Ret is just THAT BAD !

[Rikkof]

I am sorry for the ret state atm, i have unlocked all teh 3 relics on my weapon, i have a very high level of ap ( i think i stand at 27 or so atm), my gear is 855, running mythics at +5 atm, because our guildie healer can't be bothered for more, and the damage just ins;t there.
You get to throttle your attacks sometimes, waiting for Judgement to come of cd( yes, even with haste...), and sometimes you can/t hit fast enough ( especially during judgement phase), to get those holy spenders in.
The play style is clunky as we have to manage now both timers and resource gains, all of this while doing our "rotation"...
At 855 , for the life of me, i cant pass 294k dps single target, while my fury warr destroys the target dummy for close to 225-230k dps , at 30 ilevels less.
They tried top buff the damage but is not the damage that it's the main culprit, it is the rotation and hp management coupled with timing of the skills and skills coming off cd.
You WILL end out with 5 HoPo and the judgement on 3-4 sec left , eventually.
You WILL end up with judgement off cd, but no HoPo.
I am not even going to speak about movement, there is so much run in and out in raids that is just melting my brain how we do not have a movement speed that is appropriate for raid encounters, without sacrificing our bubble cd by taking the steed.
The aoe radius of some bosses is INSANE, like really...fury warrior with leap+ speed buff afterwards barely makes it out...while i trail behind like a mofo taking the blunt of the dmg and the cries of the healers .

I played my ret on ptr the most, i tried to love him, to understand the logic behind the changes...but i just cant go on, i am realizing that where it matters ( Mythic raiding) the rets are going to be a hindrance.
And i don't want to hinder my guild progress when mythic will come , by beeing stuborn, so yeah, i am reroling. Or stop playing, i have yet 3 weeks to decide....

TLDR: damage compared to other classes is LOW.

[OrcsRLame]

OP changes mind like a girl changes tampons.

OT: Paladyn is a support class now with Lay on Hands and greater Blessings or World of Glory. With that said, I tire of Rets never having been part of any World First kill. The Devs balance around popularity and with off-healing in mind. Since Ret is the most popular melee there is no reason for them to make it equal DPS to other melees.
They give Rogue or WW Monks a bit more DPS as a tuning knob for people to play them.

Right off hand, there were a couple of rets that were part of the wf 25 heroic Lich King and one for mythic Mar'gok. There's probably others as well, but I don't feel like going through youtube videos for an hour.

That being said I do understand what you mean. Seems like there's always been 3 rogues and 3 DKs. Or at least on a lot of kills.

[OrcsRLame]

Ah yes LK I started in Cata, don't know what was before. Still, that is six years without any World First end boss kills that had Rets which is extremely unrepresentative of their popularity.

Margok only had a Tank and Healer Pala
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuW_whFQaY

MFW didn't realize the #4 person on meters was prot.

[Deleted]

Basically why i think the design of the spec is an unmitigated disaster dowsed in arrogance.

The judgment mechanic and the HP mechanic don't mesh together. Spending asap for efficient HP generation and pooling are opposite playstyles. So, one of them will inevitably be ignored over the other. Just a matter of wich one scales better. The mechanics don't mesh together and the designers are outright incompetent for not realising this.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

So what is looking good atm? Hows DH or surv hunters looking?

[Snegovik]

So what is looking good atm? Hows DH or surv hunters looking?

DH have a mix feed back, some ppl say that DH-havoc is a brain dead class with boring rotation, others love DH-Havoc with its mobility, flying around, high dmg.

From PvP pov Havoc's weakness are : ur hard counter are roots/stuns since you can not escape those other than trinket, your survival outside of Meta is total crap.
Pros: Very good dmg in PvP, from all the arenas i watched (3s) with a healer, DH-Havoc alw top dmg meters even on the losing team, they are good @ tunneling healers not only the dmg wise but multiple abilities to prevent them casting.

Personally I find DH is something similar to current Ret on live, 1 big OP cd where you are god mode, good mobility, very soft in PvP.

[unstableone]

Ret is bad, and if devs have read any of the 95 pages of the feedback forums they probably know.

But it's too late to do anything about it. They could fix it, but wont, because "class fantasy."

No minor adjustment / tweak can fix the spec because it's fundamentally flawed.
Expect it to be bad for the entire expansion, if not the expansion after too; just like cata/mop.

[Deleted]

DH have a mix feed back, some ppl say that DH-havoc is a brain dead class with boring rotation, others love DH-Havoc with its mobility, flying around, high dmg..

I'd wonder if the former are basing their view on how it is at level 100, where you don't have the combination of talents that make it interesting. Without those, it isn't particularly inspired. I have no idea why Blizzard made this decision as it has the very real prospect of putting people off in the few weeks they'll get to try it out before launch.

[Pull My Finger]

unmitigated disaster dowsed in arrogance

Wow, you kids should really get over yourselves. Just because you don't like a certain thing, it doesn't mean that the people who designed it that way are malicious bastards who trample on your human dignity.

[Deleted]

Margok only had a Tank and Healer Pala
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuW_whFQaY

Fraggoji BibleThump

[Deleted]

Wow, you kids should really get over yourselves. Just because you don't like a certain thing, it doesn't mean that the people who designed it that way are malicious bastards who trample on your human dignity.

Besides the fact that you are no one to be calling others kids, you didn't quite understood what i said either. The arrogance comes from beeing too arrogant to recognise they made a mistake. Want proof? Sure, look at Kalgan's reply over the whole Equality/holy wrath fiasco. Completely ignoring all feedback and putting his foot down totally on arrogance. The talent is trash, its still trash and it will always be trash and will 100% be removed by next expansion. If this isn't arrogance i don't know what is.

Also, i presented justification over what i said in the original post i made. Maybe try reading the whole thing before poping a vein at the first sentence.

[Butosai]

I am sorry for the ret state atm, i have unlocked all teh 3 relics on my weapon, i have a very high level of ap ( i think i stand at 27 or so atm), my gear is 855, running mythics at +5 atm, because our guildie healer can't be bothered for more, and the damage just ins;t there.
You get to throttle your attacks sometimes, waiting for Judgement to come of cd( yes, even with haste...), and sometimes you can/t hit fast enough ( especially during judgement phase), to get those holy spenders in.
The play style is clunky as we have to manage now both timers and resource gains, all of this while doing our "rotation"...
At 855 , for the life of me, i cant pass 294k dps single target, while my fury warr destroys the target dummy for close to 225-230k dps , at 30 ilevels less.
They tried top buff the damage but is not the damage that it's the main culprit, it is the rotation and hp management coupled with timing of the skills and skills coming off cd.
You WILL end out with 5 HoPo and the judgement on 3-4 sec left , eventually.
You WILL end up with judgement off cd, but no HoPo.
I am not even going to speak about movement, there is so much run in and out in raids that is just melting my brain how we do not have a movement speed that is appropriate for raid encounters, without sacrificing our bubble cd by taking the steed.
The aoe radius of some bosses is INSANE, like really...fury warrior with leap+ speed buff afterwards barely makes it out...while i trail behind like a mofo taking the blunt of the dmg and the cries of the healers .

I played my ret on ptr the most, i tried to love him, to understand the logic behind the changes...but i just cant go on, i am realizing that where it matters ( Mythic raiding) the rets are going to be a hindrance.
And i don't want to hinder my guild progress when mythic will come , by beeing stuborn, so yeah, i am reroling. Or stop playing, i have yet 3 weeks to decide....

TLDR: damage compared to other classes is LOW.

how does gaining 5 ilvls (compared to premade 110) grant an extra 100k dps

[Urza29]

This saddens me, because i mained a ret paladin in wod, and i am a casual not a raider, i cleared some normal bosses, a few on heroic pugs, so I guess to me I am not expected to play at the "upper" levels like mythics, so i cant compare any experience there

but i did have fun with ret in wod, it was fast paced, it had lots of things to push (i still dont get why blizz has killed a lot of specs with less buttons...) but it was just well...FUN

Now reading this and now that i am in beta i am thinking of jumping on to try it myself, because you really cant decide without trying it out first, but it sounds like you make a good argument, and I read it, knowing i will be dissapointed i guess.

My other toon is my hunter, and i have no idea what i want to even play on her as far as specs go. I was running marks in WOD because of the stupid high burst potential and dps in dungeons/LFR, and the no pet thing was kinda neat for a little change up. However, now that all 3 specs are completely different (mostly)

Idk which i will like more, all 3 sound great to try/play honestly. I love the idea of melee hunter, the beast mastery with focus on pets sounds cool, and even survival gives that vanilla survival feeling, traps and what not

3rd toon is shadow priest, and I only just started trying to dps and get an optimal rotation in wod a few months ago, and still never got it down perfectly, as it was kinda hard, i mean as you get used to it its ok but wasnt really liking it as much as the past like in mop or cata even.

Now its all being changed again, and looks complicated..again...Idk...probaly just take up disc or holy healing instead. The "concept" or "feeling" of shadow in legion looks awesome, but gameplay wise...still unsure....

My druid has only ever been cat or bear, both look pretty good i hope neither one is complicated rotationally to be optimal, tired of having to have addons and guides and videos just to get sub-par dps unless practice till fingers bleed, and still never satisfied.

I did do a rogue boost, been loving that, but again now everything's changed...again...so now have to learn 3 new specs, but outlaw looks pretty cool class fantasy

Idk..seems in legion I'll be changing up my mains and re-thinking my alts, and changing up things first time since cata, or early mop, we got comfortable with wod, now in legion its like starting the entire game over again, literally as far as classes go, talents, artifacts, so much change.....

[theburned]

how does gaining 5 ilvls (compared to premade 110) grant an extra 100k dps

How did you come up with this assumption?

There isnt even a premade 110, unless you are talking about pvp realms.

[Menzolies]

I'm worried about Ret spec, but I'm not really willing to change as I hear that prot is not great either and I suck at healing, haven't done it since Wraith.

[Snegovik]

I'd wonder if the former are basing their view on how it is at level 100, where you don't have the combination of talents that make it interesting. Without those, it isn't particularly inspired. I have no idea why Blizzard made this decision as it has the very real prospect of putting people off in the few weeks they'll get to try it out before launch.

I actually think the same way, i believe all those "boring rotation" booers are people who did not unlock all the talents + artifact traits or even hit 110, since at first you have very very few abilities when you start, but honestly once you unlock everything DH is not the most complex spec but at the same time not the most brain dead (aka BM hunter on beta).
The vengeance spec however, every1 loves it lol so go figure, i guess this will be a very tank friendly xpac.

Personally i know i will level my own DH to 110 and judge for myself, ever since WC3 DH was my fav hero, hence the least i will level it to 110 =).

P.S. I can bet Blizzard won't make DH-Havoc an underdog like Rets are, since this new class is Blizzard's cash cow, a hope to bring subs back up, hence i highly doubt they will shot themselves in a foot by ruining DH class

- - - Updated - - -

I'm worried about Ret spec, but I'm not really willing to change as I hear that prot is not great either and I suck at healing, haven't done it since Wraith.

Well from PvP pov Prot is doing great, so as Blood and Prot war, all very good, border line OP atm in PvP.

[Pull My Finger]

Besides the fact that you are no one to be calling others kids, you didn't quite understood what i said either. The arrogance comes from beeing too arrogant to recognise they made a mistake. Want proof? Sure, look at Kalgan's reply over the whole Equality/holy wrath fiasco. Completely ignoring all feedback and putting his foot down totally on arrogance. The talent is trash, its still trash and it will always be trash and will 100% be removed by next expansion. If this isn't arrogance i don't know what is.

Also, i presented justification over what i said in the original post i made. Maybe try reading the whole thing before poping a vein at the first sentence.

Blah. The fact that you're talking about "arrogance" shows how absurdly personally aggrieved you feel, which is incredibly paranoid and childish. There's nothing for you to argument against, it's EXACTLY what I already said: just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's an affront on everything that's right in this world, and it's not a reason to take it personally like you do. You just act like a kid that's really really angry that the "arrogant" adults ignore its crying.

[Deleted]

Blah. The fact that you're talking about "arrogance" shows how absurdly personally aggrieved you feel, which is incredibly paranoid and childish. There's nothing for you to argument against, it's EXACTLY what I already said: just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean it's an affront on everything that's right in this world, and it's not a reason to take it personally like you do. You just act like a kid that's really really angry that the "arrogant" adults ignore its crying.

Right. I see you are just a trouble maker. Moving on.

[Malthanis]

Premise of the thread is just QQ, closing.