[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Deleted]

What about this theory? and would you still enjoy the spec with this mindset..

Havoc isnt just a straight DPS that tops charts, it does average dps but where it really shines is the control over things like chaos blades, nemesis etc..

so if you like it is a controlled on demand execute phase instead of it happening only at the end of boss fights like other classes.

[the boar]

You might be getting the balanced blades buff from the spider next to it? It gives you a flat 8% dmg increase. Make sure you are not within 8 yards and is not hitting it!

You might be right though.

I Alpha I loved the First blood, fel erupt build with demonic, but it has changed a lot since then. If First blood would be viable in a rotation I would be a very happy demon killer :P

unsure if anyone else picked up on it in the next two pages, but i was testing on the big forge-guy who is not near any other dummy mob~

i wonder why nobody else is looking at first blood though? i have been abusing the 3s demonic thing in dungeon groups (it is quite a cool little quirk, shame it is unintended) and not doing too bad.
also another thing to not forget, bloodlet needs the mobs to stay alive for the dot to do the damage. if we ever have some adds to deal with quickly, might be preferable over a 10s dot. (i haven't looked at any raid testing so idk what the bosses are like, keeping myself pure and innocent)

any which way, i like that there is more than just one cookie cutter way to play! it is actually really exciting to me that there are viable talent choices all over the place! yippee!

[Deleted]

It most certainly does but what can you expect?
Raid tier sets never influence the talent tree and it's always been baseline abilities IIRC. I think a very likely situation would be something like each soul fragment absorbed reduces meta's CD by 1-2 sec or perhaps increases X stat by Y amount for Z seconds or something.

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Fel eruption for ST fights (especially against bosses)

Momentum for on demand burst dmg, ST or AoE

And to answer your question, I'd say it depends on the instance. Does the instance have many mobs with the same typing or are there many different types?


Nemesis is a flat dps increase against 1 specific type of mob. If it's on a boss you use it right away or during your burst. If it's on an add you use it just before they die in order to get as much dmg % for as long as possible. Say it's a humanoid add you just killed. You'd then be doing 40% dmg to humanoid adds for about 60 seconds. Now if it was a demon you'd be getting more synergy thanks to shattered souls. You'd get the 40% increased dmg against demons from nemesis for 60 or so seconds, but if the demon also dropped a soul fragment you'd get up to 60% dmg increased against demons for 15 seconds before it'd fall back down to 40%.

So if the instance has a lot of demons in it you definitely want to be using nemesis as you can get a ridicules boost in your dps against them.
Heck if you have the heirloom trinket that was added in WoD you'd be able to get up to a total of 70% increased dmg against demons for 10 seconds during some small periods of time.

You mean 20% right?


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[Shirofune]

20% what?


Nemesis increases dmg by 20% towards 1 type of mob for 60 sec. Killing the mob would add an additional 20% to the dmg against those types of adds, bringing it up to 40% for the remaining duration (if I understand the talent correctly).

Shattered souls increases dmg by a flat 20% for 15 seconds if the soul fragment dropped from a demon.

So if you'd use Nemesis on a demon before it died AND it dropped a soul fragment you'd have 60% dmg against demons for 15 seconds. 20% dmg against everything else for 15 seconds and after those 15 seconds you'd be back to only having the nemesis buff.

And then the WoD heirloom trinket can add another 10% against demons when it procs for 10 seconds.

No, you don't. If you kill the add with Nemesis you get the 20% bonus damage against other mobs of the same type.

You're right about Shattered Souls, though. Though you've to get the killing blow in the add for it to drop the soul. It's unreliable in raids.

[Jayman29]

Just helping you guys out a little. I put over 10 hours practice in the beta on all the talent builds I could think of last patch. FOR pve damage but it still worked well for pvp

Demon's Bite was better last patch. Demon's Blade was kind of useless (NO matter what the haste you stacked). Appetite was better as well because it would basically give free chaos strikes.

So, my build last patch was:
Blind Fury
Demonic Appetite
Felblade
Soul Rending
Fel Eruption
Demon Reborn
Chaos Blades

That build puts out the most dps. The first talent can be traded around if you don't like the eye beams

IN THE NEWEST build. Nemesis buff > Fel Eruption. I promise. I spent 5 hours testing between demon's bite and demon blades.

Demon blades is better in this patch.

So new build is

Blind
Demon's blade
Felblade
Soul Rending
Nemesis
Demon Reborn(even with the nerf)
Chaos Blades

Hope this helps, this new build has higher burst due to the buffs we received in this patch. (Nemesis)
Good Luck testing, I know I will be because I love demon's bite and i want it back XD

[Paxz19]

What is a good talent setup for the current beta build?
As of right now I am using
FM
Prepared
Bloodlet
SR
Momentum
MotG
CB

[Shirofune]

Why the fuck do they make the description so confusing then? The way it's worded makes it sound like it gives a baseline dmg increase against the type you select and if you manage to kill it, it's give an additional amount.


"
Increases damage you inflict against the target by 20% for 1 min.

When the target is slain, you will inflict 20% additional damage against all creature types matching the original target (Humanoid, Dragonkin, etc.) for the remaining duration."

Why not just change it to

"When the target is slain, you will inflict 20% damage against all creature types matching the original target (Humanoid, Dragonkin, etc.) for the remaining duration." or something tat is much easier to understand.

Are you SURE you're right? I'm pretty sure people were talking about using nemesis for single target burst phases on bosses and that wouldn't work if it works the way you say it does.

You're making me doubt at the moment. I've to log in and test, but afaik that additional didn't exist before.

[Kaedis]

"
Increases damage you inflict against the target by 20% for 1 min.

When the target is slain, you will inflict 20% additional damage against all creature types matching the original target (Humanoid, Dragonkin, etc.) for the remaining duration."

Why not just change it to

"When the target is slain, you will inflict 20% damage against all creature types matching the original target (Humanoid, Dragonkin, etc.) for the remaining duration." or something tat is much easier to understand.

Are you SURE you're right? I'm pretty sure people were talking about using nemesis for single target burst phases on bosses and that wouldn't work if it works the way you say it does.

It very definitely is only 20%, period. Is says 20% additional because it's increasing your damage to those targets by 20%. 100% (base) + 20% (additional). The only way that phrasing could add up to 40% is if you were attacking the original target (because your damage on that target is "increased by 20%", and you'd also be "inflicting 20% additional damage"), except that that target is necessarily dead.

You can't say "you will inflict 20% damage against" because that implies you doing 80% less damage. The "additional" means on top of what you normally do, hence 120% of normal. I seriously doubt if there are very many people at all (though apparently you're one of them) that read that description and honestly thought it gave the original 20% plus an additional 20% after the original target died.

(NO matter what the haste you stacked)

I'll say it again, because this gets thrown around quite a bit: contrary to popular belief, and contrary to intuition, Demon Blades doesn't really scale any better with haste than a non-Demon-Blades build. Haste affects the GCD at the same rate as your attack speed, so you're still getting in the same number of auto-attacks, and thus proc chances, per GCD. Non-Demon-Blades builds benefit in the same way, in that their generate-and-consume cycle speeds up at the same rate.

The only way in which Demon Blades scales slightly better with haste is that both of the other two options are tied to a fixed CD (Vengeful Retreat and the 15s ICD on Demonic Appetite). It's a very minor effect, though. Basically, stacking the shit out of haste isn't going to do much for the value of Demon Blades, and specing Demon Blades does almost nothing to increase the value of haste.

[Hoey]

Nemesis buff > Fel Eruption. I promise.

It was an overall nerf with the change to demon reborn. The 5% buff was to compensate so it wasn't a useless talent. Fel eruption will likely be better single target

[Deleted]

Well I am ._.
And Once the game goes live I WILL be sending blizzard a complaint / suggestion telling them they REALLY should be changing the wording on the nemesis spell.



No seriously I'm reading it again and again and it still sounds like it starts out with a flat 20% dmg increase against the target and once you kill it it adds an additional 20% against it's specific type.

but wait, does it mean it like that you do 20% against the target and once it dies the 20% also applies to every other mob, like spreading a debuff to other mobs?

Nemesis : Gives you 20% increased damage AGAINST the Target. When your Nemesis Target dies, your damage against the same type of Mobs goes up to 20% from 0% increased damage. The initial buff is towards 1 target so when he dies that 20% goes away and a new 20% comes up.
Nothing misleading in the wording. You just got confused.

[Algroda]

The wording is perfectly fine. You deal 20% increased damage to the target (not all of that type, just the one mob).

When it dies, you deal 20% additional damage to all that match for the remaining 1 minute (whatever damage you would normally do + 20%)

Note how the two lines are separated. This is because they are separate effects - the original 20% boost is to the original target which does not effect any other mobs. When it dies, you get a 20% damage increased buff. How is this unclear?

[Deleted]

............. Literally ANY class could do this. Just save your CD and boom, "On demand execute" so....no.

not really. seems you missed the point. more of a hardcore raiding idea to get around other than simply pop cooldowns.

[enchiridion]

Guys guys, its ok, the nem vs FE debate doesnt matter....bc momentum is best in that tier...

Edit: For ST and if you can use it properly given the fight

[Kaedis]

Guys guys, its ok, the nem vs FE debate doesnt matter....bc momentum is best in that tier...

By a bare sliver, according to Aggixx's sims: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

Unless you're going for world first, that's a level of balance which will let you choose whichever of the 3 you want.

[Donovan4893]

Nemesis Places a debuff on your target that makes them take 20% increased damage from you, when they die you gain a buff with the remaining duration of the debuff increasing your damage to all x with x being the same type of creature the debuff was placed on. So initially its a debuff on the target then turns into a buff on your self.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

By a bare sliver, according to Aggixx's sims: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

Unless you're going for world first, that's a level of balance which will let you choose whichever of the 3 you want.

Which is fucking spectacular. Even as someone who will never do any serious raiding again it's wonderful how close they all currently are.

[bloodkraven]

By a bare sliver, according to Aggixx's sims: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...lents/106.html

Unless you're going for world first, that's a level of balance which will let you choose whichever of the 3 you want.

Forgive my ignorance but that sim is for single target right?

[Kaedis]

Which is fucking spectacular. Even as someone who will never do any serious raiding again it's wonderful how close they all currently are.

Aye, it's rather amazing, actually. Downside is that, given Blizzard's track record, they are likely going to be nowhere near that close when Legion goes live.

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Forgive my ignorance but that sim is for single target right?

Aye, single target, 450s +- 90s, patchwerk, by the looks of the results.

[Sarkol]

Those sims automatically mean Momentum is dead, because from all i've seen, tried, and heard, it's not easy to pull off.

On another note, contrary to my downbeat post earlier, i'd like a small breakdown on the momentum spec(s). Single target plus aoe. More importantly, with animation cancelling rightly gone, do you just run away from the target to Fel Rush back in again? What happens with VR on CD? I actually love the way DH feels while running, and i'd guess questing, jumping and dashing etc, but it's the single target rotations which kill it.

I know this has been listed before, but things change all the time, and animation cancelling is gone now, so, yeah i'd appreciate it if someone could maybe lay out a single target and multi target momentum optimum build.

[Vanyali]

@Sarklol

you've never needed to animation cancel. Courtesy Kib in discord (srsly, you get goodies like this in the discord):



This works even on small bosses (you can do it on the DH hall moragg dummy). 180 turns, so yeah.. you'll just have to be competent at turning with the mouse, which most people can do. Momentum isn't that hard to pull off either - it just requires thought and buff trackers (or to eyeball your own buffs, which is more annoying but doable).

Per Pawkets, build guilds:

Recommended Builds (Beta build 22201)
Pure ST: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ter/havoc/M4u0
General: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ter/havoc/M3uz (Fel Mastery or Chaos Cleave)