[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[fallenangel-succ]

Another Beta Build and nothing for us...

It really seems like Blizzard just want us out of the picture - it saddens me..

There's also the possibility that paladins are fine and maybe this patch, unlike the last 7 years, will be viable for raiding.
One can only hope.

[DanThePaladin]

There's also the possibility that paladins are fine and maybe this patch, unlike the last 7 years, will be viable for raiding.
One can only hope.

You're kidding right?

[Deleted]

I know you were answering questions, not necessarily defending/advocating AoM, but I hate AoM so I'd like to respond to these points.

My issue with these quoted points is:
(1) there are a number of mechanics that "move", e.g. the balls on Chromatic and the orbs on Elisande. Or similarly, occur sequentially. It is quite possible for people within range of you to eat a large damage event, bringing you to 75% right before that damage event reaches you, at which point it can one shot you from 75% to 0 when you would otherwise have survived.
(2) The extra HP hpals have is nice, of course, allowing us to take a bit more damage (BoSac, LoTM) than others and still survive. But by taking AoS, you are not only giving up that cushion, but actively setting your hit points significantly below those of the average raider around whose HP the encounters are tuned. It is not at all uncommon for mythic damage events on progression to do more than 75% of raiders' health. If you passively take constant ticking damage from regular ongoing damage keeping you at 75%, a large raid-threatening damage event will kill you. And it is not at all uncommon for large raid-threatening damage events to occur more often than you have Divine Protection or bubble, especially with a nerfed Unbreakable Spirit.

And finally, it just doesn't heal enough. I'll admit that pre-nerf, and pre bear mastery nerf, the huge numbers AoS put out made it tempting. But now it has trouble even doing as much healing as AoM, even just during AM.

As for stacking it with Wings: With SW (the only viable choice atm), AW is actually a fairly respectable raid CD. With HS doing much more healing in Legion than in WoD, SW-AW is quite good at stabilizing the raid on its own. Stacking your AM with the wings is giving up 2 reasonably good raid cooldowns for one super overkill cooldown. You're better off going Devo (which can also exceed the Legion values of Tranq/HTT/Revival in some circumstances) or Mercy (which can be 25-50% of a Tranq/HTT/Revival), and not stacking them with wings so you're actually useful responding to more threatening events.

I don't disagree, Devo/Mercy will the better standard options, AoS will likely just have a place when:

1. There are no sources of unpredictable damage in the fight that could kill you.
2. Healing the fight is limited by the strength of raid cooldowns.

Which comes up very rarely, the only fight matching that description that jumps to mind is Tectus.

[Ursiel]

You're kidding right?

Not trying to be confrontational really, but what's wrong with holy right now? I've been playing it on the Beta and I've enjoyed it quite a bit. Granted, I haven't done any raiding. Are they underperforming there?

[CloudedInSanity]

Another Beta Build and nothing for us...

It really seems like Blizzard just want us out of the picture - it saddens me..

Sky is not falling, stop being dramatic.

[Ursiel]

Sky is not falling, stop being dramatic.

Is there something wrong with Holy right now on the beta?

[CloudedInSanity]

Is there something wrong with Holy right now on the beta?

From an HPS standpoint no, although people will tell you there is. That being said I've been getting great numbers with Paladins across all Normal raidtesting in the past three weeks. The only thing at the moment that is really a problem is our Tank cooldown is kinda bad, and we are lacking some mobility.

Most of the people claiming Paladins are bad is because they look at bad logs. Some people also say we suck because in comparison to how we are on live, you could say we suck. On live we are 20% ahead of other classes on most fights, on Beta we are much more balanced, but still doing perfectly fine.

This is my opinion from raid testing with my guild and seeing logs of other good Paladins.

[Ursiel]

From an HPS standpoint no, although people will tell you there is. That being said I've been getting great numbers with Paladins across all Normal raidtesting in the past three weeks. The only thing at the moment that is really a problem is our Tank cooldown is kinda bad, and we are lacking some mobility.

Most of the people claiming Paladins are bad is because they look at bad logs. Some people also say we suck because in comparison to how we are on live, you could say we suck. On live we are 20% ahead of other classes on most fights, on Beta we are much more balanced, but still doing perfectly fine.

This is my opinion from raid testing with my guild and seeing logs of other good Paladins.

Ah. Thank you so much for the reply! I've been kinda worried lately because I started healing for my guild in WoD as a holy paladin and I wasn't sure how they were going to be in Legion with all the changes and everything. I've enjoyed them so far on the beta, but I haven't done any max level stuff as of yet. What do you think they could do to really make holy better?

[mcbubble]

From an HPS standpoint no <SNIP>.

To expound upon that: Beta testers have had two concerns for quite a while: Movement and Legendaries (and some have a third gripe with our artifact).

The devs haven't addressed either.

It will be interesting to see scaling with other healers once everyone aquires their legendaries and we're stuck with our silly shoulders.
Don't even get me started on movement...

Aladya already has a post on the beta forums where he flat out said that the devs are finished with our class and they'll just make ammends via hotfixes (pretty spot on):
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...93?page=17#326

[Deleted]

I just hate the fact that we are going to cap holy shock crit so fast and im afraid we are going scale under par because of that, especially with mastery being hit or miss depending on fights. It seems haste gets more value with the 4set, but im not sure if its enough to be decent.

[CloudedInSanity]

I just hate the fact that we are going to cap holy shock crit so fast and im afraid we are going scale under par because of that, especially with mastery being hit or miss depending on fights. It seems haste gets more value with the 4set, but im not sure if its enough to be decent.

We aren't going to crit cap as fast as you think with Holy Shock. With T19? Sure because Holy Shock gets 15% crit, but Mastery is really not a bad stat.

[Leefa]

We aren't going to crit cap as fast as you think with Holy Shock. With T19? Sure because Holy Shock gets 15% crit, but Mastery is really not a bad stat.

Even after the nerf to gems & enchants, we will crit cap at like 860 ilvl without the tier bonus if you have crit/mastery, crit/haste and crit/versatility pieces. The bonus is a waste and should be changed. By the time you reach Nighthold you're easily going to crit cap before even getting the tier bonus.

[Floopa]

To expound upon that: Beta testers have had two concerns for quite a while: Movement and Legendaries (and some have a third gripe with our artifact).

The devs haven't addressed either.

It will be interesting to see scaling with other healers once everyone aquires their legendaries and we're stuck with our silly shoulders.
Don't even get me started on movement...

Aladya already has a post on the beta forums where he flat out said that the devs are finished with our class and they'll just make ammends via hotfixes (pretty spot on):
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...93?page=17#326

legendary concern is real

movement concern isn't. paladins have always had bad mobility. that isnt changing

paladins are good. not as great as resto shaman/holy priests/resto druids imo, but paladins aren't HFC holy priest tier. if any healer is, it's likely to be disc.

[Dreamguard]

Even after the nerf to gems & enchants, we will crit cap at like 860 ilvl without the tier bonus if you have crit/mastery, crit/haste and crit/versatility pieces. The bonus is a waste and should be changed. By the time you reach Nighthold you're easily going to crit cap before even getting the tier bonus.

The point where HS had 100% crit during AW was a breakpoint in WoD because Avenging Wrath was up more often and more potent. We still have the similar crit breakpoint in Legion, but we're going to reach that almost immediately, especially with the 2-piece, and it's not nearly as much of a difference.

It's going to be a long time before we get to the point where HS has 100% crit chance outside of AW and crit loses a lot of it's value; even with the 2-piece. We need 42.5% crit chance for that to happen, which is 12025 crit rating without the 750 crit food.

Also, crit isn't so much more powerful than our other secondary stats that going out of our way to get that much crit will every be worth it. If you end up with that much crit, you might as well gem/enchant for mastery. This also won't be an issue later into the expansion because we won't have the same 2-piece anymore. We would need 14700 crit rating for 100% crit chance on HS without the 2-piece. I would be surprised if we ever see crit that high.

[Unir]

Stupid question - how does the Tier 19 4-pc work? It reads as though every time you get an IoL proc it has two charges rather than one. Is that right? Are the two charges on the same timer as the one charge (meaning you would have to use both fairly quickly)?

[Tomana]

paladins are good. not as great as resto shaman/holy priests/resto druids imo

I'm sorry but that's effectively means we're trash tier. Especially since other healers outclass us in everything, especially cooldowns and mobility

[Sparty]

Holy paladins are the most fun they've been in years, with a much higher skill ceiling than before.

Holy paladins will also be fine in raiding.

Design is pretty much set, but besides numbers tuning(there are still issues with spells), there wont be many changes.

The nice thing is that we have a lot more choice depending on the boss fights, and raid comps, and what we're doing. Which is fantastic.

If you have any other feedback for Hamlet/Celestalon and friends, let me know paladin frienemies.

Edit: Versatility is an undervalued stat, especially in mythic raids. Blizz is surprised more raiders havent used versatility stacking during progression.

[Deleted]

Holy paladins are the most fun they've been in years, with a much higher skill ceiling than before.

Holy paladins will also be fine in raiding.

Design is pretty much set, but besides numbers tuning(there are still issues with spells), there wont be many changes.

The nice thing is that we have a lot more choice depending on the boss fights, and raid comps, and what we're doing. Which is fantastic.

If you have any other feedback for Hamlet/Celestalon and friends, let me know paladin frienemies.

Edit: Versatility is an undervalued stat, especially in mythic raids. Blizz is surprised more raiders havent used versatility stacking during progression.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure at world 3000 paladins are viable and Blizz is surprised more raiders haven't used versatility stacking. I'm trying to not sound rude here really hard because my opinion about paladins is right now below dumpster tier.

[Dreamguard]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure at world 3000 paladins are viable and bliss is surprised more raiders haven't used versatility stacking.

I'm genuinely curious why you think Paladins won't be viable. What specifically do you think makes us so much worse than other healers? So far all of the complaints are general and theoretical, what specific situations have you run into that made us worse than other healers?

[Deleted]

I'm genuinely curious why you think Paladins won't be viable. What specifically do you think makes us so much worse than other healers? So far all of the complaints are general and theoretical, what specific situations have you run into that made us worse than other healers?

Limited in how much I can talk about this, but long story short there's not enough hps to account for lacking utility/mobility/raid cd/legendary factor. The only reason to use a paladin atm in EN is freedom and bop(and neither is useful on the last boss). I cannot give you more specifics.