[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Julmara]

ooh so haste reduces the cd on the AM too didnt know that i though it only reduces the cd on Kegsmash

[Deleted]

We did some pulls on Xavius tonight and I just got absolutely destroyed compared to our DK. He was pretty much healing himself while our healers were healing me for about ~25% of their total healing. And I kept dying.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&fight=8
Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8uIEgl3MdU
Ignore my TP spam & the fact that I sometimes used BoK before KS/BoF, I was playing around with Blackout Combo yesterday.

In the vid, esp. at 00:45 onwards... what am I supposed to do differently? Stagger was at ~80%, ISB was up, I even purified it down to ~40% (my stagger in Mythic+ was usually way higher, and that worked).
Maybe it's something obvious that I'm just not noticing and I'm an idiot, please tell me <.<

[Aracs]

Exact simcraft Values aren't possible yet I guess, but defensivly it will be something like Haste > Mastery until a certain breakpoint > Vers > Crit, and Offensivly Crit > Everything else

Actualy crit passive provides ~30-40% of total monk self-healing in raids (check logs of heroic/mythic bosses), so it is clearly better than vers.

IMO stat priority should be something like:
1) Mastery until 14-18%, depending on lvl 100 talent choice: Elusive dance => less Mastery, other talents => more Mastery, with base avoidance 10% dodge and 3% parry I suggest to go (100 - 10 - 3)/5 = 17.4%
2) Haste, as much as you can stack
3) Crit, on everything else
4) Mastery (above cap) > Vers

[Deleted]

Actualy crit passive provides ~30-40% of total monk self-healing in raids (check logs of heroic/mythic bosses), so it is clearly better than vers.

IMO stat priority should be something like:
1) Mastery until 14-18%, depending on lvl 100 talent choice: Elusive dance => less Mastery, other talents => more Mastery, with base avoidance 10% dodge and 3% parry I suggest to go (100 - 10 - 3)/5 = 17.4%
2) Haste, as much as you can stack
3) Crit, on everything else
4) Mastery (above cap) > Vers

I was talkin about a pure defensive/mitigation build. I will also priotize crit way higher in practice, but crit/celestial fortune is rng and doesn't bring any mitigation. The defensive value of crit is 0, it's just a selfheal/dps stat.

[PinDrop]

We did some pulls on Xavius tonight and I just got absolutely destroyed compared to our DK. He was pretty much healing himself while our healers were healing me for about ~25% of their total healing. And I kept dying.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&fight=8
Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8uIEgl3MdU
Ignore my TP spam & the fact that I sometimes used BoK before KS/BoF, I was playing around with Blackout Combo yesterday.

In the vid, esp. at 00:45 onwards... what am I supposed to do differently? Stagger was at ~80%, ISB was up, I even purified it down to ~40% (my stagger in Mythic+ was usually way higher, and that worked).
Maybe it's something obvious that I'm just not noticing and I'm an idiot, please tell me <.<

The first time you died you had both darkening soul and the empowered version, blackening soul, ticking on you. DK only ever had one or the other. So there may have been a taunt/dispell error in there somewhere, as I can't imagine having both is intended. Could be the boss was pushed at a bad time. Darkening soul also got up to some very high ticks right after the minute mark, but I'm not familiar enough with the encounter to know when taunts/dispels are supposed to happen. You say you purified at 80%, but then your stagger looks like it went higher and you didn't purify until much later

Looks like your IsB fell off right before you died also, which is almost always going to be deadly if you're taking hefty magic damage, and Black Ox Brew maybe wasn't quite off cooldown yet? You used it three times with a big gap between the 2nd and 3rd times, looks like it may have been just about to come up when the death happened, maybe could have squeezed some more ISB uptime and Purifies out to help with the dying. I think the double debuffs is the likely culprit though. The boss trucked you with an enormous melee hit right before the death, which you purified immediately, so nice timing there, but since IsB wasn't up it didn't do as much as it could have. Not sure why he hit you almost twice as hard as he had been with that hit though.

You don't want to sit on Black ox Brew, as you're wasting so much CDR having it sit off cooldown. When you start tanking pop three IsBs right away, BoB, then another IsB, and you'll have a couple brews ready for purifies as your Keg and Palm go to work. Then you can IsB(for uptime) or Purify(depending on your stagger) to avoid capping charges until BoB comes back around, which should be around the point where you're getting brew starved.

[Xequecal]

There are some fights, mostly in mythic+, where stagger can tick a LOT harder than a melee hit. There's a pack of crackheads in Blackrook Hold that drink a buff potion that make them attack 2-3 times per second at normal elite damage. They can become bolstered, rampage, or just standard auto. I've gotten to points where I'd purify three times consecutively and still remained in red.

I thought it was pretty well implied that I was talking about tanking only one boss mob. If you have a half-dozen mobs attacking you, you obviously can be hit 20 times in 10 seconds and as such your stagger ticks can be higher than the melee hits of one of those mobs. However, that doesn't mean much as the stagger ticks are still 1/6th of the total incoming melee damage in this example, exactly the same as if you were only tanking one boss mob.

- - - Updated - - -

The first time you died you had both darkening soul and the empowered version, blackening soul, ticking on you. DK only ever had one or the other. So there may have been a taunt/dispell error in there somewhere, as I can't imagine having both is intended. Could be the boss was pushed at a bad time. Darkening soul also got up to some very high ticks right after the minute mark, but I'm not familiar enough with the encounter to know when taunts/dispels are supposed to happen. You say you purified at 80%, but then your stagger looks like it went higher and you didn't purify until much later

Looks like your IsB fell off right before you died also, which is almost always going to be deadly if you're taking hefty magic damage, and Black Ox Brew maybe wasn't quite off cooldown yet? You used it three times with a big gap between the 2nd and 3rd times, looks like it may have been just about to come up when the death happened, maybe could have squeezed some more ISB uptime and Purifies out to help with the dying. I think the double debuffs is the likely culprit though. The boss trucked you with an enormous melee hit right before the death, which you purified immediately, so nice timing there, but since IsB wasn't up it didn't do as much as it could have. Not sure why he hit you almost twice as hard as he had been with that hit though.

You don't want to sit on Black ox Brew, as you're wasting so much CDR having it sit off cooldown. When you start tanking pop three IsBs right away, BoB, then another IsB, and you'll have a couple brews ready for purifies as your Keg and Palm go to work. Then you can IsB(for uptime) or Purify(depending on your stagger) to avoid capping charges until BoB comes back around, which should be around the point where you're getting brew starved.

DKs are very overpowered on fights that consist of just taunt swapping 1 big mob and not having to tank anything half the time. This is because they can take the talent that doubles both Bone Shield DR% and its charge consumption, and then not run out of charges because they can build up charges by marrowrending the boss while they're not tanking.

[PinDrop]

DKs are very overpowered on fights that consist of just taunt swapping 1 big mob and not having to tank anything half the time. This is because they can take the talent that doubles both Bone Shield DR% and its charge consumption, and then not run out of charges because they can build up charges by marrowrending the boss while they're not tanking.

Meters might not be tracking it correctly, but according to them the DK sat on 10 charges for the entire fight, so that didn't do anything in this scenario.

[redfella]

DKs are very overpowered on fights that consist of just taunt swapping 1 big mob and not having to tank anything half the time. This is because they can take the talent that doubles both Bone Shield DR% and its charge consumption, and then not run out of charges because they can build up charges by marrowrending the boss while they're not tanking.

To be fair, you build up Bone Shield charges very fast even while tanking. There are still some bosses that will eat through your 10 charges before your time to tank is over, even when you are building more (3 per Marrowrend), since they hit so fast and the talent that lets Bone Shield eat more charges has no ICD (basicly it works so that a melee hit that hits you for more than 25% of your HP will use a second bone charge).

[stross01]

We did some pulls on Xavius tonight and I just got absolutely destroyed compared to our DK. He was pretty much healing himself while our healers were healing me for about ~25% of their total healing. And I kept dying.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&fight=8
Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8uIEgl3MdU
Ignore my TP spam & the fact that I sometimes used BoK before KS/BoF, I was playing around with Blackout Combo yesterday.

In the vid, esp. at 00:45 onwards... what am I supposed to do differently? Stagger was at ~80%, ISB was up, I even purified it down to ~40% (my stagger in Mythic+ was usually way higher, and that worked).
Maybe it's something obvious that I'm just not noticing and I'm an idiot, please tell me <.<

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play. It doesn't prevent as much damage as people are trying to convey. Your self-healing goes to shit, your avoidance is in the trash, and the strength of what few Gift of the Ox you get is extremely low. It just leaves you in constant, perpetual stagger debt that you're forever struggling to pay off.

[v1perz53]

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play. It doesn't prevent as much damage as people are trying to convey. Your self-healing goes to shit, your avoidance is in the trash, and the strength of what few Gift of the Ox you get is extremely low. It just leaves you in constant, perpetual stagger debt that you're forever struggling to pay off.

My biggest gripe with the "Haste 100% ISB" build is that it actively prevents NO damage. Stagger doesn't prevent a single point of damage, it only spreads it over 10 seconds. And there are no more general tank DR passives for monk, so a BrM who isn't purifying is essentially taking the same overall damage a Rogue would take that was tanking a boss, before factoring in things like avoidance. It definitely smoothes the damage and makes it far more healable than a Rogue would take, but the fact remains that point for point healers have to spend more mana on a BrM with 100% uptime ISB and 0 Purifys versus one with balanced ISB/Purify (unless you are spiking so low that they are casting very inefficient heals). If healer mana matters, this can end up being a dangerous way to play, but if healers have infinte mana again the damage smoothing might end up being worth it. I don't think the latter is the case though.

[keqe]

Well at this point full haste build seems strong because every additional brew you get from haste goes to purifying brew. And the value of haste seems quite good thanks to BoB change.

Depends on how many additional purifies does haste provide compared to benefits what other stats brings.

[Tech614]

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play.

A "pure haste" shouldn't be playing with just 100% ISB up time as you need very little haste to maintain that. The entire point of a haste build should be having more brew charges to purify more often.

[fringemoo]

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play. It doesn't prevent as much damage as people are trying to convey. Your self-healing goes to shit, your avoidance is in the trash, and the strength of what few Gift of the Ox you get is extremely low. It just leaves you in constant, perpetual stagger debt that you're forever struggling to pay off.

Leaving the viability of a brewmaster aside, I'm pretty sure haste is likely to be the best TMI, dps and dtps stat. I don't have a 110 brewmaster since when I decided to test one they changed the camera which makes it unplayable for me.

But at 100 with mythic hfc gear, 4set and archi. trinket you have more charges than you can use. This is to say you have enough to keep ISB 100% (and I mean actually through out the fight even when off-tanking) and purify (using BoB).

But I'm fairly sure no matter the level of gear / haste, haste just does too much compared to the other stats. It's actually a theme for almost all tanking specs, apart from druid iirc.

[Xequecal]

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play. It doesn't prevent as much damage as people are trying to convey. Your self-healing goes to shit, your avoidance is in the trash, and the strength of what few Gift of the Ox you get is extremely low. It just leaves you in constant, perpetual stagger debt that you're forever struggling to pay off.

It doesn't prevent any damage, actually, but depending on how healing shakes out it could easily end up being the best way to tank. In, say, WOTLK tanks got something like 90% overheal because they would gib if you didn't just spam spam spam. The amount of damage overall they took was irrelevant, and you were absolutely correct to min/max shit and discard 500 in secondary stats in favor of 5 stamina.

[Leblue]

But at 100 with mythic hfc gear, 4set and archi. trinket you have more charges than you can use. This is to say you have enough to keep ISB 100% (and I mean actually through out the fight even when off-tanking) and purify (using BoB)

I'm going to be that guy and say all the cool toys to make brews at 100 is pretty much irrelevant to what happens with Brewmaster at 110. Its going to be amusing to see how much crap we churn out, but it'll be something that won't matter within about a week or two of Legion launching unless for some reason our class trinket stays good or something dumb.

I'm sure there's some point where it becomes more worthwhile to invest in the other stats over haste regardless of where you as a player value it defensively because you'll have enough coverage in whatever content you're doing (i.e. I really didn't need as much as I had with over 45 seconds of ISB left on a boss) and you'll want the bonuses of other stats to compliment it. In the end I think saying "stack the hell out of haste" is a good starting point for someone who doesn't want to think about it too much. If they use all that extra brew on just ISB though, then they probably won't fair well on challenging content relative to a tank who balances this better (which should pretty much go without saying).

I'm personally (warning I have very little to no math to back this up) going to favor haste > crit >= mastery > vers myself, but I think there's most certainly a discussion to be had for choosing to switch those priorities around based on how things are feeling for you as a player and your comfort level and the content you're tackling.

[PinDrop]

I will probably start a fire in this thread, but the pure haste build with "100% uptime ISB" is a pure shit way to play. It doesn't prevent as much damage as people are trying to convey. Your self-healing goes to shit, your avoidance is in the trash, and the strength of what few Gift of the Ox you get is extremely low. It just leaves you in constant, perpetual stagger debt that you're forever struggling to pay off.

My biggest gripe with the "Haste 100% ISB" build is that it actively prevents NO damage. Stagger doesn't prevent a single point of damage, it only spreads it over 10 seconds. And there are no more general tank DR passives for monk, so a BrM who isn't purifying...

Well at this point full haste build seems strong because every additional brew you get from haste goes to purifying brew. And the value of haste seems quite good thanks to BoB change.

Depends on how many additional purifies does haste provide compared to benefits what other stats brings.

Getting 100% ISB uptime while tanking, as in, with swaps, is very easy at little haste with BoB. You absolutely need to be purifying to take advantage of the high percentages of stagger you will be reaching, though. More haste means more charge generation, which means more brews available to purify with. 100% uptime ISB should never directly compete with your ability to purify, they go hand in hand, you need to be doing both to survive. At low levels of haste without BoB this is difficult to do, which is why haste is recommended.

On the other hand, GotO orbs are based on your damage taken after staggering, so if you are staggering everything with ISB, then yes, you will have reduced Orb generation for self heals. You should be making up for that with stronger purifies at key moments.

I suppose there are two possible play styles currently floating around, either always keep ISB up while you tank and purify as much away as you can, or ISB only for heavy hits(boss specials) and trust in your healers to keep you up while you assist by popping the increased amount of orbs you'll be getting. The first of these requires BoB and haste, the second possibly favors mastery, and crit for increased healing taken. It would be great if both of these play styles turn out to be viable, even better if different bosses required you to swap between these methods, so you aren't treating every fight exactly the same.

[v1perz53]

Getting 100% ISB uptime while tanking, as in, with swaps, is very easy at little haste with BoB. You absolutely need to be purifying to take advantage of the high percentages of stagger you will be reaching, though.

Are you talking about current 110 raid testing scenarios or sims or just mathematically? Not attacking, I just haven't personally done any raid testing on my BrM at 110 so I don't know how generation feels. But of course if you are able to have 100% ISB uptime and have extra Brew charges you would Purify so as not to waste charges, I don't think anyone would disagree. But there are people who would say that the smoothing factor of ISB is so much more important than PB that up to the point where you can have full ISB coverage, you ignore PB completely, and that is the playstyle I disagree with. Comes more into play in something like Mythic+ dungeons where you are the only tank, and you don't have opportunities when not tanking to let charges rebuild. It is those situations that it becomes important for us to figure out the optimal way to handle charges.

I suppose there are two possible play styles currently floating around, either always keep ISB up while you tank and purify as much away as you can, or ISB only for heavy hits(boss specials) and trust in your healers to keep you up while you assist by popping the increased amount of orbs you'll be getting. The first of these requires BoB and haste, the second possibly favors mastery, and crit for increased healing taken. It would be great if both of these play styles turn out to be viable, even better if different bosses required you to swap between these methods, so you aren't treating every fight exactly the same.

Even in the second playstyle you mentioned, I don't think anyone would sit with 3 charges of ISB not using one because they are letting healers handle it and trying to game orbs, you would still always use ISB enough to make sure it is always recharging, but then you still have 2 in the bank for emergencies. I see the two "playstyles" a little differently. The first is more of a keep ISB up 100% for damage smoothing, then use extra brew charges to Purify, while the second is more use ISB to maximize the effect of each Purify, but use ISB/PB in a more balanced fashion. I haven't seen too many people trying to game GotO orbs anymore, it is more figuring out the split between ISB uptime/PB use. I personally like the second option more, since it results in less overall damage taken, but I can see why people think the first has power as well.

[PinDrop]

Are you talking about current 110 raid testing scenarios or sims or just mathematically?...But there are people who would say that the smoothing factor of ISB is so much more important than PB that up to the point where you can have full ISB coverage, you ignore PB completely, and that is the playstyle I disagree with.

This is based on my own math at 110, which very well could be flawed. We are on the same page, though: if anyone is ignoring purifying completely then they may as well take all of their tank-related abilities off their bars and just play as some sort of dps. Since purifying is 50%, though, I keep feeling like you need to have your stagger at a high level for it to be worth using. I suppose if you aren't working with IsB up all the time, that threshold would be lower as you are taking more damage to your healthbar up front. If you gain back the stagger you just purified in a couple of hits then it probably was a waste of a brew. For the second play style I mentioned above let me correct myself to say you would IsB before a big hit and then purify right after it lands, or right before the IsB ends, so you get the most out of the purify before your stagger drops on its own. You'd definitely still use both, though.

I'm too lazy to get my monk to 110, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm just having fun theorizing and plugging numbers into crappy homemade spreadsheets.

[Ampere]

This is only the case when you pick Gift of the Mists as a T45 Talent, but this talent isn't the default choice except maybe for leveling and solo play.

Even if you don't take Gift of the Mists you have to play around low health if you want to frequently utilize Obstinate Determination (which we probably should, it's a massive amount of healing).

[fringemoo]

...On the other hand, GotO orbs are based on your damage taken after staggering, so if you are staggering everything with ISB, then yes, you will have reduced Orb generation for self heals...

That is incorrect orbs generate based on damage taken as if you didn't stagger anything. Meaning if the boss hits you for 100% of your health and you stagger 99% of it you will still generate an orb.

There are two mechanics that are health based, one is Gift of the Mists talent which you probably shouldn't be picking up since it competes with BoB and the second is Obstinate Determination (artifact) which although nice I wouldn't game in a progression environment.

There is zero reasons to sit on ISB charges if you're taking damage unless you're limited and know a big hit is coming.

PS. I found this http://www.wowinterface.com/download...cPurified.html which some of you might find useful