Players with PVP honor talents are smashing players without PVP honor talents

[Nights]

No its not awkward, its not bad or w/e u call it, it is how it should be. If one guy spend few days a week few hours on bg he should be weaker in pve then dude spending this time in raids, and other way around aswell.

[wing5wong]

No its not awkward, its not bad or w/e u call it, it is how it should be. If one guy spend few days a week few hours on bg he should be weaker in pve then dude spending this time in raids, and other way around aswell.

Err maybe you misunderstand - its not about raids and pvp?
This affects players that spend the majority of their gametime in an assortment of PVP options - random BGS, (high)rated BGs and arena.
For casual players the effect is minimal. For groups where specific talent setups are required, prestige becomes no-access content.
Anyone doing the high rated content can not spend downtime progressing prestige in non-rated bgs.

Its not the end of the world but it surely can be improved for players that only participate in the pvp side of the game, but have one aspect locked off from them at any particular point in time.

[Deleted]

PVP talents should not be an unlock... all of them should be available from the get go.

[StraiyEU]

there must be some progression in a mmorpg... if u only want to pvp u are wrong in this game. thats it... i like how the pvp talents are and the progression behind it... atleast u'll spend some time doing something not just sitting in your garrsion or whatever all day long and wait for ur friends/mates to play arena with..

[effs]

Im not against the progression element - i agree its great.
Just with how it interacts with rated play is slightly awkward. Progression in this case becomes a restriction.

The same can be said with tier sets, legendary ring (which is only kind of mandatory for the second half of HFC and mythic really) and the class trinkets. If you're not getting any of them because of unlucky streaks, you're being heavily restricted. ^^

[Sicarius87]

It's time consuming.
Imagine If you want to do mythic raids and have all your abilities. you need to do 500 quests. Now you do heroic raid. Now you need to do 500 quests before you can do mythic will all your abilities.

I have the time to do it. Many don't.
Why does one aspect of the game directly stop you from participating at your full potential? It doesn't happen in any other aspect

Everyone has always complained that PvP players do the same things season in/season out, expansion after expansion. Then when they bring in new fresh ideas, people bitch about it. What exactly does the pvp community want? (outside the glaring cheating issue to be stopped)

[wing5wong]

The same can be said with tier sets, legendary ring (which is only kind of mandatory for the second half of HFC and mythic really) and the class trinkets. If you're not getting any of them because of unlucky streaks, you're being heavily restricted. ^^

Sure - for the first level through honour.
But you don't delete your trinkets and tier sets every other week.

[wing5wong]

Everyone has always complained that PvP players do the same things season in/season out, expansion after expansion. Then when they bring in new fresh ideas, people bitch about it. What exactly does the pvp community want? (outside the glaring cheating issue to be stopped)

The option to do more than one style of pvp at a time.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the prestige system.
But after all the adjustments to ensure fights are even within a bracket, the lack of talent options completely swings the favour into the team that has all their options available.

[coprax]

So how long does it take to unlock all talents? Just to get it into perspective, for me as a pve guy, with maybe one random bg win per day. Just curious....

[wing5wong]

depends how many you win/lose obviosuly, but between 1-2 weeks is probably a godo number to work around.
with 1 bg/day as your only source of honour, probably quite a bit longer

[nodq]

Oh geez I can't just queue up and be on the same level as the player that has put 100x more time into PvPing than I have? HOW HORRIFYING

Could you imagine if someone said this, but for PvE instead? "Why can't I mythic raid with dungeon blues? Is this the future of WoW PvE!?! Why have such a disparity for players to overcome if the goal is to have more players experience more content?"

Honor talents don't even take long to get anyways.

I am playing BGs since they were introduced in vanilla. I have 1mill. HKs. I have put in more time than most other players, why i am not godmode unbeatable? Is this the future of PvP?

[Deleted]

Oh geez I can't just queue up and be on the same level as the player that has put 100x more time into PvPing than I have? HOW HORRIFYING

Could you imagine if someone said this, but for PvE instead? "Why can't I mythic raid with dungeon blues? Is this the future of WoW PvE!?! Why have such a disparity for players to overcome if the goal is to have more players experience more content?"

Honor talents don't even take long to get anyways.

Why do people always say regarding PvP issues, if this happened in PvE......? You cant compare the 2, what works in one doesnt work in another simple. PvE needs gear advancement, bosses get stronger you counter that by getting better gear. PvP is supposed to be competitive, players dont get exponetially stronger, they dont hit alot harder etc etc theres NO reason for gear progression in PvP outside being a carrot on a stick.
But apparantly as much PvP player rabbit on about how glorious and fun the no scripted nature of PvP is thats all thrown out the window when someone suggest everyone in organised PvP environments (Arena, BGs) gets 100% normalised gear, everything unocked, and everyone is on a level playing field, just like how competitions are supposed to be its met with outcry how its a stupid idea cos how am I supposed to stroke my epeen if I cant stomp new players regardless of my skill if I dont have a gear disaprity which is the same issue now except replace gear with honor talents.

They should have just gone back to the old vanilla grind with unlocks at certain ranks and have that as your reward grind, casual PvPers can work at it and it doesnt hinder the competitive players who can also work on it without compromising their rating by losing what for alot of classes are core PvP abilities buried in the tree. The whole prestige thing to me seems like a stupid attempt at trying to entice the CoD generation of gamers with the whole "look look we have prestige too just like CoD come play it."
Gear should still drop as it does in Legion I think its a good step, it giving you gear that competes with its PvE counterpart, but it actually giving you more power in PvP is stupid though, imagine if they allowed olypians to bring thier own gear after x years of training and didnt have a standard.... you'd have veterans with frigging wire guided arrows in the archery, rocket boots for the long jump vs new guys with standard gear, it removes the whle point of the competition when people are given an unfair advantage.

PvP is never gonna be "fixed" in WoW untill people stop giving a damn about gear in the rated content or ways to get that advantage over newbies and accept that whether you have played 10 years or 5min is irrelevant, if someone is just better that you then are going to beat you and the only way to counter that should be get better.

[Deleted]

Is this a surprise to you? This guy has been butchering WoW PvP for the past four, almost five years and people are just now realizing it... This guy has no business working on WoW considering he worked on Transformers: Fall of Cybertron, Homefront, and Frontlines: Fuel of War before coming to Blizzard. I mean seriously, what were they thinking putting this clown in charge????

Source: http://wow.gamepedia.com/Brian_Holinka

What have you worked on then? Do you have better credentials? How about you apply to Blizzard then?

[Alydael]

I've yet to get an answer to the following question:

Why are PvPers the only ones who have to have a notable detriment to gain rewards?

It has to pve players every new tier. Each new tier all the gear you worked hard for and grinded out for many hours suddenly becomes "old hat." Now you have to do it all over again. It is actually called the "gear treadmill." Now, with prestige, when you reset your level- you are getting back on the "honor talent treadmill." Blizz likes treadmills, they are into fitness.

I think it is a better system then the gear treadmill they used to have in pvp. That felt really artificial. Now you even have a choice (which pve players do not). Do not gain prestige ranks. The rewards are cosmetic anyway. Just keep your honor talents. Where is the fun in that though?

[rda]

What have you worked on then? Do you have better credentials? How about you apply to Blizzard then?

Sometimes it looks like a brick would do a better job than Holinka. Seriously, the default of "do no changes" is in many cases better than what they are doing. Not kidding, big real-life example: PVP gearing, their changes are making it worse instead of better.

[Deleted]

Stop crying farming lvl 50 talents doesn't take long, you can easily do it in a few days.

[Jademist]

On the PTR. This is the future of WoW PVP?!

Good job Holinka.

Seriously...why introduce such disparity for players to overcome if the goal is to increase PVP participation? Yes, he said that players will start in a separate bracket that have no honor talents, but what is the cutoff point?

And why would a PVE player want to do PVP if they have to grind out honor talents?

What is your suggested alternative then? We have to reward PVP-focused players something for the time and effort they put into PVP. I get frustrated at PVP now because unless you have a lot of PVP gear you do subpar damage and get owned easily by people who have full conquest gear. But does that mean it's unfair? No it's not.

And you're playing on the PTR...the game isn't going to be balanced out at level 100 but at level 110. Yeesh.

[Deleted]

Please don't lawyer up on people trying to defend the stupid decisions of Holinka. The guy has put way too many nails in the coffin of wow pvp and he is still trusted to deliver because obviously there is noone else who wants such a shitty job or worse they don't intend to pay for someone better than holinka.

However, pvp is about sensible decisions. Stripping players of all their abilities so they can "prestige" is STUPID. Playing with 2 spells until you get back to 22 spells is STUPID. Bad gameplay. Makes bad bad players. Lets the bad players stay bad and justify it with "Prestiging". So all in all you have in the end is blizzard looking after their own again:

The bads can prestige all they want with 2 button specs because hey dude i do it for the prestige lol
The good players will finish up their spells and go to their arenas RBGs
The casual playerbase will still suffer in BGs riddled with bots and bads.

So what exactly did Holinka change? (apart from his paygrade I guess surely he got paid a small fortune for his new invention).

It doesn't matter. Criticizing is ok but arguments should be valid. Just because he worked on X or Z shouldn't matter in the long run because that is still many more projects than your average mmo-c poster. Instead focus on why his decisions are bad. They aren't bad because he worked on transformers. I'm not defending him. I didn't like a lot of stuff but lets all keep arguments valid and exactly point why X is bad idea instead of pointing fingers towards his previous games.

Sometimes it looks like a brick would do a better job than Holinka. Seriously, the default of "do no changes" is in many cases better than what they are doing. Not kidding, big real-life example: PVP gearing, their changes are making it worse instead of better.

Yes it does look like that sometimes but there are better, more valid arguments to back it up than listing games he's worked on and saying it's because of that.

[wing5wong]

It has to pve players every new tier. Each new tier all the gear you worked hard for and grinded out for many hours suddenly becomes "old hat." Now you have to do it all over again. It is actually called the "gear treadmill." Now, with prestige, when you reset your level- you are getting back on the "honor talent treadmill." Blizz likes treadmills, they are into fitness.

I think it is a better system then the gear treadmill they used to have in pvp. That felt really artificial. Now you even have a choice (which pve players do not). Do not gain prestige ranks. The rewards are cosmetic anyway. Just keep your honor talents. Where is the fun in that though?

Almost the same... not quite. Your gear remains each tier. it is not suddenyl lost and you need to go back and do heroics for a week or two to gear up again.
While gearing up again, you can not contribute your full potential to a raid, and you are a detriment to their success.

Is it a cool system, sure. better than just buying gear for a few weeks and then being done. but i feel it interferes a bit much with rated play in its current 'full reset' state.
You simply can not play high level rated content if you wish to pursue prestige. (ok maybe if your required talents are in 1-10, but thats not the case in general)

Choosing to NOT do content is not a good choice, its also not quite that simple. You are choosing to NOT do content because it will impact another choice. You miss out by choosing. Something along the lines of if you did a mythic raid this week, you cant do a mythic+ dungeon and vice versa.
Exclusive gameplay modes are nice for some (prestige suits casual BGers the most, nothing wrong with it being a favourable choice), but is exclusion somehting that they want to foster within the game?

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Stop crying farming lvl 50 talents doesn't take long, you can easily do it in a few days.

A few days where you cant play another type of rated pvp.
Then a few days more.
Then a few more days.

Ok now you can do rated.

[Alydael]

Almost the same... not quite. Your gear remains each tier. it is not suddenyl lost and you need to go back and do heroics for a week or two to gear up again.
While gearing up again, you can not contribute your full potential to a raid, and you are a detriment to their success.

Is it a cool system, sure. better than just buying gear for a few weeks and then being done. but i feel it interferes a bit much with rated play in its current 'full reset' state.
You simply can not play high level rated content if you wish to pursue prestige. (ok maybe if your required talents are in 1-10, but thats not the case in general)

Choosing to NOT do content is not a good choice, its also not quite that simple. You are choosing to NOT do content because it will impact another choice. You miss out by choosing. Something along the lines of if you did a mythic raid this week, you cant do a mythic+ dungeon and vice versa.
Exclusive gameplay modes are nice for some (prestige suits casual BGers the most, nothing wrong with it being a favourable choice), but is exclusion somehting that they want to foster within the game?

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A few days where you cant play another type of rated pvp.
Then a few days more.
Then a few more days.

Ok now you can do rated.

I don't have a problem with the prestige stuff because it is all cosmetic. I can't imagine that if you are working hard towards something in rated pvp that you would just reset your honor by taking a prestige level. I look at it as something else to do when you have some free time or taking a break from pursuing your rated pvp goals.