Formula 1 World Championship 2016

[MCMLXXXII]

The rule is stupid an i think they should get rid of it. But the teams knows the rules. So i guess this is okay. Shame for Max though now he still misses a third spot.

[Bigbazz]

I thought it was bad form on Lewis to say "we don't have many booing" after all the fans had been booing, Lewis acts as if Rosberg doesn't even exist. Average race for me, Verstappen definitely the driver of the weekend, awesome to see Mark Webber on the podium giving the interview. Mistakes aside it seems Mclaren is getting somewhere with their car finally.

[Merkava]

Rosberg given a 10 second time penalty for the radio communication. So Verstappen takes 2nd and he goes down to 3rd. Like I said the message wasn't ok but it's still a shitty rule.

I didn't read the thread and it might have been said before, but I wonder if Mercedes thought the problem might result in a damaged engine, so they took the calculated risk, thinking that a 10 sec penalty was better then having to scrap the engine.

Mark Webber makes a (rare for him) classy move to gesture to Nico while the British fans were clearly cheering for Verstappen.

I hate safety car starts. If it's too wet to start the race, then don't start the race.

[Eleccybubb]

I thought it was bad form on Lewis to say "we don't have many booing" after all the fans had been booing, Lewis acts as if Rosberg doesn't even exist. Average race for me, Verstappen definitely the driver of the weekend, awesome to see Mark Webber on the podium giving the interview. Mistakes aside it seems Mclaren is getting somewhere with their car finally.

Tbh this is why I dislike Mercedes. It isn't a proper rivalry like Vettel and Alonso or Schumacher and Hakkinen. Like I said idc what happened booing is fucking petty and childish.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't read the thread and I might have been said before, but I wonder if Mercedes thought the problem might result in a damaged engine, so they took the calculated risk, thinking that a 10 sec penalty was better then having to scrap the engine.

Mark Webber makes a (rare for him) classy move to gesture to Nico while the British fans were clearly cheering for Verstappen.

I hate safety car starts. If it's too wet to start the race, then don't start the race.

I hate em too watching it from Club for 5 laps bored me so much I just sat on my tablet playing Hearthstone.

[Deleted]

I prefer normal races with more consumer-like cars. GT categories. Like BMW M6, 911 RSR, Corvette, FORD GT etc.
With F1 I feel very disconnected from everything that is happening. I wish other racing would get as much attention.

I agree.

It's become a technical wankfest of undercuts tire preservation and economy runs.

Wasn't enough of a punishment for Rosberg.
If it was a critical gearbox issue then had he not been coached and told how to fix/avoid the problem he would likely have lost pace so dramatically as to have been in serious trouble.

They should either have taken the 5 place grid penalty next race, same as changing the gearbox; or disqualified him.

Unless they changed the rule - but then what's the fucking point of having rules in the first place.

[Puupi]

It's become a technical wankfest of undercuts tire preservation and economy runs.

Nah, it's just 22 autistic Rolex midgets driving a taxi for two hours.

[Deleted]

Also, the Vettel move on Massa was outrageous.

5 second penaly not enough.

[Bigbazz]

Also, the Vettel move on Massa was outrageous.

5 second penaly not enough.

I disagree, his move was a failure due to the wet track and him just plaining off with no grip, it wasn't intentional that he drive him completely off like that. I also disagree Rosbergs penalty was too harsh, they had already asked permission to tell him the solution, he got penalised for the bit where they told him to skip 7th gear. But really I think these rules are a joke, I hope they scrap them.

Rosberg lost points over the situation, so it's not as if he wasn't properly punished. They should be able to tell him technical stuff if it's to stop the car breaking, it's different to telling him things for a competitive advantage.. So yeah I hope it changes.

[bladeXcrasher]

I disagree, his move was a failure due to the wet track and him just plaining off with no grip, it wasn't intentional that he drive him completely off like that. I also disagree Rosbergs penalty was too harsh, they had already asked permission to tell him the solution, he got penalised for the bit where they told him to skip 7th gear. But really I think these rules are a joke, I hope they scrap them.

Rosberg lost points over the situation, so it's not as if he wasn't properly punished. They should be able to tell him technical stuff if it's to stop the car breaking, it's different to telling him things for a competitive advantage.. So yeah I hope it changes.

I think most people would agree, unfortunately one man's pet project tends to draw out for years. The fact that he refuses to even reply to the teams is telling.

[Bigbazz]

Speaking of how technical these cars are. I just watched a stream of Stefano Castillo (Kunos Simulazioni) explaining the functions of MGU-H (H=Heat) and MGU-K (K=Kinetic) and the different harvesting modes, the engine braking and the controlling of the turbo spool. He was explaining it all from within a simulation of the Ferrari SF15 (2015 car), showing how you have to change the different harvesting modes based on charging the battery and going through what was a very substantial selection of settings. The car becoming more unstable at the rear and harder to drive when the car is harvesting more, with the software accounting for that by moving the brake bias forward to account for the harvesting braking at the rear.

Link for those interested - https://youtu.be/8YlJqwDdMpE?t=50m44s

Interesting thing though, the modern hybrid (2014+) cars have pre-programmed software within them that cause the car to automatically deliver energy from the electronic motors based on distance over a lap, so for example at Monza it's not going to waste energy on the short straight between the two Lesmo corners regardless of driver throttle, since it will automatically save it for the parabolica and main straight, so effectively the driver has a car that automatically changes brake bias and power delivery depending on what part of the lap the driver is on and which harvesting/delivery mode they are in.

I had some vague understanding but this video demonstration makes it much more clear, but for sure it shows how excessively complex these cars are. What becomes really clear is how much the drivers have to babysit all these systems and settings while racing, it's madness.. And thrown in with all that are rules that dictate the drivers have to sort this shit out for themselves when it goes wrong, it's crazy.

[Deleted]

Anyone notice how Lewis never refers to Nice by name?
Alwyas "him" or "he" when he's in the same room.
You could cut the tension in the post race room with a knife - 2 meters distance at all times no eye contact...

I think they don't like each other.

[Puupi]

I think they don't like each other.

Oh really?

[Bigbazz]

But but... Hamilton said they're getting along pretty well?

I had again a look at USA 2015 and Austria 2016. In Austin it was Rosberg that was in front the whole time going into the corner, but it was labeled as 'excellent tough driving' by Hamilton when he forcibly pushed Rosberg off the track. Even though Martin Brundle said, I quote, 'hahah he (Hamilton) didn't turn the steering wheel'. No penalty for Hamilton for forcing him off track. I suppose it has to do with his naughty playboy image and it's tolerated because playing dirty is just part of that F1 showbusiness and they don't want to upset the fans. Reverse thing in Austria 2016, Hamilton is in front on the outside and Nico is not turning the steering wheel. 'OMFG WHY IS ROSBERG NOT LETTING HAMILTON GET A FREEWIN HE'S SO MUCH WORSE AND DOESN'T EVEN DESERVE TO BE IN THE CAR'. Go figure.


Anyway, according to the English press and certain fans, Niki Lauda is a roasted earless jealous lying rat and should retire. It's really... I don't know lol. So basically Hamilton drived into the wall in Baku, lost his nerves, trashed his room and is then furious because Lauda doesn't give a shit about that playboy image. The English press starts throwing a tantrum, Lauda and Mercedess are forced to say that what happened didn't really happen.

You've manufactured the situation at Austin 2015 to be worse than it really was.



1. Hamilton did turn, you could argue not enough given that it was wet but he did turn.
2. It was under wet conditions
3. It was at the start of the race where the stewards are typically more lenient.

Either way two wrongs don't make a right

[Bigbazz]

Yeah, I call this routine 'doing a Hamilton' or 'whooops, I had oversteering'.

It's called understeer, you turn the wheel and the car goes straight because the front tyres slide. Oversteer is when the rear tyres slide and the car comes around too much. If you call this routine "doing a hamilton" then you must be new to F1.

[Puupi]

Ah yes, understeer.

But how should I call it then? I guess I could say 'look, Hamilton is again doing a Montoya!'.

Whatever as long as he isn't pulling a Maldonado.

[Bigbazz]

Ah yes, understeer.

But how should I call it then? I guess I could say 'look, Hamilton is again doing a Montoya!'.

You're missing the key differences in Austin vs Austria though.

In Austin you had Hamilton run Rosberg wide due to understeer, he turned in at the ideal point and attempted to make the corner but simply didn't have the grip, this resulted in only minor contact. Hamilton was alongside Rosberg at this point and very visible, Rosberg was able to react and avoid by driving off the track.

It was slightly dirty as a move since you could argue Hamilton could have done a better job but since it was wet and since it can be proved that Hamilton turned in at the normal point it was not deemed an offense. Ultimately since the two cars were alongside each other this is not the case of a "Divebomb" and running a car wide. Hamilton had both the position and the line into the corner, he made the turn and understeered.

In Austria you had Rosberg coming from behind in an effort to run Hamilton wide by simply not attempting to turn in for the corner, meanwhile since Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg (not alongside as in Austin) he would have been blind to the approaching car at that point, Hamilton turned in very late thus giving Rosberg masses of space but since Rosberg had not attempted to make the corner he ploughed into an unsuspecting Hamilton, in other words it was a Divebomb move from Hamiltons perspective in the car.


The two incidents are very clear, the stewards are not biased Hamilton fans, they are just seeing it as it is.

[Merkava]

You're missing the key differences in Austin vs Austria though.

In Austin you had Hamilton run Rosberg wide due to understeer, he turned in at the ideal point and attempted to make the corner but simply didn't have the grip, this resulted in only minor contact. Hamilton was alongside Rosberg at this point and very visible, Rosberg was able to react and avoid by driving off the track.

It was slightly dirty as a move since you could argue Hamilton could have done a better job but since it was wet and since it can be proved that Hamilton turned in at the normal point it was not deemed an offense. Ultimately since the two cars were alongside each other this is not the case of a "Divebomb" and running a car wide. Hamilton had both the position and the line into the corner, he made the turn and understeered.

In Austria you had Rosberg coming from behind in an effort to run Hamilton wide by simply not attempting to turn in for the corner, meanwhile since Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg (not alongside as in Austin) he would have been blind to the approaching car at that point, Hamilton turned in very late thus giving Rosberg masses of space but since Rosberg had not attempted to make the corner he ploughed into an unsuspecting Hamilton, in other words it was a Divebomb move from Hamiltons perspective in the car.


The two incidents are very clear, the stewards are not biased Hamilton fans, they are just seeing it as it is.

Without access to telemetry, you can't say that Hamilton had understeer. He certainly didn't have understeer on the exit of turn 2 in Hungary in 2014.

Hamilton was not "ahead" of Rosberg in Austria in any significant sense. He was still very much the attacker and Rosberg the defender. And again, without access to telemetry, you can't really attach motivations to any driver.

What you're missing, or not understanding, is that stewards give more leeway to a driver that squeezes someone on exit rather than entry. On exit, an attacking or defending driver on the inside can always argue that they're returning to the racing line on exit. Classic case, Andretti and Hunt.

[Bigbazz]

Without access to telemetry, you can't say that Hamilton had understeer. He certainly didn't have understeer on the exit of turn 2 in Hungary in 2014.

Hamilton was not "ahead" of Rosberg in Austria in any significant sense. He was still very much the attacker and Rosberg the defender. And again, without access to telemetry, you can't really attach motivations to any driver.

You don't need telemetry to see understeer, if he turns the wheel and his car doesn't turn then that's understeer. It's simply the front tyres sliding which can be seen easier from onboard, infact telemetry is not telling you anything more than you can see in footage. If I fired up MOTEC and had a telemetry feed of understeer you can for sure pick it out, but honestly you can see it easier by just looking at footage.

I can't comment on Hungary as I can't remember it. But in Austria we don't need telemetry to see that Hamilton was ahead, because we can see it clearly on the footage, Hamilton passed Rosberg to the outside prior to the braking zone, telemetry is not needed to see which driver is ahead and indeed it has no advantage for that. Telemetry can show us throttle/brake traces and steering angle in relation to speed, it can show g-forces etc..

If you want to see who is ahead though the best measurement is the camera footage or GPS data. The camera footage clearly shows Hamilton ahead at Austria, that's not debatable. In Austin they were side by side but Hamilton had the inside line.

What you're missing, or not understanding, is that stewards give more leeway to a driver that squeezes someone on exit rather than entry. On exit, an attacking or defending driver on the inside can always argue that they're returning to the racing line on exit. Classic case, Andretti and Hunt.

That's a fair point, and yes I did not consider that, but they were side by side at Austin throughout the whole corner so it wasn't so much the case that Hamilton was cutting him off by following the racing line, rather he went wider than you might expect as a result of understeer and they were side by side throughout, causing Rosberg to run out of road.

[Merkava]

You don't need telemetry to see understeer, if he turns the wheel and his car doesn't turn then that's understeer. It's simply the front tyres sliding which can be seen easier from onboard, infact telemetry is not telling you anything more than you can see in footage. If I fired up MOTEC and had a telemetry feed of understeer you can for sure pick it out, but honestly you can see it easier by just looking at footage.

I can't comment on Hungary as I can't remember it.
If you want to see who is ahead though the best measurement is the camera footage or GPS data. The camera footage clearly shows Hamilton ahead at Austria, that's not debatable. In Austin they were side by side but Hamilton had the inside line.



That's a fair point, and yes I did not consider that, but they were side by side at Austin throughout the whole corner so it wasn't so much the case that Hamilton was cutting him off by following the racing line, rather he went wider than you might expect as a result of understeer and they were side by side throughout, causing Rosberg to run out of road.

Hamilton was not significantly ahead in Austria. He was still the attacker. Without knowing exactly what point you're trying to reinforce by saying that Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg, and not wanting to put words in your mouth, I would just say that Hamilton obviously was not ahead enough to force the issue on corner entry. He was never ahead enough to try to beat Rosberg to the apex.

In Austin, from Lewis' onboard, I don't see a whole lot of understeer. Martin Brundle doesn't really see a whole lot either, but yea, no objections to your main point of an understeering car being more of a legitimate reason for running wide than simply not turning. Although you could also say that the understeer was a result of simply failing to slow. I think we'd agree that a driver who makes contact with another car because he understeered into them, or because he locks his brakes and slid into them, is just as much at fault as driver who makes contact by intentionally running another car wide. The difference would be that you may not penalize the first two as hard.

Here's the only footage I could find from Hungary 2014. Last lap, around 2:30

One thing that I might be inclined to ask your opinion on, based on your experience, is how easily could a driver of Lewis Hamilton's ability induce understeer if he wanted? I always hear about Schumacher's ability to turn an inherently understeering car into an oversteering one.

[Bigbazz]

Causing the car to understeer is often 100% in a drivers control when they aren't say pushing to the absolute limit like on a qualifying lap, usually it happens for a couple of reasons

1. Loss of tyre temperature, or excessive tyre temperature.. Since the drivers have spent the whole weekend practicing the track they should have a very good idea how to predict this and keep the tyres in working range, though it's not faultless, especially in adverse conditions or if the track temperature changes a lot. In other words drivers shouldn't be getting caught out by this but it does happen, the Mercedes is exceptional at keeping tyre temps in the perfect range though.

2. Pushing too hard, for example carrying maybe 1mph too much speed into the corner or perhaps getting back on the throttle very slightly too early, maybe even taking a slightly compromised line (for defending purposes). Sometimes lets say they take a corner in 4th gear which puts a lot less load on the engine + differential, with the lower revs the car won't quite hook in as hard as say 3rd gear.

But maybe on fresh tyres they can get away with 4th gear and have a stronger exit on the throttle (not to mention it'd save fuel), but as tyres wear they do it and the 4th gear causes them to understeer wide, thus on the next lap they may switch to a 3rd gear to be able to hold the line more aggressively and to get more engine braking, which would eliminate the understeer. The other option is they go slower... The optimal situation is avoiding the understeer since once the tyres are sliding to that degree they are performing below their current optimal grip levels, increasing wear + heat all the while.

In simple terms you reach the limit of grip at the front and thus you start to slide, this can be a knife edge difference but since the drivers can feel everything in the car they are extremely well tuned to this limit.. This is especially the case the Mercedes which looks to be exceptionally easy to drive. The thing is though that in order to run a driver wide they don't need to understeer, it's more likely they would simply choose to run the driver wide purposely rather than inflicting excess wear on the tyres to cause understeer.

At least in the case of a wet race you can't predict the surface grip and so loss of grip on front/rear is much less in the drivers hands, but you wouldn't be unreasonable in thinking that Hamilton intentionally allowed his car to understeer wide at Austin rather than address the problem since it was benefitial for him to maintain his course.


Edit : To make it clear, Hamilton did understeer quite clearly at Austin, but he made no real attempt to pull out of it since it could risk his position, the course of action he took was the course of action any racing driver would take.. He has to be mindful of the other cars around him and a change in flow/momentum could be risky at the start of the race.