[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[OrcsRLame]

I'm guessing it's because it's technically an AOE and Blizzard didn't want AOE to be too good but the damage nerf was... kinda unnecessary. Not surprising because Blizzard loves going in "TOO STRONG??? TO THE GROUND BITCHES!"



If I did mah maths right. My current attack power on live(While dead mind you with Trueshotaura. That's 6075 AP).


Wake of Ashes or Ashes to Ashes technically does around 40k but that's if I had that ability right now. I don't know what damage we do during Pre Patch and level 110. Probably doing some 100k damage or higher. Either way Blizzard nerfed WoA/Ashes to Ashes way too much.

On AoE, Ashes to Ashes was pretty retarded before. I haven't tested ret recently because I can't get another fucking holy relic to save my life, but it was absurdly strong last time I tested it. Where are people seeing this nerf to Ashes? I don't see it on the front page and there's a note that says some previously posted changes were incorrect.

Also, Crusade is going to be the most big dick thing ever now with Liadrin's Fury Unleashed and Whisper of the Nathrezim. I guarantee no one will touch a ret paladin during cooldown phase at 880+ ilvl with proper legendaries and a maxed artifact. I truly think we'll be the strongest burst dps in the game.

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To give you guys an idea of how this is gonna work at high gear levels. Crusade lasts for 27.5 seconds with a maxed artifact. You build up to 5 HP, use judgement and Potion of the Old War right as lust gets popped. You immediately use JV-Ashes-JV to ramp up. At this point you should have enough haste to be at the new GCD cap, 0.75 seconds. From this point, you basically use a TV every 1.5-2.5 seconds with judgment continuously active. Each TV hits for, (assuming Potion of the Old War works how I think it does) ~1521% weapon damage as holy. You will basically be machine gunning retard damage TVs for about 20 seconds straight. On AoE, substitute TV for DS of course.

[Chaosinciter]

So while the Judgment cleave increase is good and all, i'd really love it to actually work. Right now it's got about an abysmal success rate of cleaving to that 3rd target even with the mobs all stacked up on each other.

[Snegovik]

I dunno. With artifact we can get up to 27.5 (or 35 with perfect relic) second duration on Crusade. 50%+ haste and damage for 20+ seconds is nothing to scoff at. I really want Crusade to be good because I love the feeling of being super-powered during Wings, not just abilities hitting harder but also cooler, which is a complaint I've seen a lot of people make about the loss of Sanctified Wrath / Hammer of Wrath.

Yeh i am same way, i love being able to blow up ppl during my Wings, never liked to relay on procs asp when i am being kited and i got a short window where i can melt some1's face. Even from PvP pov new crusader looks pretty decent, not too shabby

[OrcsRLame]

And again this example shows how retarded Legendaries in Legion are. You cannot design a class with Legendaries in mind which not everybody will get. That's stupid design, nothing else.

Well, anyone that's competitive will get them. Legendaries have several layers of bad luck protection. You can't get the same one twice till you've gotten them all, and you're guaranteed to get them eventually. Maybe you won't have what you want before EN, (I actually really doubt legendaries will drop at all before EN, what with the global ilvl cap being set to 850 till then) but surely any dedicated player will have all legendaries for their class/specs before Nighthold.

[Teleros]

Just did not expect anymore buffs to Crusade. What, 56% haste and damage now?

52.5%, no?

My understand has been than it stacks up to 15 times, not 16 (ie initial cast + 15 stacks) times.

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Did you guys notice how half of the DPS classes got buffed (UH, Boomy), other half got minor nerfs with some good buffs (DH) and only Ret got overall nerfs and we weren't that high on the dmg meters to begin with. As an example our ES got nerfed to 1,100AP as it slowly falls on enemy head (aka it can be dispelled) while DH's fell irruption went to 1,200AP, instant, it also stuns target for 2 sec and if target is immune to stun, it does additional 100% dmg.

Are you Blizzard's new special snowflake class? Huh? HUH?!

No, didn't think so.

What makes you think Ret deserves better - or even equal - treatment then?

:P

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Re the ES nerf, I guess there's little reason to pick it aside from hoping you can sync it with other burst in PvP. 400% WD * 1.2 * 1.06 * 1.1 = 559.7% WD for Templar's Verdict before Judgement (let's say 30% Mastery, for 727.6% WD) if you have Final Verdict... whew.

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Maybe you won't have what you want before EN, (I actually really doubt legendaries will drop at all before EN, what with the global ilvl cap being set to 850 till then) but surely any dedicated player will have all legendaries for their class/specs before Nighthold.

I believe that Legendaries will be disabled in raids until the world firsts etc are in. There was a Blizz post about it a while back.

[Deleted]

Good job, you overreacted to an obvious wrong datamining.

my dear friend apparently the fine art of sarcasm is not something you will ever excel in.
The CS nerf may have been a wrong information but the argument I was pushing still stands true. I could easily replace CS with zeal if you wan´t an write the same sentence it would still be true. Ret is under performing on entry level already and with our traditionally abysmal scaling it won´t bet better.

[Teleros]

with our traditionally abysmal scaling it won´t bet better.

Dunno about this for Legion though.

CS, BoJ, TV, DS - these all scale off weapon damage. Wake, JV, Judgement & the Blade of Wrath DoT scale off AP.

On Live however... Censure, HoW, Exo, Judgement, ES and LH all scale off AP.

To me this says that much more of our damage will scale with weapon damage in Legion, which has always scaled faster/better than AP-based stuff. If you go for a build with a decent amount of crit then you can probably take VB instead of BoW, meaning no AP scaling from the BoW DoT; JV can be replaced by TV when DP procs if it falls that far behind, Wake is used only every 30secs at best, nobody will be taking Execution Sentence or Consecration so they don't count... to me this says that Legion Ret will scale better.

From a random WarcraftLogs report for Emerald Nightmare:

TV: 38%
CS: 15%
BoW: 7%
AA: 7%

Total: ~67% damage from WD-based attacks, not counting GBoM procs. For Live it's what, 50-55%?

[Deleted]

Dunno about this for Legion though.

CS, BoJ, TV, DS - these all scale off weapon damage. Wake, JV, Judgement & the Blade of Wrath DoT scale off AP.

On Live however... Censure, HoW, Exo, Judgement, ES and LH all scale off AP.

To me this says that much more of our damage will scale with weapon damage in Legion, which has always scaled faster/better than AP-based stuff. If you go for a build with a decent amount of crit then you can probably take VB instead of BoW, meaning no AP scaling from the BoW DoT; JV can be replaced by TV when DP procs if it falls that far behind, Wake is used only every 30secs at best, nobody will be taking Execution Sentence or Consecration so they don't count... to me this says that Legion Ret will scale better.

Yeah this is actually a scaling buff to us, so far so true. But (a big bud at this) our mastery is very limited out side of single target or limited cleave, at the same time Blizz puts mastery on nearly any piece of gear that is thrown at us (at least from what I encountered in beta blues so far). Lastest sims ( @Thete thanks for the vid ) show that mastery is even single target behind versatility...
If we now look at the much more common AE or cleave fight ... congratulation halve of your gear is worthless now.
The last point I would like to make is pretty weak but still valid: negative crit scaling on greater judgement >50%. Give it the Chaos bolt treatment and we are good but they won´t do that...

[Snegovik]

Are you Blizzard's new special snowflake class? Huh? HUH?!

No, didn't think so.

What makes you think Ret deserves better - or even equal - treatment then?

:P

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Re the ES nerf, I guess there's little reason to pick it aside from hoping you can sync it with other burst in PvP. 400% WD * 1.2 * 1.06 * 1.1 = 559.7% WD for Templar's Verdict before Judgement (let's say 30% Mastery, for 727.6% WD) if you have Final Verdict... whew.

If Storm was here, he would tell u whats up =) lol.

Yes with Mastery ES hits harder but don't forget Fell Irruption still pulls ahead since it does 100% more dmg on stun immune targets so in PVE its pretty much most of the bosses and in PvP id take 2 sec instant/stun/interrupt over dispellable 6 sec-mini burst cd

[Deleted]

So, my notes are that judgement hitting ,3 targets is peculiar. This will increase mastery value in AoE/cleave. With greater judgement is it 6 targets affected by judgement now? They keep making these baby steps, wich obviously can't fix the problem but aleviate it a tiny bit.

As for ES. Quite honestly i'd like to see it redesigned. It's so clunky to use. I have created a WA to make maximum use of it with the judgment window and as always this spell falls in the same pitfall as the whole ret spec of 2 mechanics not working together. Aim it for the judgement window everytime and it will be on cooldown for a bit before you use it. Or aim to use it on CD despite the judgement debuff. If this thing was used on CD with the judgment debuff it would be great, but the way it's CD meshes with the window is messed up. From all my tests, longer tests Final verdict actually performed better. I think in a real fight FV is just better. Especially now that TV got a little buff and ES a little nerf.

I don't know what they are thinking. They have to line-up ES with the cooldown of judgement. Otherwise it just stands as another prime example of why Legion Ret is so bad.

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They also nerfed Fury Warrior Battle Cry by a huge margin, for what it's worth. It was a big part of the CD stacking for insane burst AE damage.

They nerfed the artifact talent, not battle cry itself. It did 30% extra crit damage and now does 15%. It's a nasty nerf more for the rampages than the big bomb. But WoA got nerfed aswell so... not very far from where we were before... except we hit one more target with judgement now.

[Deleted]

So, my notes are that judgement hitting ,3 targets is peculiar. This will increase mastery value in AoE/cleave. With greater judgement is it 6 targets affected by judgement now? .

No, it's still an extra two for 5 targets in total.

[Deleted]

No, it's still an extra two for 5 targets in total.

Oh... well nevermind then. It doesn't alleviate anything. Ergh... sometimes i wish i knew what these devs are thinking.

[Deleted]

Oh... well nevermind then. It doesn't alleviate anything. Ergh... sometimes i wish i knew what these devs are thinking.

Sometimes I wonder , if they think at all.

[Celebhil]

At the rate they are going I don't get why they won't just make the old mass judgement baseline (i personally like the hammer of justice animation better than the bell dingy, bouncing hammer throw) It would technically bring the damage value of divine storm back to up you'd assume it ought to do for 3 holy power (and being our primary form of aoe dps).

It would demand still us to prioritize on focusing our damage on one particular target (and have the judgement effect hit everything around said target), which the rest of our spells constricting niche is anyway.

Would that mean redesigning the judgement talent? ya...maybe (good spot for a judgement reset mechanic to be placed?), but honestly the talent atm is so unappealing; who honestly considers getting it?

[Ulthane]

At the rate they are going I don't get why they won't just make the old mass judgement baseline (i personally like the hammer of justice animation better than the bell dingy, bouncing hammer throw) It would technically bring the damage value of divine storm back to up you'd assume it ought to do for 3 holy power (and being our primary form of aoe dps).

It would demand still us to prioritize on focusing our damage on one particular target (and have the judgement effect hit everything around said target), which the rest of our spells constricting niche is anyway.

Would that mean redesigning the judgement talent? ya...maybe (good spot for a judgement reset mechanic to be placed?), but honestly the talent atm is so unappealing; who honestly considers getting it?

This is a good way to go about it.

Judgment functioning like Mass Judge
Greater Judgment acting like an AoW instant crit proc

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@Teleros oh maybe im mistaken then.

[Wrecktangle]

nobody is attacking you, i gave you criticism on your vernacular. take it or leave it but as i said, its whatever.

You literally attacked my "vocabulary" in a laughably futile attempt to undermine me instead of debating the content of my post. You still have yet to respond to it. I'll take that lack of response as your admission of my post's validity and your failure in rebuttal.

Thanks for playing

In short mechanically Paladins FEEL(Blizzard has said to explain the feeling bad part). That's basically what you're saying.

I think you're missing a word at the end of your sentence? Did you mean to say:

"In short mechanically Paladins FEEL bad"?

What I was saying is that our talent tree looks like it was developed by the new intern fresh out of high school who's never actually played a video game, let alone an MMO or WoW, that Kaplan hired because it's his niece/nephew.

[UR1L]

Dumb idea time:

So Execution Sentence is proper shite, innit? So what if it was AoE? As a single target talent it's a bit boring anyway but with an AoE twist it would at least be a little bit more interesting.

[Kabsal]

My personal dumb idea for Execution Sentence is to (a) align its cooldown with a multiple of Judgment's and (b) snapshot its damage, including whether it's part of the Judgment window, at cast time instead of landing time. That way, you cast it during Judgment just like any other HP finisher and you can use it every N (preferably 2) windows.

I like that it's a single target ability; Consecration is heavy AoE and FV is jack of trades, so ideally ES would be heavy single-target. It would require a good amount of buffing to actually reach that, though.

[Deleted]

Dumb idea time:

So Execution Sentence is proper shite, innit? So what if it was AoE? As a single target talent it's a bit boring anyway but with an AoE twist it would at least be a little bit more interesting.

Execution is still strong before we get the Ashbringer (i.e. for the pre-patch). It may be that they're planning to buff it into usefulness for 110 later.

[Ashelorh]

I don't like the new execution sentence, the cooldown makes it very awkward to use