[Retribution] What has Blizzard done THIS time?

[Deleted]

It's more thoughtful, because you at least have to pay attention to the judgment window. The current ret is nothing but HoW, CS, HoW, TV, repeat during AW which is close to 50% of the time.

Sure you could say it feels fast to mash those 3 buttons as hard as you can but is it really interesting to spam that shit for 50% of the fight and only otherwise use judgment and exorcism because it's better than nothing, even though they both do fuck all damage.

DS, judgement,exorcism, weaving AoE's if Final verdict, managing uptime and HP with seraphim, cooldowns on lights hamer and ES.

You're so full of it. Legion Ret is way easier to play and has less buttons. The only annoying thing is ES. Make a weak aura and tada. Legion Ret is not more difficult, it's simply clunkier. It doesn't flow as live Ret does. It's also a steamy pile because HP and the judgement debuff will never work well together because they contradict each other. So, yeah this might apeal to completely new people looking for some new cancerigenous spec, but nothing about it is any better than what live has.

[snackfeat]

...Empowered divine storm in single target situations, exorcism.

Empowered DS is one sure, but exorcism really? You are not even supposed to use that spell unless nothing else is available so 99% of the time you just ignore that proc.

[Snegovik]

I'm just annoyed that they scrapped WoD Ret. I just can't find a spec that i enjoy as much. Quite honestly, i fear getting bored and leaving. It's not a good feeling when Blizzard scraps something you dearly enjoy for no reason.

I am same way mate, i plaid every melee in game (other than WW) up to 2.2-2.4k+ in Arena and Ret is by far was/is my favorite, and only melee class i can Main and enjoy due to several things: great mobility, good passive slow, being a semi range melee, yet all of these aspects of the class are being stripped down from Ret in Legion. My only hope that DH-Havoc wont be a fail, since it looks fun with its high mobility/high dmg/low survival game play, some what reminds me of WoD Ret. I will give Dh a shot, with a hope it wont be a fail DPS class as Paladin atm on beta.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, yeah it has lost abit on the mobility front, but it's gained so much, I mean it has more selfhealing than blood DKs at times if you use the new 5 holy power finisher from talents during stun windows, you can get this up to an easy 900k healing every 30 or so seconds, with possibility for even more. Thats basically a LoH every minute btw :P That alone is huge.

And AoE? Ehm..... Zeal, Hammer (swirling one, dont recall name right now) and a okish haste of 20-25% and you have zero downtime and great cleavedmg.

I'm sorry, but this is the best that Ret has been since its iteration, I'm sorry you lost a spec you enjoyed, it happened to me with shadow priest changes in legion, but from someone coming in fresh, Retribution finally feels appealing. Melee overall feels great in legion, that said I would main a prot warrior over a ret if not for one thing, self healing :P I always liked characters with solid selfhealing and ret def has that and then some.

Not to mention I managed to get over 1.300k dmg with 3 buttons during a 6 second stun window, and thats using skills with at most a 30 second CD timer, that is pretty sick and it feels amazing.

No, Ret is great, and I hope it stays the way it is, possibly gaining some more mobility, because it is needed tbh, but Ret is far from bad, its easily one of the better specs in legion.

I believe you are speaking from PVE pov, since from PvP pov we did not lose a bit of mobility, we lost all of it, along with self healing. In rated PvP you do not hoj your KT 99% of the time, unless its a melee without trinket behind pillar losing its healer, like rogue.
You use your hoj on healer, if you stun dps, your HOJ will be dispelled or trinketed right away, so no JV for you. Also to use JV, you have to actually 1st get to the target to build up HPs, and then use JV, you have to be in melee range for that, how are u gonna do it without mobility and ppl peeling you ?

Once again, Ret maybe be "one of the better specs" in PvE, but i can guarantee you, it will not be the case in Legion's PvP, since we lack the base tool kit that other melee classes have such as :mobility, snare, utility, survival, D-cds that are not dispelable, ability to stick to KT

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Once again, Ret maybe be "one of the better specs" in PvE

I can promise you its not. ..In raid testing, everyone maxed out artifacts and same itemlevel gear set flat for the whole group...ret can't get above 20th on the DPS meter in a group of 30 players..and ontop of that holds around 230-250k output, where most other DPS are in the 350+ range stable, and the overpowered...like enhance sham, unholy DK and such are 500k+

[Snegovik]

I can promise you its not. ..In raid testing, everyone maxed out artifacts and same itemlevel gear set flat for the whole group...ret can't get above 20th on the DPS meter in a group of 30 players..and ontop of that holds around 230-250k output, where most other DPS are in the 350+ range stable, and the overpowered...like enhance sham, unholy DK and such are 500k+

Ya i bel you, ret never will be TOP dps in both PvP and PvE. A bit off topic, how are DH-Havoc doing on DPS meters on Beta ? thx in advance =)

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Ya i bel you, ret never will be TOP dps in both PvP and PvE. A bit off topic, how are DH-Havoc doing on DPS meters on Beta ? thx in advance =)

From what I remember seeing for DH..they're pretty good, usually in the top 10 each pull.

[dippinsawse]

I am same way mate, i plaid every melee in game (other than WW) up to 2.2-2.4k+ in Arena and Ret is by far was/is my favorite, and only melee class i can Main and enjoy due to several things: great mobility, good passive slow, being a semi range melee, yet all of these aspects of the class are being stripped down from Ret in Legion. My only hope that DH-Havoc wont be a fail, since it looks fun with its high mobility/high dmg/low survival game play, some what reminds me of WoD Ret. I will give Dh a shot, with a hope it wont be a fail DPS class as Paladin atm on beta.

What you like about the class are things that ret has traditionally been bad at. It's just a recent trend from people whining for those things. Ret is not supposed to be mobile and it's not supposed to have good slows. For a long time ret didn't even have a slow and was one of the only classes like that (Instead it had good defense, utility, and the ability to reliably remove slows). Having ranged damage is arguable, but one thing is for certain that it was never meant to be a class that has even half as much ranged damage as it does in WoD.

That is the problem I think many people are having here. Ret has broken away so far from what it is meant to be based on people complaining that it is of course going to annoy a lot of people now that it is being brought more in line to its intended design. People loved the theme of the class but not its playstyle so they always demanded it be given more things at the cost of what was unique about ret. It was originally more of a defensive melee, not full-retard roll face offensive burst. But of course people were like, "I want to do more damage on my own, Im melee I shouldn't care about having good utility and support abilities!" So blizzard changed it but now they are realizing it was a mistake.

I'm not saying there aren't things wrong with the current design. The HP vs Judgement thing does seem to be an issue and there are other things that should be worked on. The spec does have clunkiness and flaws that need to be addressed.

My point is that the core design of making it less mobile, more melee oriented, and less faceroll baseline offensive based (like with passive slows that have no place in the game outside of on rogues) is a good direction for the class. Many people won't like that, but in that case this is just the wrong class for you. Paladins should not play like that and it was a mistake to give them those things in the first place. Be mad that blizzard caved to those people wanting the core idea of the class to be changed, don't be mad at them for realizing the mistake and fixing it.

[Snegovik]

What you like about the class are things that ret has traditionally been bad at. It's just a recent trend from people whining for those things. Ret is not supposed to be mobile and it's not supposed to have good slows. For a long time ret didn't even have a slow and was one of the only classes like that (Instead it had good defense, utility, and the ability to reliably remove slows). Having ranged damage is arguable, but one thing is for certain that it was never meant to be a class that has even half as much ranged damage as it does in WoD.

That is the problem I think many people are having here. Ret has broken away so far from what it is meant to be based on people complaining that it is of course going to annoy a lot of people now that it is being brought more in line to its intended design. People loved the theme of the class but not its playstyle so they always demanded it be given more things at the cost of what was unique about ret. It was originally more of a defensive melee, not full-retard roll face offensive burst. But of course people were like, "I want to do more damage on my own, Im melee I shouldn't care about having good utility and support abilities!" So blizzard changed it but now they are realizing it was a mistake.

I'm not saying there aren't things wrong with the current design. The HP vs Judgement thing does seem to be an issue and there are other things that should be worked on. The spec does have clunkiness and flaws that need to be addressed.

My point is that the core design of making it less mobile, more melee oriented, and less faceroll baseline offensive based (like with passive slows that have no place in the game outside of on rogues) is a good direction for the class. Many people won't like that, but in that case this is just the wrong class for you. Paladins should not play like that and it was a mistake to give them those things in the first place. Be mad that blizzard caved to those people wanting the core idea of the class to be changed, don't be mad at them for realizing the mistake and fixing it.

I think you misunderstood me a bit =), yes i do love the current state of Retri because it has tools to be decent and fun, i also love Wrath pally even though it was different (it did not have kick, did not have perma slow, did not have so many range abilities) but it had the tools to be good aka: magic dispel without a CD, freedom would get you out of stuns, reduced CC duration from talents, a proper E4E, % of you dmg would by pass all absorbs and so on, Ret was very very different back in Wrath, yes it had a high dmg, but it also had the proper tool kit to be good. Then Cata came, and Blizzard wtf changed Ret 180 degrees making it a low sustain high healing support spec, but even then (end of cata) it had tools to be good at pvp, aka if ur partner's hp below 35% your instant FOL would crit for 80%+ making it a full HP heal, also our burst was GOOD, hence we had tools to be good. Even in MOP our healing got turned down, but out sustain was increased once again we had tools to do well. An ability to do well is part of being a "fun" class when you have all the toys to be on par with other big boys.

In legion atm, only thing we have is some what high dmg, and thats it, we lost mobility, we lost utility, we lost range; sad part other melee have higher dmg yet they also have better mobility, utility, survival as well.

Even in Vanila, Ret was crap but it had its own niche, in Legion Ret does not bring anything useful to the table that other melee can do BETTER, and no GBOM are total crap lol.

I want to see my main class to have a useful niche, for DHs its super agile-mobile-high damage-high burst dps spec, for DKs its High sustain ST/AOE dmg, high burst, good peels, decent survival, good anti-CC abilities, I can roll with it, with rogues its stealth-high cc-high burst-good survival spec i can also roll with it, with Rets its Okish dmg-thats all? See what i mean, to me playing a class that was designed to fail is not fun =). I can adapt to different versions of Ret, no problem, but Blizzard has to make a "new" Ret version to be viable by providing the necessary toolkit. In order to fit this "low mobility melee" niche Blizzard is trying to force our throats, Ret must have something more than just dmg, i mean no1 will enjoy drive a car with only 2 tiers and half engine installed, u know?

[Deleted]

Think I agree with the PvP part, at least I don't anticipate Ret doing well, unless we kill targets fast which ofc will be nerfed ASAP.

In PvE though I kinda like the new ret, just not in prepatch, that month is going to suck big time, ret simply doesn't play very well without artifact somewhat unlocked (ashes to ashes, I'm looking at you). What I am really concerned about is where we end up damagewise because we have no redeeming qualities anymore in terms of utility and it's frustrating not being able to justify bringing yourself to the raid unless you are simply better than the people you raid with.

[Dreglorg]

What is happening, i mean seriously. blanket nerfs ;(

[Snegovik]

Think I agree with the PvP part, at least I don't anticipate Ret doing well, unless we kill targets fast which ofc will be nerfed ASAP.

This is what i am afraid off, IF our dmg will be high, not OP but in a good place in Rated pvp, then it means a geared Ret can pretty much bubble + 2-3 shot a casual player (Wings/HOJ/JV/Ashes/JV) with crap gear, then the outrage will begin QQ that Rets are too OP and unstoppable in a bubble + wings, aka our dmg will be nerfed, and as a result Rets will be left with nothing.

[SpartanJet]

I think you misunderstood me a bit =), yes i do love the current state of Retri because it has tools to be decent and fun, i also love Wrath pally even though it was different (it did not have kick, did not have perma slow, did not have so many range abilities) but it had the tools to be good aka: magic dispel without a CD, freedom would get you out of stuns, reduced CC duration from talents, a proper E4E, % of you dmg would by pass all absorbs and so on, Ret was very very different back in Wrath, yes it had a high dmg, but it also had the proper tool kit to be good. Then Cata came, and Blizzard wtf changed Ret 180 degrees making it a low sustain high healing support spec, but even then (end of cata) it had tools to be good at pvp, aka if ur partner's hp below 35% your instant FOL would crit for 80%+ making it a full HP heal, also our burst was GOOD, hence we had tools to be good. Even in MOP our healing got turned down, but out sustain was increased once again we had tools to do well. An ability to do well is part of being a "fun" class when you have all the toys to be on par with other big boys.

In legion atm, only thing we have is some what high dmg, and thats it, we lost mobility, we lost utility, we lost range; sad part other melee have higher dmg yet they also have better mobility, utility, survival as well.

Even in Vanila, Ret was crap but it had its own niche, in Legion Ret does not bring anything useful to the table that other melee can do BETTER, and no GBOM are total crap lol.

I want to see my main class to have a useful niche, for DHs its super agile-mobile-high damage-high burst dps spec, for DKs its High sustain ST/AOE dmg, high burst, good peels, decent survival, good anti-CC abilities, I can roll with it, with rogues its stealth-high cc-high burst-good survival spec i can also roll with it, with Rets its Okish dmg-thats all? See what i mean, to me playing a class that was designed to fail is not fun =). I can adapt to different versions of Ret, no problem, but Blizzard has to make a "new" Ret version to be viable by providing the necessary toolkit. In order to fit this "low mobility melee" niche Blizzard is trying to force our throats, Ret must have something more than just dmg, i mean no1 will enjoy drive a car with only 2 tiers and half engine installed, u know?

Actually I feel completely different. I don't want any targeted other player utility it takes away from our main purpose: DPS. Now I know every other class has some utility as much as I hate things like Hand of Protection (and hand of sac thank god thats gone) its unfortunately a thing we have to have. I would give up all utility to be top DPS. Our "niche" should be DPS. Period.

[Snegovik]

Actually I feel completely different. I don't want any targeted other player utility it takes away from our main purpose: DPS. Now I know every other class has some utility as much as I hate things like Hand of Protection (and hand of sac thank god thats gone) its unfortunately a thing we have to have. I would give up all utility to be top DPS. Our "niche" should be DPS. Period.

In my post i didnt meant sacrifice DPS for a full toolkit that makes us viable, i simply pointed out that simply to have a high dps is not enough to be competitive, we need to have at least 1 of the additional strong suits : survival, mobility, range, cc, utility. Since if we only relay on high dmg, and won't have any other strong sides, then when dmg will get nerfed we will be left with nothing to show for.

[SpartanJet]

In my post i didnt meant sacrifice DPS for a full toolkit that makes us viable, i simply pointed out that simply to have a high dps is not enough to be competitive, we need to have at least 1 of the additional strong suits : survival, mobility, range, cc, utility. Since if we only relay on high dmg, and won't have any other strong sides, then when dmg will get nerfed we will be left with nothing to show for.

Utility is like fools gold though. The only thing that makes a dps class stand out is dps. If we get our DPS nerfed later we will be left off of raiding teams even if we have good utility.

[Snegovik]

Utility is like fools gold though. The only thing that makes a dps class stand out is dps. If we get our DPS nerfed later we will be left off of raiding teams even if we have good utility.

I think we are talking about2 different aspects of the game: PvP (myself) and PvE (you), since I dont PVE, i cant comment much about what shines there, but from PvP pov high dmg is not enough to be competitive, asp if its high dmg tired to Retribution, if u remb 1st month of WoD s1, our dmg was decent, no where as OP as Hunter's zoo + Wars dmg that lasted for entire MoP s1, and Ret underwent 3 seperate nerfs in PvP tier after 1st week, cuz our dmg was "too high" for a Ret, hence when ever Blizzard tells me "ur class Niche will be rotated around High dmg" thats a pile of bs cuz Ret will never be Top dmg in PvP =( unfortunately, hence we need get something else, i dc if its cc,utility, heals, anti cc, survival, range just something that will make us viable at high end PvP.

[dippinsawse]

I think you misunderstood me a bit =), yes i do love the current state of Retri because it has tools to be decent and fun, i also love Wrath pally even though it was different (it did not have kick, did not have perma slow, did not have so many range abilities) but it had the tools to be good aka: magic dispel without a CD, freedom would get you out of stuns, reduced CC duration from talents, a proper E4E, % of you dmg would by pass all absorbs and so on, Ret was very very different back in Wrath, yes it had a high dmg, but it also had the proper tool kit to be good. Then Cata came, and Blizzard wtf changed Ret 180 degrees making it a low sustain high healing support spec, but even then (end of cata) it had tools to be good at pvp, aka if ur partner's hp below 35% your instant FOL would crit for 80%+ making it a full HP heal, also our burst was GOOD, hence we had tools to be good. Even in MOP our healing got turned down, but out sustain was increased once again we had tools to do well. An ability to do well is part of being a "fun" class when you have all the toys to be on par with other big boys.

In legion atm, only thing we have is some what high dmg, and thats it, we lost mobility, we lost utility, we lost range; sad part other melee have higher dmg yet they also have better mobility, utility, survival as well.

Even in Vanila, Ret was crap but it had its own niche, in Legion Ret does not bring anything useful to the table that other melee can do BETTER, and no GBOM are total crap lol.

I want to see my main class to have a useful niche, for DHs its super agile-mobile-high damage-high burst dps spec, for DKs its High sustain ST/AOE dmg, high burst, good peels, decent survival, good anti-CC abilities, I can roll with it, with rogues its stealth-high cc-high burst-good survival spec i can also roll with it, with Rets its Okish dmg-thats all? See what i mean, to me playing a class that was designed to fail is not fun =). I can adapt to different versions of Ret, no problem, but Blizzard has to make a "new" Ret version to be viable by providing the necessary toolkit. In order to fit this "low mobility melee" niche Blizzard is trying to force our throats, Ret must have something more than just dmg, i mean no1 will enjoy drive a car with only 2 tiers and half engine installed, u know?

In that case I can agree! Of course everyone wants their spec to be viable and have a niche. Currently the damage sucks but there is still tuning to do. I think in legion more so than any expansion it is easier for them to balance all specs.

The thing with that right now is that legion is almost pure faceroll right now. CC almost doesn't matter, it pretty much just comes down to who does the most damage. CC is only really to slow the enemy team down, not set up a kill. With that in mind a lot of players will feel like ret sucks because currently it is under tuned, but that will almost certainly change.

As for having a niche, it is kind of debatable. I'm not going to outright say anyone who says ret doesn't have a niche is wrong, but I do disagree. Maybe it could use some work but I feel like people are overreacting. Currently Ret fits rather well into the slow but bursty defensive utility melee niche. You have tons of utility and interactions with your team, many of them being unique to ret.

* One of the strongest slows in the game for 10 seconds (cooldown could be shorter). It can be countered but there are talents to make it more reliable.
* Greater Blessings. Yes, might is kind of ass only giving like a 3% dps boost, but kings and wisdom are rather good in the meta that is forming. When it is all about damage and you are expected to run out of mana eventually as a healer, kings and wisdom will swing the game heavily in your favor over extended games
* BoP...still in the game, still good. Other dps don't have that.
* Freedom...still in the game, still good. Other dps don't have that
* Retribution is very unique, even on its own it gives ret the niche that you want to make sure you are stable when you kill his teammate, otherwise if you are sort of "racing" for kills the ret can still turn the tables and turn it into a 2v2 in situations where other teams would outright lose.
* Word of Glory is strong as hell right now. It makes ret one of if not the best dps against spread pressure, letting you heal your whole team for 900% SP
* Divine Intervention...auto survivability is a huge deal, it means no more confusion or distrust between you and your healer. There's no chance of wasting survivability cooldowns being worried that your partner might not save you. (Or you could take seal of light and have basically perma speed increase)
* Pure of Heart/Luminescence are ridiculous against certain comps. PoH single handedly gives your team favorable matchups against DK and rogue (though most rogues will probably be sub). Luminescence makes you EVEN BETTER against spread pressure teams. Luminescence + Word of Glory can heal your team for like 600k instantly and you have 2 charges.
* Blessing of Sanctuary....Maybe not as good in the meta but is still insane. One of the best dps utilities in the game. Being able to remove CC from your healer is ridiculous, you just auto win against teams who rely on CCing the healer. They would need to cross CC the ret every time just to get CC on the healer
* Hard casted off healing. While not very sustainable or reliable, it's still relevant when used in the right situations.

Ret has a lot of unique utility. I feel like people just forget everything they are used to paladins having and think that since they are losing some things that it automatically erases all of their utility. Sure some buffs could be received, especially for damage (or more likely other melee need nerfs), but to say that ret's tools are so limited and weak that they don't have a niche, I just can't agree.

[Teleros]

*Snip*

You're lucky Storm isn't able to comment right now :P ...

[Snegovik]

-snip-

Yeh I agree that "niche" is different to each of the individuals, to some its a Support, healing, raising the moral. For me personally, its bashing skulls of my enemies on the battle field, planting terror in the hearts of the sinful souls, and who ever is left scrumbling after the bloodshed a true Retribution, who is the judge and the executioner in one, will cut out their hearts as people are dying and the light is leaving their eyes forever and with the last moment with the horror painted on their faces, they can see their bloody-beating heart. So ya the niche is purely of an opinion.

The utility you mentioned once again, only good from PVE pov, from PvP they are worthless or even better question why bring a Ret to an RBG when you get get Hpal and a real dps you know? All those utilities in Arena can be dispelled/ss/mimicked and used against you. Good players will make sure you don;t get to use ur bubble for more than 1 global, so all our major defensive abilities are worthless cuz they can be dispelled.

Same goes for freedom

in 2v2 Ret is pretty weak as a DPS =) class, as Ret you don't want to be 2v2 usually, asp if ur Bubble/Wings are down.

WOG is not that great, JV is better due to goes with with DP, also with Crusader as well as burst vs stunned targets. Besides, you will have to spend HPs to cast it and once again in Arena WoG's aoe is almost useless because you are most likely to run with a range dps (hunter, mage, ua) and a healer, your other 2 teamates will be outside of ur melee range, since if all 3 of you stack, it means u let urself get 3x cced by another team aka fear/shock wave/ shadow fury/ ROF, Shammies' totems etc.

In RBGs WOG is not enough to bring a Ret because Ret does not provide enough aoe pressure or CC or utility like Smoke Bomb, or War's shouts or Mass DG to make it worth bringing Ret over a caster, asp cuz Ret was not designed to top dmg vs Boomies, Locks, Shadow, Enh, Frost since those Specs have the Real AOE pressure, so why bring Ret for a 2 charge tiny AOE heal ?

If you pick DI, means you give up the only sprint you have, means u will be kited and killed or kited and never being able to finish ur KT

Luminescence/Pure Heart has a 10 yard range, too small to be relevant, since most Ret comps are not 2x melee and even then 1 of you getting peeled hard most of the time.

Blessing of Sanc is nice, but thats ONLY real utility we have given we can not peel any dps of our healers unlike DK, Rogues, Wars, Monks, Ferals can. So one good utility spell does not make up for everything else that is amiss.

No1 in their straight mind will let you hard care in 3s arena =) cuz if u get kicked and they hard swap to you while ur healer is cced, u are dead cuz no bubble, you have no idea how many Silly Rets i killed myself in Arena who thought it was a good idea to hard cast heals in my face =)

Yes Ret does have a lot of utility that is Unique, because it is only viable in PvE and border line worthless in PvP =) unlike other melee who bring actually useful utility/ST and AOE dmg to the table, while Ret brings only Burst and thats about it, which is easy to counter since are very vulnerable to cc and now to being kited =)

Don't get me wrong, from PvE pov Ret brings a lot to the table, but from high end Rated PvP, Ret is worthless unfortunately. As i like to bring my favorite example that Paladin is the ONLY dps class that never got to semi finals or above @ blizzcon in entire WoW's history

- - - Updated - - -

You're lucky Storm isn't able to comment right now :P ...

Well I can too bring forth the proper reasoning just in a much subtle/nicer manner =)

[Taeldorian]

@Nemmar I get the argument for Legion ret, but WoD ret was not any better in terms of fun. Subjective, but still. We did decent damage sure, but the *hit this whenever it lights up!* playstyle was extremely boring. It was hardly random, EmpDS was random but nothing was really interactive, not in the way your describing anyway.

I didnt dislike WoD ret, but it was extremely boring. We had a flat standard rotation and if something lit up you press it. It really never got more complicated then that.

If Im gonna compare the two, Id obviously take WoD ret over Legion ret. We had more mobility and our toolkit was pretty large. I also love bopping people to remove debuffs when called for. I decided to make paladin my main alt and put my shaman back as my main because enhance is insane and I just dislike how much we lost.

[Tijuana]

Alright all..this here is my take on ret after having played it on the PTR for a month or so and maining the spec since 2.9 drop on live at the end of TBC when they retooled us and prot from using int and spellpower into the use of strength and attackpower.. So anyways, without further adue..here we go folks.

l
l

Blizzard's whipping bitch since end of Wrath going forward..coming up on 8 years and a 4th xpac of being a joke. Gotta love Blizzard's plans for us..oh wait they havent had one of those in nearly a century. They basically have turned us into a worse arms warrior with a blue rage bar with how judgment and our horrible mastery change works now..it might aswell be Co-Smash with a different name....

We get no cleave whatsoever outside of divine storm, with seal of the righteous, and hammer of righteousness removed.. So our only option is a 3 GCD wait to even use this one AoE option and zero on demand multi-target with what one whole attack we have hits for shit nothing like everything else we have besides TV, partway in thanks to this "single target only now, lol" joke mastery swap Blizz gave us so we have this huge step backward as a spec to return to the days players pissed and whined about us, and players did the same of the playstyle of being "all burst, nothing else" that they've tried to divert us from since Wrath's end when we were given Holy Power to "solve this issue" that turned us into a plate rogue..

Our talent choices are the exact opposite of Blizzard's claimed intention of "you can pick which you want to suit your playstyle" when almost every tier of damage abilities (15-30-60-100) has two single target choices and a single AoE focused choice that we're going to have to constantly be shifting back and forth from everytime a fight calls for any kind of cleave, at the cost of what single target ability or quality of life buff we previously had. They took us from 6 attacks and 2 finishers to 3 and 2..flash of light heals for practically nothing and our quick, on-demand survivability self healing and damage mitigation (divine protection) is gone..

We somehow retained this setup we have in WoD of "You suck shit outside of this certain time span" that is our current "Avenging Wrath up for our damage to be even slightly noticeable" and how judgment will work to do the same. "Was the cooldown up so you could put up your debuff and do actual damage?"..the two are practically the same, if it wasnt available you get to be mediocure til it is. PvP target swapping will be bottlenecked by judgment debuff to have a mastery whatsoever as you get to open-up on one target just to be shit the moment you need to switch to his buddy until judgment is off CD.

Our gap closing is now abysmal, with the most consistant speed boosts we had in Long Arm and Pursuit gone now... And last, as a player who is quite keen on the "lore" feel of a class' play that makes them "feel" like their class from a fantasy perspective..we've lost all but everything that made us actually feel like this spell wielding, crusader warrior, hero of might and magic that we once were..and just might aswell be an arms warrior.

And best yet..we went from 17 spells between attacks, raid utility and mitigation..down to 8. Execution sentence, Exorcism, Hammer of the Righteous, Hammer of Wrath, Emancipation, Blessing of Sac, WoG, Divine Protection...all gone, 9 spells, gone with 2 of them technically still existing, but needing to be talented into to have as part of our toolbox again. If you want to get picky with things it would be 10 with the lose of our Seals system..and even a lose of a quality of life aspect, that being TV's chance on hit to empower our next Divine Storm that it deals additional damage.

All we have left is Wings, LoH, Bubble, CS, Judgment, TV, DS, and a new spell given to us, Blade of Wrath. ..So all of 8 surviveability, "utility" and DPS spells remain to simplify our spec from its days of feeling like a true hybrid and mix of this caster melee that a paladin should be, calling on the Light to aid us in combat.

So now we just get to be this simplified, boring spec, all because having this toolbox of spells, situational as they may be, and needing to be understood when and how to use them to get benifit and gains out of them makes players licking Windex off the windows scared, and cry out for Blizzard to hold their hand and make it all better.

Somehow I feel like I'm not even my class/spec anymore.. I wonder why? Any ideas?

I mean I get it that maybe you wanted to vent but, if you want blizzard to read your forum post, you might try putting on a blizzard forum. Just sayin...

Also, I have been playing Ret as long as you claim to have, and I assure you I have not felt worthless for 8 years. Ret in WoD has been in a pretty good place, and capable of topping any meter without a mage in it.