Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Emophia]

Ugh, moving damage from builders to finishers.

No thanks, I'm out.

[elfporn]

Ugh, moving damage from builders to finishers.

No thanks, I'm out.

This is amusing because finishers should do more damage than builders.....

Run through was almost not worth using at all.


We all know that removing damage from builders and buffing finishers should not work like 1:1 to .5:1.5 or 3:3 to 1:5

And if our fellows at blizzard are intelligent, they won't do it that way.

[Kalador]

The shift to finisher is good ,like @elfporn said it was almost not worth using, this promote fishing for RtB witch is shit gameplay... I think blizz is scared to buff outlaw as even the smallest buff can snowball into being too much and broken. Not defending them there, RtB is their idea and somthing that random was going to lead into balancing trouble, RtB is the kind of ability that is a nightmare to balance as it can be so bad and so powerful at the same time, i'm surpise they kept it cause it feel like old combustion as it can be SO good just out of pure luck and so shit when you don't have any, somthing they removed from mage.

They clearly know outlaw is in a bad spot dps wise. It's a spec that feels like it's either gona be op or shit tho, RTB and Blade flurry are hard to balance, even more so when they are together.

Then we have SnD, witch prty much kill the spec gameplay wise, and need to be under RtB average or every one will pick it up... RtB is cool and fun, but it's also frustrating as it's probably keeping the spec form being strong...

[Wow]

The shift to finisher is good ,like @elfporn said it was almost not worth using

Not saying buffing finishers isn't needed I question why dmg is being shifted rather just finishers buffed as the spec's dmg is in need of massive buffs. Basically the finisher buff with how they are doing it would have to be massive. Lowering ss (top dmg ability) with how much of it is the specs main dmg and the fact that it's the spec's dps is so low the finisher dmg would need to be sub like. But for some reason I don't see that happening and remember even if the artifact gains are brought to assassin/sub lvls the spec will still be bad with it's base dmg unchanged.

[Kalador]

Not saying buffing finishers isn't needed I question why dmg is being shifted rather just finishers buffed as the spec's dmg is in need of massive buffs. Basically the finisher buff with how they are doing it would have to be massive. Lowering ss (top dmg ability) with how much of it is the specs main dmg and the fact that it's the spec's dps is so low the finisher dmg would need to be sub like. But for some reason I don't see that happening and remember even if the artifact gains are brought to assassin/sub lvls the spec will still be bad with it's base dmg unchanged.

I agree with you that outlaw need a buff, but like i said in my other post RtB is a balance nightmare... I think they will buff outlaw a bit, they are just scared of buffing it too much as it seems like a really volatile spec in terms of balancing....

[JonnyBeoulve]

I agree with you that outlaw need a buff, but like i said in my other post RtB is a balance nightmare... I think they will buff outlaw a bit, they are just scared of buffing it too much as it seems like a really volatile spec in terms of balancing....

This is the biggest concern I have with Outlaw. RtB is so RNG oriented, that Blizzard will always have to take into consideration that if someone is lucky enough they will get several 3 buff and 6 buff rolls making them twice as strong.

[Tellof]

This is the biggest concern I have with Outlaw. RtB is so RNG oriented, that Blizzard will always have to take into consideration that if someone is lucky enough they will get several 3 buff and 6 buff rolls making them twice as strong.

They have the ability to tune the individual buffs in order to make cases of rolling 1 fairly even and just providing a flavor change. In cases of 2/3/6 they could also apply a diminishing return to the buffs to reduce how strong of a DPS spike it causes. Maybe instead of reducing the effectiveness they could have the duration reduced in proportion to how many buffs were rolled... 40 seconds for all 6 buffs is a hell of a long time.

Ultimately they just need to smooth out the randomness enough that it is competitive on most fights with some being really strong and some being weaker - downing a boss shouldn't come down to your Rogue having a lucky time with RTB on a fight vs. wiping ONLY because your Rogue was unlucky, and this would only be the case if the potential DPS swing positive or negative was severe.

[Wow]

This is the biggest concern I have with Outlaw. RtB is so RNG oriented, that Blizzard will always have to take into consideration that if someone is lucky enough they will get several 3 buff and 6 buff rolls making them twice as strong.

You can't balance around a 1.5% chance at something like that happening they have to just make it not happen or just balance dmg around normal rng not extreme rng.

[Kalador]

This is the biggest concern I have with Outlaw. RtB is so RNG oriented, that Blizzard will always have to take into consideration that if someone is lucky enough they will get several 3 buff and 6 buff rolls making them twice as strong.

i don't think the 6 buffs is that much of a problem, it's more that every time you buff something you have to think of what that mean under every single one of the 6 buff + every other 2x buff 3x buff possibility...

[Tellof]

You can't balance around a 1.5% chance at something like that happening they have to just make it not happen or just balance dmg around normal rng not extreme rng.

RTB in its current state isn't really "extreme" RNG, even though there is a lot. In my book "extreme" would be a 50% chance to buff you and a 50% chance to be a DPS loss with a cooldown on RTB so you're stuck with what you get. You said it yourself, 1.5%, which means in a 6 minute fight you'll get 10-11 rolls assuming you aren't fishing for double buffs or higher (because Run Through and Between the Eyes are worth using) and aren't clipping your buffs really badly, which means ~5/6 fights will not even see a 6-buff roll.... they can absolutely balance around that. In my previous post I mentioned how they could use diminishing returns on the buffs or a reduced duration to balance 2/4/6 rolls.

[Wow]

RTB in its current state isn't really "extreme" RNG,

6 buffs is 1.5% chance at happening and is extreme rng.

[Tellof]

6 buffs is 1.5% chance at happening and is extreme rng.

Did you read the whole post? Extreme RNG would mean something like 1.5% to get a buff and 98.5% for it to do nothing. That would be extreme. It's not like the 6-buff roll is the ONLY benefit to using the skill which would make it too risky to use, and if they adjust how strong the 6-buff roll is then it balances out better.

If you were playing a game of darts and the concentric rings from outside to center were valued with points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and the bulls eye is 7, and your opponent hit a bulls eye, you wouldn't complain that the game is unfair because even though it was very lucky that he hit the bullseye his points were not so unbelievably high as a result that it makes it impossible for you to win. If the bullseye was 1000 points, I would call this extreme, but all I'm saying in the previous post is that they can make it so that the 1.5% event is not game-breaking.

Everyone who thinks this is impossible to balance around is being pessimistic and ignoring how other classes can also have "extreme" RNG with things like procs, crit, etc, but because RTB is complicated (and interesting) everyone is getting all panicky.

[Kalador]

Everyone who thinks this is impossible to balance around is being pessimistic and ignoring how other classes can also have "extreme" RNG with things like procs, crit, etc, but because RTB is complicated (and interesting) everyone is getting all panicky.

I don't think we are panicky... it's hard to balance cause every buff interact differently with the spec plus there is the chance of double roll or triple roll where buff interact with each other... into that you have to account for AOE witch most of the time shift spec stats prio...

Saying it's easy to balance is wrong, you can see that they are strugling with it... the thing is, if you put every thing on the same level and nerf the 2 / 3 / 6 buff than it's gona be boring ability and we already have SnD for that ....

[EZOBOSS]

Do you think Outlaw with Slice and Dice talent is going to be viable?
Seems to me that it removes all this RNG while letting us enjoy our auto attacks rip enemy faces twice as fast.
Is it somewhere around Roll the Bones on single target, stationary (you know, Patchwerk) fights? Or is it a huge DPS loss, and meant basically to... idk, farm outside world?

It all depends on the rng really if one fight you only roll 1x RTB all fight long then SnD will probably be better, while then the next fight you get 6x RTB in the opener then SnD will be worse.

You must also remember that if we do chose to take SnD we also lose DfA which you also must take into account.

That being said SnD might provide much need stability in terms of dps, that you would rather chose lower(potential) overall for more "stable" average dps

When I simed it with BiS gear taking SnD over DfA&RtB it proved to be a ~12% dps loss

[Mafic]

The problem is that hitting Saber Slash with a cost of 50 energy and having it hit like a wet noodle doesn't make up for the fact that Run Through after these "buffs" probably will still be weak.

Right now the biggest problem that I see which is so obvious is the lack of poisons/armor pen and a very weak mastery. Mastery needs massive buff for Outlaw to be relevant AoE or single target. Shifting the damage around between finishers and builders is playing musical chairs as the Titanic goes down...pointless and a waste of time.

[broggernaut]

The problem is that hitting Saber Slash with a cost of 50 energy and having it hit like a wet noodle doesn't make up for the fact that Run Through after these "buffs" probably will still be weak.

Right now the biggest problem that I see which is so obvious is the lack of poisons/armor pen and a very weak mastery. Mastery needs massive buff for Outlaw to be relevant AoE or single target. Shifting the damage around between finishers and builders is playing musical chairs as the Titanic goes down...pointless and a waste of time.

You'll be "pleasantly" surprised to know that Fortune's Strike now buffs Main Gauche to 60% increased damage at max rank. And Greed was more than doubled.

[minteK917]

Sizable buffs all around and sable slash nerf is negligible. Outlaw might be a bit closer to assa and sub, probably not st still.

[Mafic]

You'll be "pleasantly" surprised to know that Fortune's Strike now buffs Main Gauche to 60% increased damage at max rank. And Greed was more than doubled.

That is good news as this does help a lot actually in the long run.

[XZlayeD]

These changes looks really promising! I can't wait to get home and give it a spin, and see just how much of an increase this is. I do however not understand why they effectively increased the cooldown of AR considering it's our longest cd already, and getting True Bearing is the only way to lower it besides the raid trinket.

[Sae]

Great to see so many positive changes, and the nerfs we got feel pretty negligible. The buffs mostly seem to have come in the form of artifact traits, but that'll really only be an issue for the month-and-a-bit between prepatch and launch day.