Multiculturalism in Europe

[Kalis]

Do you honestly need a history lesson on how the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was carried out?

So the Ottoman Empire carried on civil rights that had existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago? Which civil rights were they exactly? Name them.

[Tumble]

Best part is, he's raging on about how they want everyone to change. While they pretty much have their own food stores, dinners and what not but that's also something those people don't like either since it is perceived as changing their society also, even though it does no harm.

I would hardly call that raging. I have no issues if they have their own restaurants, food stores or anything else. It's when they expect a company to change their products and/or procedures to fit in with their beliefs. And you sit there and say it does no harm for everyone to make changes to accommodate others way of life, while they aren't expected to give up any of their views in the fear of being labeled as a racist or a xenophobe.

[Bumbasta]

Immigrants integrate when society affords them the ability to, but it is almost universally the second and third generations that do the integration. If your society is constantly pushing those people away, they won't integrate. There is a great case study of this in the U.S., where the Irish were slowly permitted to integrate until they were very much part of the fabric of America, while the Chinese were targeted for exclusion, explicitly. The Chinese immigrants ended up not integrating as a result.

We already are at the third/fourth generation with muslims in Europe. Yet you see 4/5th generation children joining ISIS and become more radical than any of its (gand)parents was. The case study you mention is quite interesting though, that would be a nice argument against my multiculturalism = apartheid statement but I know too little about it to counter it. Only that the existence of Chinese communities are evident everywhere in the world, not just in the USA. There is a Chinatown in almost every big city (London, Amsterdam).

[Acidbaron]

It is not just evident in South Africa and Europe. Seggregation is world wide. A prime example is all the China towns you find around the world.

China towns are due to places i believe we created for them to integrate to, the case is now being made that it would have been better if we actually forced those populations to be spread across locals, forcing them to integrate, learning the language first and foremost.

My country is getting quite a bit of flack for a new rule the flemish region is trying to add and that is "can't speak dutch, can't get social housing". It's a harsh rule but i believe it's something that is needed since language is the basic thing needed to break the initial barrier.

[Bumbasta]

That's because the Chinese are a very common group that Western societies refuse to let integrate.

And what is different between Chinese and Indians, Muslims and other Asians?

[NineSpine]

So the Ottoman Empire carried on civil rights that had existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago? Which civil rights were they exactly? Name them.

The Ottomans ran a pretty hands-off system. They allowed regions to govern themselves almost entirely, outside of taxation. That was the key to their overall success. When Britain and France decided to carve up the region, they appointed monarchies and dictatorships to the countries, so that those countries would be steered in the interests of Britain and France. It's a question of respect for sovereignty and self-governance, those are the rights we are primarily talking about.

You are aware the U.S. overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed a repressive, incompetent monarchy, right?

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And what is different between Chinese and Indians, Muslims and other Asians?

I love how much you just summed up the profound ignorance of your argument, by placing national identities and Islam in the same category.

[Bumbasta]

I love how much you just summed up the profound ignorance of your argument, by placing national identities and Islam in the same category.

I was just naming some known minorities, i could've also classified by race, region whatever. It still doesn't answer my question. Wat's the difference? I don't see anything to back your argument that Chinese were specifically tough to integrate compared to other people.

[Acidbaron]

I would hardly call that raging. I have no issues if they have their own restaurants, food stores or anything else. It's when they expect a company to change their products and/or procedures to fit in with their beliefs. And you sit there and say it does no harm for everyone to make changes to accommodate others way of life, while they aren't expected to give up any of their views in the fear of being labeled as a racist or a xenophobe.

Does that really happen though? I have grown up with a variety of cultures all my life, to be fair that region was rather diverse i went to school with them have them as friends. Generally when we went to get something to eat they would buy something with Chicken meat instead, we rarely to never exclusively went to places that were considered halal.

This protest and demanding is something i never personally experienced, perhaps among the more fundamentalist population i can see this happening but those i know few really pay attention to it that carefully, it's mostly pressure from parents if it happened and their kids even care less about it. I am also noticing that things list fasting are being taken a whole lot less serious compared to 10 years ago among those same people now that they are adults and are working very few employers tolerate them walking around like a zombie for a month.

Traditions fade and so will theirs. That's how culture works some parts lost some parts gained.

[Kalis]

The Ottomans ran a pretty hands-off system. They allowed regions to govern themselves almost entirely, outside of taxation. That was the key to their overall success. When Britain and France decided to carve up the region, they appointed monarchies and dictatorships to the countries, so that those countries would be steered in the interests of Britain and France. It's a question of respect for sovereignty and self-governance, those are the rights we are primarily talking about.

You are aware the U.S. overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and installed a repressive, incompetent monarchy, right?

No they are not the rights we are talking about, you just made that up.

Themius: "It was a middle eastern country that had civil rights thousands of years ago."

Me: "We do not live thousands of years ago, so how is this relevant? The Middle East was once the flower of civilisation, it has long since stomped that flower into the dirt."

Themius: "What you mean us that the west stomped it out."

Those are the rights we are talking about.

[NineSpine]

We already are at the third/fourth generation with muslims in Europe. Yet you see 4/5th generation children joining ISIS and become more radical than any of its (gand)parents was. The case study you mention is quite interesting though, that would be a nice argument against my multiculturalism = apartheid statement but I know too little about it to counter it. Only that the existence of Chinese communities are evident everywhere in the world, not just in the USA. There is a Chinatown in almost every big city (London, Amsterdam).

When the Irish and Italians came to America, they didn't speak English and were hated. Over the course of a few decades, they integrated. The Chinese were always viewed as subhuman and never given that same opportunity. The same is the issue in all of the West.

[Acidbaron]

Do you honestly need a history lesson on how the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire was carried out?

He's going to openly dismiss any negative involvement of the west, more specifically the UK so honestly do not bother and just let him rant on. World strange people are best left in their own little corner of the world.

edit: lol, was too late.

[Tumble]

So if food is halal, how does that effect you?

If they take a restaurant that wan't halal, and harass them enough until they become halal that is a problem. It's also how I will never be a vegan, I am however not opposed to their food. I would gladly eat at a vegan restaurant on occasion, as I sometimes visit the local kebab shop which happens to be halal. Why can't they just leave places that aren't halal certified alone, and have their own places. Sadly restaurants (especially here is Austrlaia) have been forced to go halal in areas where immigrants, while still a minority, have cried enough that places like KFC have gone halal.

[Bumbasta]

When the Irish and Italians came to America, they didn't speak English and were hated. Over the course of a few decades, they integrated. The Chinese were always viewed as subhuman and never given that same opportunity. The same is the issue in all of the West.

I just don't understand the difference between Chinese and any other asian community then. Why would the view on Chinese be any different than on koreans, japanese, vietnamese, indians, indonesians?

[NineSpine]

No they are not the rights we are talking about, you just made that up.

Themius: "It was a middle eastern country that had civil rights thousands of years ago."

Me: "We do not live thousands of years ago, so how is this relevant? The Middle East was once the flower of civilisation, it has long since stomped that flower into the dirt."

Themius: "What you mean us that the west stomped it out."

Those are the rights we are talking about.

This may come to you as a crazy shocker, but I'm not Themius and I make my own points and have my own opinions. I know, crazy!

Muhammad established the Charter of Medina, which explicitly granted rights, including religious liberty to non-Muslims. It even said that non-Muslims could not be drafted for any religious war.

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I just don't understand the difference between Chinese and any other asian community then. Why would the view on Chinese be any different than on koreans, japanese, vietnamese, indians, indonesians?

All of those groups have trouble integrating in western societies.

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If they take a restaurant that wan't halal, and harass them enough until they become halal that is a problem. It's also how I will never be a vegan, I am however not opposed to their food. I would gladly eat at a vegan restaurant on occasion, as I sometimes visit the local kebab shop which happens to be halal. Why can't they just leave places that aren't halal certified alone, and have their own places. Sadly restaurants (especially here is Austrlaia) have been forced to go halal in areas where immigrants, while still a minority, have cried enough that places like KFC have gone halal.

If customers want a service or product from a business, why shouldn't they let that business know? You seem exceptionally butthurt about this for no reason, considering that food being halal effects you in no way.

[Kalis]

He's going to openly dismiss any negative involvement of the west, more specifically the UK so honestly do not bother and just let him rant on. World strange people are best left in their own little corner of the world.

edit: lol, was too late.

Or I am going to point out what the conversation was about, not what you tried to make it about. You literally disowned the argument you were arguing in favour of as impossible, that would have been humiliating for you if you had even understood what you were arguing for, but you could not grasp the concept.

[NineSpine]

Or I am going to point out what the conversation was about, not what you tried to make it about. You literally disowned the argument you were arguing in favour of as impossible, that would have been humiliating for you if you had even understood what you were arguing for, but you could not grasp the concept.

Simple question: Is the west responsible at all for the situation in the Middle East?

[Kalis]

This may come to you as a crazy shocker, but I'm not Themius and I make my own points and have my own opinions. I know, crazy!

Except if you are arguing against my point, then you need to prove the claim made by Themius, otherwise you are arguing against something I have not said.

[Deleted]

multiculturalism = genocide of white people

Why don't you liberal shitheads complain about not enough multiculturalism in Asia, Africa, South America etc.? Why is it a "must have" only in traditionally "white" countries? Why don't we send millions of white people in Congo, Uganda, Saud-Arabia, Egypt, Beijing, Shanghai etc?

Why is it our responsibility to take in all this black, brown and yellow mass just because they fuck like rabbits and all of them have 10 children?
Why do you call parallel societies multiculturalism? Majority of these people don't want and never will integrate. Look at England and the 100 illegal sharia court ran by muslims instead of using the UK law system. Look at their "elected" imams and how they run and govern the ghettos.

And the most important question is why do you want multiculturalism? If you are interested in their culture, traditions, heritage then go to their country instead of bringing it here! That's the normal, that's how things work, its called tourism! And if multiculturalism means for you that you can eat an italian pizza with pineapple, chinese duck, arab kebab in a European country, then a you are a fucking retard, because it only requires capitalism, if there is enough demand there will be supply.

Somebody piss in your cereal?

[Bumbasta]

All of those groups have trouble integrating in western societies.

Then how is this relevant to my apartheid argument? That the irish did integrate? Wow, big deal. The Dutch, Germans, French and other Europeans integrated together in apartheid south africa as well. It's because the culture is largely the same, not because they were given a better chance to integrate. The whole multiculti thing is regarding complete different cultures such as the muslim culture.

[Acidbaron]

If they take a restaurant that wan't halal, and harass them enough until they become halal that is a problem. It's also how I will never be a vegan, I am however not opposed to their food. I would gladly eat at a vegan restaurant on occasion, as I sometimes visit the local kebab shop which happens to be halal. Why can't they just leave places that aren't halal certified alone, and have their own places. Sadly restaurants (especially here is Austrlaia) have been forced to go halal in areas where immigrants, while still a minority, have cried enough that places like KFC have gone halal.

While i can understand the frustration of that, if that is really the case halal meat is "cleaner" if all guidelines are followed, no pork parts, alcohol, a vegetarian diet. I honestly doubt that KFC did all that, it's going to be simply a marketing stunt.

Can't really compare veganism to a religion though.