[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[stross01]

But yes it might have changed since I last tested it.

Brewmaster has been 1s global since beta MoP and through the entire alpha/beta process in Legion.

[Deleted]

Well for me "750 min GCD" means that every class can get its GCD down to 0,75 via haste just like everyone can get its GCD down to 1 right now.

But like everyone already said, they might have rolled back the changes.

[stross01]

Well for me "750 min GCD" means that every class can get its GCD down to 0,75 via haste just like everyone can get its GCD down to 1 right now.

But like everyone already said, they might have rolled back the changes.

Let me know when you think you 'experienced' this change and I'll look through my logs to verify that it was never changed.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

[keqe]

well but that is exactly what i was talking about. after the second TP BoK CD does not reset to one full turn, it continues it already startet turn and goes from 2/3 to 1.

But yes it might have changed since I last tested it.

It works just like always then. The cooldown of BoK starts at 0s mark. You cast TP at 1s mark. Second TP at 2s mark. At this point BoK CD is at 2/3, so that second TP global cooldown causes the BoK CD to show GCD as this is how WoW shows cooldowns on abilities that ends in same or less than the duration of GCD. Both the CD of BoK and global cooldown from second TP end at 3s mark.

The global cooldown is exactly 1s.

[Deleted]

Now this is a simple Log of me using TP 3 times. http: //puu. sh/pZgK3/292478a811.png. Right now I am not sure what really is happening or what is intended.
But the log dates the TPs to :28.197, :29.158, 30.104.
That would be around 0.951 GCD which is funny enough neither 1 nor the 0.91xx I would expect with 10% haste.

Logs might be inaccurate, the LUA function might be inaccurate, noone knows. But as long as we are not sure you can't claim that it is 1 second for sure either.
I do not have bloodlust right now but that might clear it up with a bigger gap between the two numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

It works just like always then. The cooldown of BoK starts at 0s mark. You cast TP at 1s mark. Second TP at 2s mark. At this point BoK CD is at 2/3, so that second TP global cooldown causes the BoK CD to show GCD as this is how WoW shows cooldowns on abilities that ends in same or less than the duration of GCD. Both the CD of BoK and global cooldown from second TP end at 3s mark.

The global cooldown is exactly 1s.

But that is what I was saying. Sometimes it does not show GCD on BoK. Sometimes it just finishes the CD normal after the second TP

[keqe]

Now this is a simple Log of me using TP 3 times. http: //puu. sh/pZgK3/292478a811.png. Right now I am not sure what really is happening or what is intended.
But the log dates the TPs to :28.197, :29.158, 30.104.
That would be around 0.951 GCD which is funny enough neither 1 nor the 0.91xx I would expect with 10% haste.

Logs might be inaccurate, the LUA function might be inaccurate, noone knows. But as long as we are not sure you can't claim that it is 1 second for sure either.
I do not have bloodlust right now but that might clear it up with a bigger gap between the two numbers.

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But that is what I was saying. Sometimes it does not show GCD on BoK. Sometimes it just finishes the CD normal after the second TP

I do also get that miniscule "advantage" in my logs. But at 32% haste it should be much, much more. So it is quite obvious it is something else than haste scaling. Most likely blizzard's lag compensation giving some slack, as it causes the global cooldown happen slightly before your cast actually goes off, depending on lag.

The BoK->TP TP and BoK showing its own CD is from the lag compensation for sure. Easy to test.

[stross01]

Now this is a simple Log of me using TP 3 times. http: //puu. sh/pZgK3/292478a811.png. Right now I am not sure what really is happening or what is intended.
But the log dates the TPs to :28.197, :29.158, 30.104.
That would be around 0.951 GCD which is funny enough neither 1 nor the 0.91xx I would expect with 10% haste.

Logs might be inaccurate, the LUA function might be inaccurate, noone knows. But as long as we are not sure you can't claim that it is 1 second for sure either.
I do not have bloodlust right now but that might clear it up with a bigger gap between the two numbers.

The script can't be inaccurate. My logs are accurate to the hundredth of a second. And I'm fairly certain I'd notice a 25% apm difference.

After further testing, the only abilities that I am able to find that do go less than 1 second Chi Burst and Crackling Jade Lightning. Not Tiger Palm, Blackout Strike, Keg Smash, Rushing Jade Wind, or Exploding Keg.

[Kappafuzius]

Hello Guys.
Im Kappafuzius, just a standard Monk that clears just Heroic. I am relativly new to Monk( half a year) and mainly WW and MW, but i i try to get informed as much as possible. English isnt my native Language but i hope u can just read what i write.

I am absolutly up 2 Date and read everything about the Legion discussion for every three speccs. i thought a while about pur new Mastery as BRM, so here are my conclusions:
I used Excell and played a bit with different variables: base Dodge and our Mastery.
If you are interested in that spreadsheet, i will try to upload it.

My Goals were to look at the Mastery and to find out if it realy just sucks.
with the spreadhseet i determined the average dodge Chance with certain base dodge and mastery values.
First i wanna show some of the results. After it i try to point out some of my thoughts about it.
Here at First the Results in a table:
I cannot link any links or pictures, so here are the urls:

(https: //postimg.org/image/5pf6qcedz/) yeah sry u need 2 delete one space.

There u can see the Average Dodge Chance for 3 base dodge values and a bunch of Masteryvalues.
Before i talk about it here is the same as a graph. there u can only see the % gain per % mastery.

(https: //postimg.org/image/4z41yrbjb/) again u need 2 delete 1 space

What u can see is that Mastery has some sort of dimishing return. the more mastery u get the less average dodge u get.

There is a second dimishing return. If your base dodge grows, the value you get from mastery gets lower. But this Value is really small. Even a 10% base dodge increases just barely affects the average dodge Chance. So your Talent choices will not really devalue the raw Masteryvalue.

The Mainproblem with Mastery seems the high dimishing return. At first Mastery is a really strong stat, but its value falls really fast. I dont know how much Mastery is it worth to gear. But my guts say that the golden Number is about 33.3% average dodge chance.

A second Mainproblem ist, that Mastery wont affect directly any Magicdmg. The only real effect of Mastery against magic dmg is the gain of attackpower and therefor the selfhealincrease. But i highly doubt that it will be worth for magic dmg.


In Summary i really like that new Mastery and it isnt nearly as bad as i thought at first. I think for brewmasters that arent progressorientated the passive Playstyle with mastery/crit seems absolutly viable for me.

[keqe]

The greatest strength about mastery is that it is reliable. Unlike elusive brew, it won't really bite your ass when it decides to. While it might be much weaker in comparison, I prefer it a lot to EB. But as a mastery it isn't completely ideal for me.

[Leblue]

I thought it was pretty clear what I was talking about with just saying "stagger" but to further clarify for those who may've found my wording confusing, the stagger dot portion does not count towards your next gift of the ox orb. Stagger the defensive aspect of pushing damage to the dot does not prevent damage counting towards your next gift of the ox.

[Deleted]

So it appears that it is only spellcasts and not physical abilities. That does however mean that i am still hoping for it to be changed, I would like a very high apm playstyle.

[Delimit]

IIRC, only certain classes/abilities can get below the GCD limit. There was a blue post about it a while back.

[Deleted]

edit: seems like i was wrong

[Tech614]

The greatest strength about mastery is that it is reliable. Unlike elusive brew, it won't really bite your ass when it decides to. While it might be much weaker in comparison, I prefer it a lot to EB. But as a mastery it isn't completely ideal for me.

It's not only better then EB, it's better then a broken mastery which just forces nerfs on us as the expansion progresses. MoP/Cata mastery was a disaster for balance. At least now they can balance around a flat stagger amount and not have to account for how high you can stack mastery.

[keqe]

that's not true, you need 25% haste since you take 25% of the base cooldown of 8s on keg smash which is 2 seconds (so 8-2=6 seconds). If you divide it by 1.33 you take a 6 seconds keg smash as your base (but it`s 8 seconds). So yeah 25% haste makes 6 sec cooldown on keg smash

You make the common mistake of thinking haste "reduces time between attacks" sort of thing. If you have 100% haste you hit 2x faster. It also means keg smash cooldown is twice as fast=4s. To get 6s you need 50% haste, because you "recharge" it 50% faster.

25% haste isn't 25% cooldown reduction

It's not only better then EB, it's better then a broken mastery which just forces nerfs on us as the expansion progresses. MoP/Cata mastery was a disaster for balance. At least now they can balance around a flat stagger amount and not have to account for how high you can stack mastery.

That is also true.

[Deleted]

You make the common mistake of thinking haste "reduces time between attacks" sort of thing. If you have 100% haste you hit 2x faster. It also means keg smash cooldown is twice as fast=4s. To get 6s you need 50% haste, because you "recharge" it 50% faster.

25% haste isn't 25% cooldown reduction

However it is also not 50% since its not linear (aka between 4 and 8 seconds must be the value between 0% and 100%).

if you want to have the CD you need to divide the BaseCD by your haste "value" (like in 27% haste means 1.27)

0% = 8 / 1 = 8 seconds
33% = 8 / 1.33 = 6 seconds
50% = 8 / 1.5 = 5.33 seconds
100%: 8 / 2 = 4 seconds


so you need 33% to get 6 seconds. (Btw confirmed ingame on top of this, just explaining the concept. Before this stross guy jumps my neck again )

[keqe]

However it is also not 50% since its not linear (aka between 4 and 8 seconds must be the value between 0% and 100%).

if you want to have the CD you need to divide the BaseCD by your haste "value" (like in 27% haste means 1.27)

0% = 8 / 1 = 8 seconds
33% = 8 / 1.33 = 6 seconds
50% = 8 / 1.5 = 5.33 seconds
100%: 8 / 2 = 4 seconds


so you need 33% to get 6 seconds. (Btw confirmed ingame on top of this, just explaining the concept. Before this stross guy jumps my neck again )

True you are correct. Did a small error there.


New build released. First tier talents got substantial healing buff (Chi Burst from 275% to 412,5% and Chi Wave from 50% to 86,7%) and tiger palm got buffed to 105% from 90%. So 5% more than it was before the nerf. Not substantial but Blackout Combo+Face Palm proc enjoys this change.

RJW also got buffed from 541% to 621%. Probably still not better than Special Delivery thanks to it being unaffected by keg smash nerf and the ludicrous amounts of brews we get.

[Deleted]

was special delivery really the go to talent instead of RJW? for me the buff to RJW seems odd, as i always thoiught it already was the strongest talent in this row and i'd rather see a buff to niuzao

[keqe]

was special delivery really the go to talent instead of RJW? for me the buff to RJW seems odd, as i always thoiught it already was the strongest talent in this row and i'd rather see a buff to niuzao

I have no real proof or testing done but considering how big of an impact BoB change gave by giving us ridiculous amounts of brew to play with and special delivery hitting like a truck, I can see it doing more damage than RJW. And at least with Blackout Combo and 10%+ haste I don't feel I have that much downtime anyway to use RJW "that much".

Kind of sucks sometimes to pick some adds without though. (and sucks to see the barrel from SD to fly to china and do nothing)

[fringemoo]

I have no real proof or testing done but considering how big of an impact BoB change gave by giving us ridiculous amounts of brew to play with and special delivery hitting like a truck, I can see it doing more damage than RJW.

So I decided to do some napkin math for row 1 (Chi Burst and friends) and row 6 (RJW and friends):

Row 1:
Chi Burst: does 412.5 ap every 30s ~ 13.75 ap/s (per target)
Eye of the Tiger: 172ap over 8s, assuming 100% uptime which is realistic ~ 21.5ap/s
Chi Wave: 86.7ap per bounce, 4 bounces to enemy every 15s ~ 23.12 ap/s

TLDR for Row 1: Chi Burst if you have 2 target or more you can hit every 30 seconds, or if you need a 'big' on heal every 30s. If you don't, chi wave is very lackluster I would go with EotT again though Chi Burst is pretty much a clear winner in any realistic fight (unless it's Brutallus)

Row 2:
Rushing Jade Wind: 69 ap/s in 8y at the cost of 1 gcd (and the graphics)
Niuzao: ?
Special Delivery: 900ap on IB/PB at 30% ~ 270ap every IB/PB

So RJW comes down to 69 ap/s - gcd / 6s ~ 51.5ap/s
* I assume here that you can always find some thing to do in that gcd, for reference I'll use Tiger Palm which is 105 ap and use RJW every 6s like clockwork.

For SD to be better than RJW you will need to use IB/PB at least every 5.24s assuming the gcd is spent in Tiger Palm, assuming you don't gain a gcd you'll need to IB/PB every 3.91s (also SD would actually need to work properly and not hit critters 40 yards from you).

There are a few caveats here, over the course of the fight if you take SD you'll probably need to use you charges when offtanking (unless you can bank exactly 3 during that period). 5.24s seems reasonable with BoB and some haste, actual energy gain / keg smash etc. calculation is need to ascertain that.

In short it's surprisingly close, if you have a 'good' level of haste and can use all the charges efficiently SD would probably win out, otherwise RJW.