No capaiblity to determine how a spec will be played until we max our artifacts.

[SirBeef]

I don't really care which spec is the best so long as I'm competitive (with in 1-3%). I just want to find a spec that I actually ENJOY playing again, and every time they add something like this that impacts end-game how the class is played, it means theres a chance that the playstyle changes in a way that I don't find enjoyable any longer. Set bonuses did the same thing, but set bonuses changed every tier. Artifact powers will stay the entire expansion presumably, so once I have it I'm stuck with it, theres no "waiting until next tier" to hope for a rotation/playstyle that I enjoy to return.

The bolded part is what your only concern should be. Test them on the PTR if not in the beta. The rotations are essentially the same. Look up what Artifact gives what talent and imagine adding that one in. Really, I've tested all the classes on Beta and PTR, they play essentially the same with or without the artifact. It will take 2-3 months to max out one artifact, at max artifact knowledge it will take weeks. It will not take long to catch up. Just make a decision.

I already decided to play DH over Paladin as my main. I will DPS and off tank instead of main tanking exclusively. Will DHs be top DPSers and good tanks? I don't know and I don't care. I find DHs fun. It doesn't matter if they are good or not. We will still go into Mythics and clear them with a group of 20 people playing what they want to play.

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every artifact starts with adding a new ability.

Most do, Frost DK, BM, and Holy Priest do not.

[Deleted]

Everything outside of that can refine things for you a bit, but it's not going to change how you play all that much any more than the Draenor leveling perks did.

I am sorry, but i have played all the classes (DPS) in draenor, and while for some of them perks were meh, for others they were gamechanging, for example balance druid instant starsurge, made leveling totally different before and after having that perk.
I can think of a lot of perks i was anxious to get with some classes, but that one from the balance druid was a very big difference, and it was RNG, so you could get it at level 92 or 98.
So some perks were gamechanging in draenor, i dunno if that is the case in Legion, but if it is, then the OP is right.

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Will DHs be top DPSers and good tanks? I don't know and I don't care

Yep i am on the same boat here; i have already decided to leave my shadow priest behind and i am gonna main a WW monk, because i love the mobility the class has, i am done with the min maxing thing, for all the good it does to you, when sooner or later you are gonna team with someone with the most OP class and doing the lowest DPS of the whole group.

[Deleted]

This...is exactly the problem I'm having. I will have no idea how fun the spec is until I'm playing it as its MEANT to be played (with max artifact power). Its very possible for a spec to feel different/worse when you unlock those traits.

The first 12 orso artifact points are really cheap, i wouldn't be surprised if you could get 2 out of 3 of the major artifact traits by the time/shortly after you reach 110. so unless you have 3 truly unique major traits (my class has 1 shitty one for example), that should give you a pretty good idea of how it's gonna play without more effort then in previous expansions.

[Fistfury]

I've been struggling for the past few months trying to decide which class I'm going to take as my main in Legion, and I've come to realize that this is more important in Legion than in any other expansion ever. Now if we reroll from one class to another, we are not only behind in spec and levels, but also in artifact power, which is going to be a huge deal.

Artifact traits are incredibly powerful, will take a while to unlock, and can easily change how a class or spec is played once obtained. Imagine you play a class that you're enjoying only to max out your artifact traits and realize that now its nothing like what it initially was. You have no capability before then to determine how the spec is going to feel at max power level.

With out the capability to thoroughly test how a class or spec feels with a maxed out artifact, its going to cause a lot of issues for people who get unlucky and end up not liking, or even hating, how it plays out. I've always been an altoholic, but this honestly scares me more than any other expansion. I'm not even sure that I'll be able to bother trying to raise up another artifact if the first one doesn't end up being enjoyable. It could easily mean that I quit playing the expansion months before I normally would. Time and time again we have seen that these sorts of items that take so much time to unlock only screw over people who want a change of pace. The legendary rings and cloaks are two recent examples of this, and yet we're once again going down this path.

Catch up mechanics are meaningless if they don't actually CATCH YOU UP. Being one or two stages behind everyone else is NOT being "caught up".

I'm not going to beat a dead horse about what this means for spec swapping, as thats already been hit on time and time again already.

My main concern is, how am I supposed to get any idea how my chosen spec is going to play at late game? Am I really expected to invest months into a character only then to come to the conclusion that it ends up being horrible? (I'm looking at you, retribution spec).

Perhaps they're expecting it to increase "replayability" and maintain subscribers if I have to go through all of this for my alts, but that isn't true at all, I'm just going to end up losing interest faster.

With all due respect - I don't know what level of player you are - but I believe this type of mindset really only has value for the top 1%, perhaps. My advice would be to play what you enjoy - everything going in cycles with balance - and I guarantee things are going to get buffed and nerfed many times during the first month or so of launch The top guilds are always going to class stack, do split runs, and do whatever it takes to overcome gear disadvantage in their world first race. For the rest of us (those who won't start stepping into mythic raiding until a few weeks after it opens most likely, if not longer) I don't think it will matter so much.

[Unir]

I've been struggling for the past few months trying to decide which class I'm going to take as my main in Legion, and I've come to realize that this is more important in Legion than in any other expansion ever. Now if we reroll from one class to another, we are not only behind in spec and levels, but also in artifact power, which is going to be a huge deal.

Artifact traits are incredibly powerful, will take a while to unlock, and can easily change how a class or spec is played once obtained. Imagine you play a class that you're enjoying only to max out your artifact traits and realize that now its nothing like what it initially was. You have no capability before then to determine how the spec is going to feel at max power level.

With out the capability to thoroughly test how a class or spec feels with a maxed out artifact, its going to cause a lot of issues for people who get unlucky and end up not liking, or even hating, how it plays out. I've always been an altoholic, but this honestly scares me more than any other expansion. I'm not even sure that I'll be able to bother trying to raise up another artifact if the first one doesn't end up being enjoyable. It could easily mean that I quit playing the expansion months before I normally would. Time and time again we have seen that these sorts of items that take so much time to unlock only screw over people who want a change of pace. The legendary rings and cloaks are two recent examples of this, and yet we're once again going down this path.

Catch up mechanics are meaningless if they don't actually CATCH YOU UP. Being one or two stages behind everyone else is NOT being "caught up".

I'm not going to beat a dead horse about what this means for spec swapping, as thats already been hit on time and time again already.

My main concern is, how am I supposed to get any idea how my chosen spec is going to play at late game? Am I really expected to invest months into a character only then to come to the conclusion that it ends up being horrible? (I'm looking at you, retribution spec).

Perhaps they're expecting it to increase "replayability" and maintain subscribers if I have to go through all of this for my alts, but that isn't true at all, I'm just going to end up losing interest faster.

If you're in beta, you can make a character on the pvp server and it comes with a maxed out artifact. I've done that with a couple of classes I was thinking about playing when Legion launches, and it helps a lot.

If you're not in beta, the only thing I can think of to get a sense of how the artifact will affect your class is to watch some of the youtubers who are providing information about the Legion class changes and artifacts. Two come to mind - one is finalboss, the other is preach gaming. AdamKakaBay (finalboss) and Preach from preach gaming have both made a series of class reviews like that. Preach in particular talks a good bit about abilities, talents and artifact traits and how they affect the class.

Fatboss has also covered a few classes, if I remember correctly. One of the guys (Loz? Lars?) did a fairly detailed monk review, and they may have done some others.

They're not perfect, certainly, and nothing really matches the ability to actually try it out yourself - but it is a lot better than nothing.

[v1perz53]

every artifact starts with adding a new ability.

Technically some start with passives, and have actives farther down the line. Frost DK and BM Hunter are like this, and good examples of classes that it is tough to really feel out without a maxed artifact on PTR, since you are missing a rotational/CD ability in those cases. BM Hunter is a good example, because you might find you don't enjoy keeping track of how many pets you have up to get most use out of Surge of the Storm God, but you would never know without a maxed artifact. And there are other traits that change things up as well even as passives. Like the WW ToD trait, you may find in practice you don't like the management required to make sure all CD skills are up for the ToD window to maximize this trait. Not sure how big of a deal this all ends up being, but I do understand the complaint. I'm just glad I can make premade 110 PvP chars on Beta to at least do some dummy tests with maxed artifacts.

[simonlvschal]

I've been struggling for the past few months trying to decide which class I'm going to take as my main in Legion, and I've come to realize that this is more important in Legion than in any other expansion ever. Now if we reroll from one class to another, we are not only behind in spec and levels, but also in artifact power, which is going to be a huge deal.

Artifact traits are incredibly powerful, will take a while to unlock, and can easily change how a class or spec is played once obtained. Imagine you play a class that you're enjoying only to max out your artifact traits and realize that now its nothing like what it initially was. You have no capability before then to determine how the spec is going to feel at max power level.

With out the capability to thoroughly test how a class or spec feels with a maxed out artifact, its going to cause a lot of issues for people who get unlucky and end up not liking, or even hating, how it plays out. I've always been an altoholic, but this honestly scares me more than any other expansion. I'm not even sure that I'll be able to bother trying to raise up another artifact if the first one doesn't end up being enjoyable. It could easily mean that I quit playing the expansion months before I normally would. Time and time again we have seen that these sorts of items that take so much time to unlock only screw over people who want a change of pace. The legendary rings and cloaks are two recent examples of this, and yet we're once again going down this path.

Catch up mechanics are meaningless if they don't actually CATCH YOU UP. Being one or two stages behind everyone else is NOT being "caught up".

I'm not going to beat a dead horse about what this means for spec swapping, as thats already been hit on time and time again already.

My main concern is, how am I supposed to get any idea how my chosen spec is going to play at late game? Am I really expected to invest months into a character only then to come to the conclusion that it ends up being horrible? (I'm looking at you, retribution spec).

Perhaps they're expecting it to increase "replayability" and maintain subscribers if I have to go through all of this for my alts, but that isn't true at all, I'm just going to end up losing interest faster.

if u are a loser sure.. play what class u want dont be a loser and take what everyone else does

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Rule out specs with multiple game changing abilities initially? See if there are any which don't change in a big way that you like.

[SirBeef]

Yep i am on the same boat here; i have already decided to leave my shadow priest behind and i am gonna main a WW monk, because i love the mobility the class has, i am done with the min maxing thing, for all the good it does to you, when sooner or later you are gonna team with someone with the most OP class and doing the lowest DPS of the whole group.

Did that for a while, it got to be a pain just constantly regemming, chanting, and reforging just to get back to your caps with every new piece of gear. Not fun in the least. Just pick a class you enjoy playing and do it.