Warrior Order Hall and Storytelling in Legion

[Archimtiros]

Stormforged Valajar were explained in Chronicle.

'From atop his fortress, Odyn, bellowed out a proclamation to all vrykul. Those who proved their bravery by dying glorious deaths in battle would live again in the Halls of Valor. Their spirits would be transported to the fortress and given mighty new storm-forged bodies.' -page 47 of Chronicle.

This doesn't excuse them from explaining it in game (they should at least do so for warriors, since it's basically our class order), but the explanation is available in the lore.

Fair enough. I've only skimmed that book, and I agree, WoW has gotten really bad as of late about not representing information in game. Still, it does leave you with a lot of questions as to why/how/etc.

To be fair though, even the text above is contradicted somewhat by the events portrayed in game. In game, their actual body is brought up to the HoV, not just their spirits. They are also quite capable of traveling back to the "mortal" realm below, as seen many times in game, and despite the assertion that Odyn can't send any of his forces out of the HoV due to Helya's Curse.

In fact, and referencing my thought above, I kind of think the whole thing works out better without the whole "afterlife" motif. Simply having the Vrykul brought to the HoV and made immortal through the use of golem bodies (which raises a whole lot of interesting ethical, sociological, and even moral questions, of which there are already many WRT Odyn's actions).

[Calith-]

Fair enough. I've only skimmed that book, and I agree, WoW has gotten really bad as of late about not representing information in game. Still, it does leave you with a lot of questions as to why/how/etc.

To be fair though, even the text above is contradicted somewhat by the events portrayed in game. In game, their actual body is brought up to the HoV, not just their spirits. They are also quite capable of traveling back to the "mortal" realm below, as seen many times in game, and despite the assertion that Odyn can't send any of his forces out of the HoV due to Helya's Curse.

In fact, and referencing my thought above, I kind of think the whole thing works out better without the whole "afterlife" motif. Simply having the Vrykul brought to the HoV and made immortal through the use of golem bodies (which raises a whole lot of interesting ethical, sociological, and even moral questions, of which there are already many WRT Odyn's actions).

It's just more inconsistency. During the Warrior intro you clearly see the Val'kyr yank the souls out of their bodies and ascend them to HoV, but up there they're fully corporeal without any explanation. And if proving your valor by dying in combat is enough to become Stormforged, why are there only a handful of them around while the majority are plain Vrkuls.

It would work better if they skipped the afterlife aspect, in fact I think none of the Valhalla tropes of going to an afterlife to feast and have a good time are consistent with the actual story they're trying to tell.

[Flacko]

Why isn't Saurfang here for example?.

Not again..

[Florena]

Not again..

Okay he was just the first warrior npc that popped into my head, maybe not a great example but the overall point still stands that the champion selection is rather lacking compared to other order halls.

[mysticx]

Okay he was just the first warrior npc that popped into my head, maybe not a great example but the overall point still stands that the champion selection is rather lacking compared to other order halls.

It's simple really, the warrior class is the way Blizz can get their immense (As well as sudden) Viking-obsession out of their system, we get Valhalla as order hall (And also as a 5-man, efficiency!), viki... oops, Vrykul as followers and we might as well get used to the idea, because we're not going to get anything really warrior-like anyway at this point.

I'm planning to just put up with it, visit Odyn's bath-house as little as i can get away with and just enjoy the game, there's nothing our wailing and teeth-gnashing will accomplish anyway...

[Florena]

It's simple really, the warrior class is the way Blizz can get their immense (As well as sudden) Viking-obsession out of their system, we get Valhalla as order hall (And also as a 5-man, efficiency!), viki... oops, Vrykul as followers and we might as well get used to the idea, because we're not going to get anything really warrior-like anyway at this point.

I'm planning to just put up with it, visit Odyn's bath-house as little as i can get away with and just enjoy the game, there's nothing our wailing and teeth-gnashing will accomplish anyway...

Yeah sadly at this point it's too late to expect any big changes in the beta. Though to be fair warriors aren't the only class with reused assets for their order halls.

[mysticx]

Yeah sadly at this point it's too late to expect any big changes in the beta. Though to be fair warriors aren't the only class with reused assets for their order halls.

Warriors are the only class without any established NPCs of their class in "their" order hall, though... :P

Meh, as long as i get to hit stuff with big weapons, who cares?

[Florena]

Warriors are the only class without any established NPCs of their class in "their" order hall, though... :P

Meh, as long as i get to hit stuff with big weapons, who cares?

On the npcs and champions I agree it's terrible. Rather than assembling notable warriors from around Azeroth like every other class they get only vrykul and related stuff. It's dumb. The only pre existing characters seem to be the three bosses returning from Wrath.

The actual hall itself I don't mind, but they could have done so much better with the npcs.

[Flacko]

Okay he was just the first warrior npc that popped into my head, maybe not a great example but the overall point still stands that the champion selection is rather lacking compared to other order halls.

Nothing to do with Saurfang. Just quoting Blizzards argument."The Warrior Order Hall originally had lots of ghosts of the famous Warriors, but it didn't feel appropriate for all of these Human and Orc heroes to appear in this Vrykul place." Hope this is enough..

[Florena]

Nothing to do with Saurfang. Just quoting Blizzards argument."The Warrior Order Hall originally had lots of ghosts of the famous Warriors, but it didn't feel appropriate for all of these Human and Orc heroes to appear in this Vrykul place." Hope this is enough..

I can agree with ghosts of dead characters not showing up there. But Saurfang's not dead is he? I disagree with them that having other warriors who are still alive would be out of place though. Surly if Odyn is fine with picking a hero from another race to lead his efforts against the Legion he'd be fine with recruiting OTHER great warriors from across Azeroth right? I don't see why blizz couldn't have done that. The way they did it makes it less the Warrior Class Hall and more the Vrykul Race Hall with the warrior PC thrown in because reasons.

Or if they really couldn't make it work, maybe go with a class hall that ISN'T tied to one specific, non playable race's lore. Too late now to make changes like this but I really feel like they dropped the ball.

[Archimtiros]

It's simple really, the warrior class is the way Blizz can get their immense (As well as sudden) Viking-obsession out of their system, we get Valhalla as order hall (And also as a 5-man, efficiency!), viki... oops, Vrykul as followers and we might as well get used to the idea, because we're not going to get anything really warrior-like anyway at this point.

I'm planning to just put up with it, visit Odyn's bath-house as little as i can get away with and just enjoy the game, there's nothing our wailing and teeth-gnashing will accomplish anyway...

Valarjar is also a rep in Stormheim for everyone, despite the fact that there are no actual Valarjar in Stormheim.

[ryudaraku]

Yeah sadly at this point it's too late to expect any big changes in the beta. Though to be fair warriors aren't the only class with reused assets for their order halls.

-cough cough- Acherus -cough cough-

I thought about this too, but like Archimtiros said, the entire premise is flawed. Bringing together ghosts of old Warriors isn’t the problem, putting them in an artificial afterlife explicitly for Vrykul is the problem.

Well, It should not have been an artificial afterlife explicitly for Vyrkul in the first damn place :P That is the ENTIRE problem with the warrior class hall. One of the Reasons I hate the artifact system as a whole (Including Class halls) is you can tell which classes they worked hard on to craft a worthy experience..and who got sloppy seconds from affliction warlocks.

[Slaman]

I didn't read through this entire thread so forgive me if I'm repeating someone, but does it bother anyone else that Odyn is a huge douche? Some examples:

• He was pissed when none of the other keepers listened to him that they shouldn't empower the Dragon Aspects to watch over the world (which they had to do because Odyn was a shit Prime Designate and lost track of what he was supposed to be doing).
• As a result, he decided to make his own army to listen to him when the Aspects inevitably (in his mind) fucked everything up.
• Tyr (who pretty much objectively did everything right in his lifetime) begged him not to do this, and despite no other keeper stepping up when he asked for help, he did it anyway.
• He enlisted Helya (his "adopted daughter") to steal a wing of Ulduar, and when nobody volunteered to be a "phantom being for all eternity" (val'kyr), he forced random vrykul to become them. Helya, after saying this was (obviously) a bad call, was forced to become the first one entirely against her will.
• Not only that, he made her essentially be a slave, as she was forced to obey anything he said. She did this for milennia until Loken helped her out.
• He was such an asshole that for many milennia after Helya banished the Halls of Valor, none of the other keepers did anything to bring him back. Even after Yogg-Saron's corruption was freed from them a few years ago, they still chose to leave him there (I don't have beta, so I don't know what finally brought them out of banishment).

This is the leader we have. I know warriors aren't really supposed to be cuddly and nice or anything, but this guy is a huge douchenozzle and has been for tens of thousands of years. I'd rather have my Saurfangs and Trollbanes and Korfax's lead us.

[Murlocbait]

I didn't read through this entire thread so forgive me if I'm repeating someone, but does it bother anyone else that Odyn is a huge douche?

Yes, many of us. But we're stuck with him... because fuck us.

[Seratha]

Yes, many of us. But we're stuck with him... because fuck us.

I have to agree with this sentiment. I can make my peace with everything else going on with our Order Hall, but Odyn is just insufferable. I'd rather work with Helya--at least I can sympathize with her situation. Odyn, on the other hand, is just asking to be a raid boss that we unceremoniously kill somewhere down the line.

[Archimtiros]

-cough cough- Acherus -cough cough-



Well, It should not have been an artificial afterlife explicitly for Vyrkul in the first damn place :P That is the ENTIRE problem with the warrior class hall. One of the Reasons I hate the artifact system as a whole (Including Class halls) is you can tell which classes they worked hard on to craft a worthy experience..and who got sloppy seconds from affliction warlocks.

To be fair, Acherus fits the Death Knights very well, and while they definitely did them a disservice by not updating it more, you can't argue with the overall theme. Plus they did at least move it to the Broken Shore, which is a nice touch, making it essentially their own little Dalaran (and yet for some reason the DH's ship is still on another planet somewhere).

Also, having played through many of them, I can say the Death Knights have one of the better campaigns. It's solely rooted in "their" ideals as death knights, but still recognizes the world around them. The whole time you're raising fallen heroes they're talking about how much the rest of the world is going to hate them for it. Additionally, although disdained by many, they create a fairly compelling relationship between the Ebon Blade and Bolvar/The Lich King. This is further explored actually out in the world of Legion, as echoes of The Lich King (the first one) whisper to you. I have an theory that the (patch-extended) class hall story is going to end in a showdown between the Ebon Blade and the new Lich King, which would also be very cool if it ends up happening.

As far as atmosphere goes though, I think that Paladins, Mages, Druids, Hunters, and Rogues definitely won the lottery when it comes to class halls. The environments are very well detailed, fit the class concepts perfectly, and there's a lot of life to them, with plenty of recognizable NPCs going about daily routines. They all really feel like what class halls were meant to be.

[ryudaraku]

To be fair, Acherus fits the Death Knights very well, and while they definitely did them a disservice by not updating it more, you can't argue with the overall theme. Plus they did at least move it to the Broken Shore, which is a nice touch, making it essentially their own little Dalaran (and yet for some reason the DH's ship is still on another planet somewhere).

Also, having played through many of them, I can say the Death Knights have one of the better campaigns. It's solely rooted in "their" ideals as death knights, but still recognizes the world around them. The whole time you're raising fallen heroes they're talking about how much the rest of the world is going to hate them for it. Additionally, although disdained by many, they create a fairly compelling relationship between the Ebon Blade and Bolvar/The Lich King. This is further explored actually out in the world of Legion, as echoes of The Lich King (the first one) whisper to you. I have an theory that the (patch-extended) class hall story is going to end in a showdown between the Ebon Blade and the new Lich King, which would also be very cool if it ends up happening.

As far as atmosphere goes though, I think that Paladins, Mages, Druids, Hunters, and Rogues definitely won the lottery when it comes to class halls. The environments are very well detailed, fit the class concepts perfectly, and there's a lot of life to them, with plenty of recognizable NPCs going about daily routines. They all really feel like what class halls were meant to be.

I disagree that the Death Knight class campaign is remotely better. I consider it to be basement rate storytelling where the PC goes over the line of good and evil and does something completely retarded for zero reason.

[Toppy]

I disagree that the Death Knight class campaign is remotely better. I consider it to be basement rate storytelling where the PC goes over the line of good and evil and does something completely retarded for zero reason.

Compared to the warrior campaign where you pretty much do nothing at all of importance or warrior related?

DK campaign at least relates to DK and does neat stuff.

Warrior's end game is.... freeing some raid boss that no one cares about, who still is using a seriously outdated model.

[ryudaraku]

Compared to the warrior campaign where you pretty much do nothing at all of importance or warrior related?

DK campaign at least relates to DK and does neat stuff.

Warrior's end game is.... freeing some raid boss that no one cares about, who still is using a seriously outdated model.

Doing neat stuff like "Attack Lights Hope again, you know that bastion of holy light where we got our asses handed to us" to which anyone with half a brain would say "uhh no? I know you weren't around for it the first time Bolevar but..it didn't turn well" Most of the chain is nifty (minus the bullshit about "the alliance and horde will hate us" yeah..cause Trollbane is SO fucking important to people) but the last part is a stupid stupid thing that should be rewritten to be at least skippable like the Demon Hunter one is.

[Archimtiros]

I disagree that the Death Knight class campaign is remotely better. I consider it to be basement rate storytelling where the PC goes over the line of good and evil and does something completely retarded for zero reason.

Do you have a reason for that or are you just complaining?

Keep in mind that there's a very real difference between not liking, or not agreeing with something, and it actually being bad storytelling.

Personally, I don't like the "resurrect known heroes" thing either, there are a number of characters they could have used which would have made a whole lot more sense, and it's pretty stupid that a Warrior or a Holy Priest suddenly becomes an expert in death magic. That said, the storyline itself is pretty compelling regardless. You are, by and large, dealing with members of your class, you're building a self-sufficient army, and you're doing things in a very Death Knight way - to hell with what the rest of the world says. This is a reoccuring theme for Death Knights, as they've consistently been on the outside, never anything more than barely tolerated by the other factions. The interaction with Bolvar is a cherry on top, and as I've said, could have some really interesting connotations if they pursue it.

- - - Updated - - -

Doing neat stuff like "Attack Lights Hope again, you know that bastion of holy light where we got our asses handed to us" to which anyone with half a brain would say "uhh no? I know you weren't around for it the first time Bolevar but..it didn't turn well" Most of the chain is nifty (minus the bullshit about "the alliance and horde will hate us" yeah..cause Trollbane is SO fucking important to people) but the last part is a stupid stupid thing that should be rewritten to be at least skippable like the Demon Hunter one is.

To be fair, the DK's were very much winning the first battle at Lights Hope (against the Paladins). It only ended up in a ceasefire due to the whole Mograine/Ashbringer reveal, and then turning against the Lich King.