of needed movement away from the rune, and you suck. a lot. thats not like pressing all your ele elementals cd / asc and go to town.

    what i wanna say is: mages need a good knowledge of the fight and a good planing to when do what where. some other casters are more forgivable. so, you not automatically outdps everybody. when a player could play a little bit easier ele on a higher niveau than a more complex mage that have more power, the ele can end with more dmg. as i said it depends. you should be able to also play the class on top. and often thats easier with an ele than with a mage. so dont wonder yourself when your mages performs more worse than your ele.

    but IF you can handle a mage on the same high niveau, most of the time mages always outperformed eles and most other classes. so, it depends on how well you could play a mage.

    and the fun of ele vs fun of mages is purely subjective. if you have fun with it and you can handle it, play mage. and same goes for ele. so, as always, it depends. its up to you.

    all around tuning wise i see the typically single target problem with eles. but the same goes for x classes. feral i.e. has literally NO aoe. but from a beta point of view i dont see the problems here. there are a lot of classes performing same or lower as ele. i would call ele aoe 85%, ST 35%, overall a 75-80% classs. so no real worries here.
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I handled mage 110%. It was just an awful experience. Between gaming the 4p in BRF and trinket/ring/crystal nonsense in HFC, I had very little fun in WoD with Mage. Frost in Highmaul was about the extent of enjoyment. We ended up killing Archimonde at about US ~150th and I immediately took a 3 month break. Damage isn't everything boys.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  7. #1687
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I handled mage 110%. It was just an awful experience. Between gaming the 4p in BRF and trinket/ring/crystal nonsense in HFC, I had very little fun in WoD with Mage. Frost in Highmaul was about the extent of enjoyment. We ended up killing Archimonde at about US ~150th and I immediately took a 3 month break. Damage isn't everything boys.
    Depends of your definition of fun.

    I'd rather play mage even if it has a terrible gameplay, 'cause I will be useful to my raid AND I should not be benched.

    For me progressing as a mage should be way more fun than sitting on the bench, even if ele is 10k times funnier to play.

  8. #1688
    We used an Ele shaman during ALL of progression. He was always competitive and generally had a priority spot. He was just as useful as any of our mages during progression, and we have 3 of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  9. #1689
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    We used an Ele shaman during ALL of progression. He was always competitive and generally had a priority spot. He was just as useful as any of our mages during progression, and we have 3 of them.

    Bad dps, bad target switching, bad burst, im struggling to find what your ele was useful for.

  10. #1690
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    We used an Ele shaman during ALL of progression. He was always competitive and generally had a priority spot. He was just as useful as any of our mages during progression, and we have 3 of them.
    Depends on your progression, his and your raids Ilvls. Shamans are capable but depends on where that bell curve is. Get a amazing shaman with great gear on a team with good players and good gear then he's competitive maybe even top dps. It just depends but something that's not debatable is the top tier raiding guilds logs. All the best with the best gear and shaman is low on that totem pole.

  11. #1691
    It was fine during progression. Zero complaints really. The mages are unstoppable now during farm, but no one cares about farm dps.

    Depends on your progression, his and your raids Ilvls. Shamans are capable but depends on where that bell curve is. Get a amazing shaman with great gear on a team with good players and good gear then he's competitive maybe even top dps. It just depends but something that's not debatable is the top tier raiding guilds logs. All the best with the best gear and shaman is low on that totem pole.
    There's nothing wrong with being middle of the pack though. Or even bottom. If your percentiles are good and you execute mechanics properly, that's all you really need to do to secure a raid spot.
    Last edited by Mcbenchpress; 2016-07-11 at 03:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  12. #1692
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    It was fine during progression. Zero complaints really. The mages are unstoppable now during farm, but no one cares about farm dps.



    There's nothing wrong with being middle of the pack though. Or even bottom. If your percentiles are good and you execute mechanics properly, that's all you really need to do to secure a raid spot.
    This is not accurate. Even if elemental average dps was anywhere near mages (it was not), elemental can't switch to priority targets and provide meaningful damage at all. This fact alone excluded elemental from any serious archimonde progression.

    If you saw his dps as 'fine' he is probably just a lot better than the rest of your team and I would wager you killed the boss relatively late. You're adding qualifiers like 'execute mechanics properly' implying the mage player won't? If both players are good at mechanics, and reasonable at their class; mage > elemental every time.

  13. #1693
    I did perfectly fine in my raid group, granted we are a 2 night group. We finished US 159 with a Arch kill in mid December. I was never sat for anything, I was in on every progression kill except Mannoroth due to my work schedule temporarily changing. They mostly catered to my strengths, I was told to not really worry about priority targets and just tunnel but I sucked it up and helped damage priority targets most of the time since Im not a prick. Fact is, on almost every fight except Iskar, Xhul and Tyrant I felt that I could contribute more if I was a different class even if I was executing the mechanics fine and I wasn't messing up. Gorefiend and Arch were particularly eye opening on how bad our target switching actually was.

    Back on track, I am hopeful for the next build. I am hoping they will revert the SP coefficient nerfs. I am assuming they will nerf PE but I am praying we will get some sort of compensation. We are one of the only specs that are not getting compensation buffs when other things are getting nerfed. It's been a pretty constant stream of nerfs since mid-Alpha so it would be a nice change of pace to see compensation. But I fully expect PE to get nerfed.

    Elemental is REALLY fun to play and the chunky sound of Lava Burst is awesome. I just can't justify playing something with glaring weaknesses. I understand niches but I do not want to be a 3 minute Mage and I expect that niche to be nerfed this build.

  14. #1694
    The Patient gambit998's Avatar
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    I remember during MOP i was always told to stay on the boss even if there was adds. Other than AOE ofc i would switch to CL spam, but the setup for Prio adds is a sodding mission and a half.

    During Mop and the beginning of WOD i was top of my guilds dps charts then everyone started getting better gear and suddenly even with my better gear my damage just stayed the same getting better gear did almost absolutely nothing to my DPS even with perfect procs and everything. .....we are/where not scaling properly. Our target switching is a joke it requires way to much set up.

    I am Sure it is a scaling issue and i think the biggest differene between MOP and WOD was two fold, Our increased cast times (Increased need for haste), our Mastery that was buggy as hell and often did nothing. (I have experienced this on more than one occasion during WOD). and Multistrike, dismal damage proc off of a dismal spells coeffiecents. (LB hits for 200 and procs a multistrike...if the LB hits like a noodle the multistrike will hit like a even wetter noodle.)

    Hopefully if they look at our mastery and tweak it it would be better, but the major concern (/Salute) is the spell coefficients if LB and Lvb hit like crap then no matter how much mastery we have it will proc a crap damage copy.

    Last note is a question: DO WE STILL HAVE THE 250 PERCENT CRIT DAMAGE MULTIPLIER OR HAVE WE BEEN NORMALIZED TO THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER CLASSES IN THIS REGARD?

  15. #1695
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gambit998 View Post
    Last note is a question: DO WE STILL HAVE THE 250 PERCENT CRIT DAMAGE MULTIPLIER OR HAVE WE BEEN NORMALIZED TO THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER CLASSES IN THIS REGARD?
    Still at 250%

  16. #1696
    The Patient gambit998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    I'm not sure why all the doom and gloom around here. I just got done playing a Mage for an entire expansion, and it was a awful experience. Ele was fun in WoD and it's still fun in Legion. 2/3 of the specs for Mage are still pretty bad in Legion.
    See 'Fun' is a very subjective term. I am use to and enjoyed the quick casts and burst of an Elemental shaman that was pre WOD. but with the cast times nerfed and the Burst almost non existant it felt very slow and sluggish to me. Even the damage felt horrible during WOD.

    I know you never probably played one before WOD but there is somthing lacking with the elemental shaman and tbh i honestly dont know what it is anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maddrox84 View Post
    Still at 250%
    So then am thinking that perhaps crit for the ascendance build might actually be benificial but of course if we go for crit based gear how will our Haste/mastery look? Balancing 3 secondaries is a sodding nightmare. I still prefer the quicker casts that haste can provide. then again i would have to go EM with Ascendance so hell i dont know anymore.....so much for choice in the situation.....iif i take ascendace i HAVE to take EM. sigh blizz /slap

    If they made EM to the Cata version i would be happy, haste and damage buff. Or even make it a haste and Crit buff for use in ascendance.

    Side note: I miss the Elemental Burst no mages use to beable to beat my burst pre WOD
    Last edited by gambit998; 2016-07-11 at 08:36 AM.

  17. #1697
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    a slight warning here: ppl dont realize yet (espec. the ones who dont play beta), how pures are handled in Legion.

    you take 1 spec and invest much (i mean MUCH) of your time and resources in that 1 spec of a pure dps. if thats the one blizz piss on (and for sure as hell blizz piss always on 1 or 2 specs on every pure, bc of "you have at least 1 viable spec") you could not simply respec in Legion and do like "oh, ok, so i take the nother one. what, aoe encounter ? ok i spec fire. cleave ? ok i spec frost."

    this will NOT happen in Legion.

    bc a lot of artifact resources are needed. on 13 traits onward and especially the paragon points you will never ever have competetive offspecs in Legion. Theres no problem to always hold your offspecs at around 80% of your mainspec, but 2 specs on 100% is nearly impossible. and switching the mainspec costs you a lot and you fall behind your raid members.

    consider this, before thinking about a pure. the "a pure is always better" will not work that easy in Legion.
    This all discussions about artifact power will be nill with the 2nd tier of the expansion, this is where the content will be actually tuned for a full out artifact. The first raid tier isnt, nor is PvP tuned with a full artifact in mind. With Artifact Knowledge level 25 you'll get over 850.000 artifact power from a single treasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I don't know much about Ele in general, but I will say this: It's the caster spec on Beta that I find the most fun, purely from a leveling and playing around stand point. It' visually the most stimulating of the casters, and I don't feel like I'm playing with a handicap whilst leveling.

    Granted, this means little to nothing about end game or especially progression play, but I do think it means that there is a solid foundation, and a lot of what's left is simply tuning.
    They already announced a rework for caster animations being next on their list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    I'm not sure why all the doom and gloom around here. I just got done playing a Mage for an entire expansion, and it was a awful experience. Ele was fun in WoD and it's still fun in Legion. 2/3 of the specs for Mage are still pretty bad in Legion.
    This is your experience. Where in reality 2 specs are perfectly viable for PvE and the 3rd one is a PvP spec. Every Raid has atleast 3 mages (if they know what they're doing) in their progression rosters and both of the PvE mage specs doing hilarious damage with the 3rd "PvP" one being close behind.

  18. #1698
    The Patient gambit998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    This is your experience. Where in reality 2 specs are perfectly viable for PvE and the 3rd one is a PvP spec. Every Raid has atleast 3 mages (if they know what they're doing) in their progression rosters and both of the PvE mage specs doing hilarious damage with the 3rd "PvP" one being close behind.
    Which specs are fine for PVE and which on is the PVP one? I know fire is currently insane but arcane and frost? (Sorry i havnt been really looking at the mages that hard.)

  19. #1699
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcbenchpress View Post
    We used an Ele shaman during ALL of progression. He was always competitive and generally had a priority spot. He was just as useful as any of our mages during progression, and we have 3 of them.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/character...ormrage/Rootzo

    This is the best progressed Elemental in mythic HFC. He later gave an interview, telling basically that he was carried and that it was unbearable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gambit998 View Post
    Which specs are fine for PVE and which on is the PVP one? I know fire is currently insane but arcane and frost? (Sorry i havnt been really looking at the mages that hard.)
    Arcane/Fire were used in BRF/HFC. Even Frost is used sometimes (during farm) and its not bad in PvE.
    Last edited by mmoc59b5827c7e; 2016-07-11 at 09:06 AM.

  20. #1700
    On PTR Elemental still has 250% crits.

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