Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Vineri]

Holy shit

How long exactly does it take to get fed up with LFD. Lets poll folks from 2009-2010.

1 week? 3 months? 6 months? a year? 2 years?

It's not like Blizzard would get instant results. Over a year or 2 people made their choice to leave. Numbers show people leaving. Since it takes time for a sub to expire, lets say they wasted no time to click it DURING WotLK, such that DURING Cataclysm, their account was already exhausted.

Until next time Kyanion =D
Good night

[Mahourai]

How long exactly does it take to get fed up with LFD. Lets poll folks from 2009-2010.

You would need to have actually done this for your assertion that people quit en masse over LFD to be compelling.

[Pann]

How long exactly does it take to get fed up with LFD. Lets poll folks from 2009-2010.

1 week? 3 months? 6 months? a year? 2 years?

It's not like Blizzard would get instant results. Over a year or 2 people made their choice to leave. Numbers show people leaving. Since it takes time for a sub to expire, lets say they wasted no time to click it DURING WotLK, such that DURING Cataclysm, their account was already exhausted.

Until next time Kyanion =D
Good night

Whilst subs are a lagging indicator for the popularity of available content it is clear to see from the fact that Legion will be the fifth expansion to feature LFD and the fourth to feature LFR that Blizzard do not believe that automatic group finding is a problem. When you couple this fact with other MMOs that launch without a group finder system end up adding one I think it is quite obvious that it is a feature that is wanted many players.

There are many compelling arguments for the addition of legacy servers but group finder ruining the game is not one of them.

[Kyanion]

Traditional MMO players are a lot more engaged with immersion and things such as instant teleports from content to content, halfway across what is supposed to be an immersive and living world, unsettles them.

Come on now, even EQ had massive teleportation spells early on in the game. I even think UO had some sort of instant travel features but I really don't remember that one very well. People wanted to get to the content they wanted to do, not spend 30 mins getting there. Sure there is a small portion of the playerbase that is 'hardcore' or 'batshit crazy' that would rather spend the 30 mins to get there and they are welcome to do so.

[Kyanion]

In the more traditional MMOs I'm thinking off the journey itself often was content, because you could be waylaid by a hostile group of players or encounter a random event or rare / treasure. Territory mattered in those games. While those games you mentioned had 'some' instant teleport spells they didn't instantly take you to the content, they took you to a close nearby city and still expect you to travel at least some distance there. Often the harder and higher-end the content was the longer the journey.

Well a couple of the ports in EQ put you right at the action but for the most part it was still saving people multiple hours of the 'journey'. I mean I get the part of traveling around and encountering what you encounter in the wild and whatever, but once was enough. I didn't need to experience the journey for the 20th time. So I was glad when summoning stones became a thing and was happy with LFD in WotLK.

[Selah]

Still refuse to pay money for content that I've cleared and is a decade out of date.

[Perkunas]

Still refuse to pay money for content that I've cleared and is a decade out of date.

The thing is you aren't being asked to. Nobody would force you to play on the Vanilla servers. I do think however this is becoming a moot point. I don't believe that we'll see Vanilla servers for a few years, honestly. I'm starting to think the only real hope lies in the potential of "Pristine Realms" and figuring out ways to foster that sort of community. I would think things like cosmetic rewards and titles would be a big enough draw on top of the community building changes they've pitched. You want a healthy population and a reason for people to abandon their current mains/servers and roll there. Nothing too drastic though as I fear people would bitch. Just a gentle nudge would be enough to spawn a new server.

[voidillusion]

You have a product, a game, wich doesnt have any lfg tool apart from a channel than more often than not gets spammed with trade crap, you need to grind far more for your professions than you do now, you need to do attunements to access some content, you need to carry some new guild member through obsolete content to be able to keep a healthy raiding roster, you need to make resistance sets, some specs cant do certain things in raids.

And yet this clunky, grindy game with useless bottlenecks keeps growing and growing, and the community thriving.

You remove all of this then implement a couple of matchmaking tools, soon the population stagnates, not much after it declines only to never see it's glory days again.

This is all my biased opinion and a bunch of unfortunate coincidences ofc.

[Deleted]

You have a product, a game, wich doesnt have any lfg tool apart from a channel than more often than not gets spammed with trade crap, you need to grind far more for your professions than you do now, you need to do attunements to access some content, you need to carry some new guild member through obsolete content to be able to keep a healthy raiding roster, you need to make resistance sets, some specs cant do certain things in raids.

And yet this clunky, grindy game with useless bottlenecks keeps growing and growing, and the community thriving.

You remove all of this then implement a couple of matchmaking tools, soon the population stagnates, not much after it declines only to never see it's glory days again.

This is all my biased opinion and a bunch of unfortunate coincidences ofc.

(disclaimer I have not played pokemon go yet - it is not out here yet. I just read quite a bit about it.)
There is this game that gets people to walk as much in a few days they have not the entire year previously. Making you dredge through the heat in the summer, is absolutely unfriendly to people that have trouble leaving the house/certain disabilites whatever. It is an extremely cut down version of kid's game that does not even allow you to battle other people. The combat is extremely simplistic even compared to the "kid game".

And yet it is insanely popular, brings people out all over the states and helps people get over social anxiety. made nintendos stock jump like 30% up yesterday...
There are so many stories about it. about people being brought together. also about negative stuff like robbers and stuff, but the positives are imo overshadowing it.

This is not really too similar to wow - but pokemon go is really inconvenient imo. and widely popular and really social.
I do not think it will last too long but the forged friendships will probably last longer.

Yes the social aspect is really important to the game. Social bonds will not rupture immediately after the thing that created it vanished, but there will be no more.
Old wow brought people together, made them socialize - new wow does not do that nearly enough imo.

I agree with you.

another very loosely related point about humans being social creatures and stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg it is about addiction but perhaps some people will agree that some inconveniances are worth it to make something more social.

[Vineri]

Well a couple of the ports in EQ put you right at the action but for the most part it was still saving people multiple hours of the 'journey'. I mean I get the part of traveling around and encountering what you encounter in the wild and whatever, but once was enough. I didn't need to experience the journey for the 20th time. So I was glad when summoning stones became a thing and was happy with LFD in WotLK.

Not even close to true with regards to EQ. You had a bind spot you would return to upon death, if you call that teleportation. You would also be absent your corpse and equipment if you chose that method to teleport. Only one bind-spot per character allowed.

Much like early WoW, if you wanted to go somewhere specific in a hurry, you would need a mage who trained in that ability to take you. Even then, it would take you to a specific "Stonehenge" spot, likely in the wilderness somewhere away from civilization.

Actually WoW introduced a really cool way to travel via flight hubs, for a small in-game fee. It was immersive and you got to fly during real time as events in-game continued to happen. Pretty cool. As with EQ, WoW had mages teleport a group. Instant teleports willy-nilly are not immersive at all. It was a big reason why I chose WoW over Warhammer when Warhammer was released, even though Warhammer was graphically superior.

Warhammer had flight hubs, but flight was instant. I thought the idea was dumb, and still do. It broke my perception of the game as a living world.

There is a point when convenience breaks immersion.

[Kyanion]

Not even close to true with regards to EQ. You had a bind spot you would return to upon death, if you call that teleportation. You would also be absent your corpse and equipment if you chose that method to teleport. Only one bind-spot per character allowed.

Yeah I guess those Wizard and druid portals NEVER HAPPENED?! Oh wait, they did. Guess what those things did. Let you skip tons of travel time. Some of them even took you to zones right in popular leveling spots. And like I said they saved people multiple hours of the 'journey'. Don't tell me that is 'not even close to true'. You can't spin it. Those portals existed as fast travel methods as well as other spells like gate which took you to your bind.

[Vineri]

Yeah I guess those Wizard and druid portals NEVER HAPPENED?! Oh wait, they did. Guess what those things did. Let you skip tons of travel time. Some of them even took you to zones right in popular leveling spots. And like I said they saved people multiple hours of the 'journey'. Don't tell me that is 'not even close to true'. You can't spin it. Those portals existed as fast travel methods as well as other spells like gate which took you to your bind.

You mean when EQ was bleeding subs? When WoW did it better at the time with real-time flight hubs? When Sony would do anything to ruin even their game for convenience? Mmm-kay then.

So you don't go on tangents, after WoW, EQ immersion went downhill.

But after a few years, WoW immersion went downhill too.

- - - Updated - - -

You have a product, a game, wich doesnt have any lfg tool apart from a channel than more often than not gets spammed with trade crap, you need to grind far more for your professions than you do now, you need to do attunements to access some content, you need to carry some new guild member through obsolete content to be able to keep a healthy raiding roster, you need to make resistance sets, some specs cant do certain things in raids.

And yet this clunky, grindy game with useless bottlenecks keeps growing and growing, and the community thriving.

You remove all of this then implement a couple of matchmaking tools, soon the population stagnates, not much after it declines only to never see it's glory days again.

This is all my biased opinion and a bunch of unfortunate coincidences ofc.

People love RPG's, inconveniences and all. It's probably no wonder why they fetch big dollars in the retro market. It's hard to find a good RPG these days, let alone a good MMORPG - an MMORPG that is still an RPG to it's core, that is.

[Kyanion]

You mean when EQ was bleeding subs? When WoW did it better at the time with real-time flight hubs? When Sony would do anything to ruin even their game for convenience? Mmm-kay then.

So you don't go on tangents, after WoW, EQ immersion went downhill.

But after a few years, WoW immersion went downhill too.

We're talking about travel mechanics that were in EQ before WoW was even around. Post-WoW EQ matters not one bit. Keep moving those goalposts buddy!

[Vineri]

We're talking about travel mechanics that were in EQ before WoW was even around. Post-WoW EQ matters not one bit. Keep moving those goalposts buddy!

The more you go on, the less evident it is that you know. Perhaps you are confusing the Plane of Knowledge with mass teleports? There was clicky portals there to take folks to difficult areas not connected to the world.

As to the main world itself, it was a rare "clicky" item that would teleport to a specific spot. Something earned, not entitled to for buying a sub. Those items were sought after, and very uncommon. People did leg work back then.

[Kyanion]

The more you go on, the less evident it is that you know. Perhaps you are confusing the Plane of Knowledge with mass teleports? There was clicky portals there to take folks to difficult areas not connected to the world.

As to the main world itself, it was a rare "clicky" item that would teleport to a specific spot. Something earned, not entitled to for buying a sub. Those items were sought after, and very uncommon. People did leg work back then.

And plane of knowledge was still out before WoW was. What I've been talking about though is that druids and wizards could transport you across multiple zones with spells to cut down on travel time and this 'journey' you keep going on about. Thanks for pointing out that Plane of Knowledge was a thing, made getting places even stupid easier.

[Vineri]

And plane of knowledge was still out before WoW was. What I've been talking about though is that druids and wizards could transport you across multiple zones with spells to cut down on travel time and this 'journey' you keep going on about. Thanks for pointing out that Plane of Knowledge was a thing, made getting places even stupid easier.

Actually what you defended was that mass transit existed prior to WoW. It existed only with the same methods WoW had at launch.

Public transit existed later via PoK, but it would not take you where you wanted to go. Mages / Druid could take you to a hub, but likely still a ways from your desired destination. It would shave time, sure, but with this method it would lead to social interactions to get there. Something WoW lost. EQ lost it too, while chasing WoW dollars.

Most places in PoK were not areas you would enter solo anyways, if you liked living.

Both games had spots to take you "near" action, but you would not get to the action, unless you first got to the spot, at which point a clickable object would, or via a portal. Examples, MC, BWL - places that exist after entering / using object, but not really connected to the physical world (Theoretically underground?). Other TBC locales followed the same suit, making dying a huge punishment, as it should be. EQ had the best RPG experience - die and your corpse and equipment is where you died. Makes you want to live. Vanilla had the best RPG experience of any WoW version of Blizzards products, a good competitor to EQ at the time.

Glad to stroll down memory lane. However each game ended up, they both each became a shell of what they used to be. An RPG void exists.

[Coombs]

Come on now, even EQ had massive teleportation spells early on in the game. I even think UO had some sort of instant travel features but I really don't remember that one very well. People wanted to get to the content they wanted to do, not spend 30 mins getting there. Sure there is a small portion of the playerbase that is 'hardcore' or 'batshit crazy' that would rather spend the 30 mins to get there and they are welcome to do so.

EQ had teleportation tied to classes and only to select areas, which you then needed to travel to get to the dungeons or camps. Instant travel isn't what people are arguing, it is sitting in a city and queuing from a menu without human interaction, porting directly to a dungeon, running it, and then being back where you were when you queued. Without ever speaking to anyone.

[deniter]

Whilst subs are a lagging indicator for the popularity of available content it is clear to see from the fact that Legion will be the fifth expansion to feature LFD and the fourth to feature LFR that Blizzard do not believe that automatic group finding is a problem. When you couple this fact with other MMOs that launch without a group finder system end up adding one I think it is quite obvious that it is a feature that is wanted many players.

There are many compelling arguments for the addition of legacy servers but group finder ruining the game is not one of them.

Other MMOs releasing w/o group finder have been designed like any other modern mmo with a group finder. It's an important tool for a gameplay, you can't deny that.

However, that's exactly the problem for any traditional mmo player; a game is designed around group finder, not the other way around. Add LFD to vanilla WoW and you ruin the game, but at the same time if you remove it from WoD/Legion the game is ruined as well.

Group finder tool works perfectly in modern WOW and similar MMOs, but the gameplay changes too much from the original idea of MMO for many old-school gamers.

Therefore you can say group finding tool indeed is one of the reasons MMOs have lost their appeal to many, many gamers.

[Coombs]

You have a product, a game, wich doesnt have any lfg tool apart from a channel than more often than not gets spammed with trade crap, you need to grind far more for your professions than you do now, you need to do attunements to access some content, you need to carry some new guild member through obsolete content to be able to keep a healthy raiding roster, you need to make resistance sets, some specs cant do certain things in raids.

And yet this clunky, grindy game with useless bottlenecks keeps growing and growing, and the community thriving.

You remove all of this then implement a couple of matchmaking tools, soon the population stagnates, not much after it declines only to never see it's glory days again.

This is all my biased opinion and a bunch of unfortunate coincidences ofc.

You want to know the secret? Remember Lord of the Rings? Or any fantasy adventure series. Adventures... They fucking suck! But overcoming hardship makes for greater highs than constant gratification. Some of my fondest memories happened while I was fighting in Iraq, and Iraq fucking sucks. Same with slamming my head against a wall trying to kill Lady Vashj, or Illidan. The time we downed those fights though was better than anything since in WoW.

Adventures today to kids are gap years where mommy and daddy pay for the kids to travel Europe with no regard for money or responsibility. Then they want a game where they get what they want when they want it, and push it aside. The highs are never as high, because you're on a roller coaster that went up 100 feet immediately and then became a 180 degree incline for the rest of the time.

[Mahourai]

However, that's exactly the problem for any traditional mmo player; a game is designed around group finder, not the other way around. Add LFD to vanilla WoW and you ruin the game,

... and, what? People would find groups quicker. Leveling dungeons would actually be populated. The game would be better - easily. There is no gameplay lost with group finder, aside from "LFM Dire Maul" and the undesirable gameplay of traveling to dungeons. Hell, if you wanted to retain that, you could eliminate the ability to teleport to dungeons and have groups auto-form via queue only, and it'd still be an improvement over trade chat recruiting.

You want to know the secret? Remember Lord of the Rings? Or any fantasy adventure series. Adventures... They fucking suck! But overcoming hardship makes for greater highs than constant gratification. Some of my fondest memories happened while I was fighting in Iraq, and Iraq fucking sucks. Same with slamming my head against a wall trying to kill Lady Vashj, or Illidan. The time we downed those fights though was better than anything since in WoW.

Adventures today to kids are gap years where mommy and daddy pay for the kids to travel Europe with no regard for money or responsibility. Then they want a game where they get what they want when they want it, and push it aside. The highs are never as high, because you're on a roller coaster that went up 100 feet immediately and then became a 180 degree incline for the rest of the time.

"Vanilla WoW is better than modern WoW because I have a complex about the generation gap". That's a novel argument I guess.