[Retribution] What has Blizzard done THIS time?

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Actually I feel completely different. I don't want any targeted other player utility it takes away from our main purpose: DPS. Now I know every other class has some utility as much as I hate things like Hand of Protection (and hand of sac thank god thats gone) its unfortunately a thing we have to have. I would give up all utility to be top DPS. Our "niche" should be DPS. Period.

But at the end of the day..we are a hybrid through and through. ..We can be everything across the board of spec types, outside of being a full on caster the way druids can to play all 4 aspect/roles there is to have. ..So what I'm getting at is that as a full on hybrid that was our redeeming quality, our utilities and benefits we brought to the raid, while also having acceptable levels of DPS. ..Now its just gone and we can't even bring the numbers to justify our wasted spot in raid that more likely than not we are going to be, aside from the one of us that MAYBE gets a spot just to be the vanilla/TBC pre 2.9 patch drop..buff bitch.

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I mean I get it that maybe you wanted to vent but, if you want blizzard to read your forum post, you might try putting on a blizzard forum. Just sayin...

Also, I have been playing Ret as long as you claim to have, and I assure you I have not felt worthless for 8 years. Ret in WoD has been in a pretty good place, and capable of topping any meter without a mage in it.

I will give you that, we weren't all too completely awful in WoD..its the best honestly we have been since Wrath..but still, I find it mildly irritating to be in my 740 ilvl, but only a 730 sword and 725 drinking horn..to only pull 105-110k, and be so reliant on the fact I have 3 uses of Avenging Wrath to be acceptable damage...but before this in BRF, and Highmaul we were just shit, and I'm sure you can agree, that it wasn't till HFC and our 2p / 4p bonuses, both damage and charges wise that we finally began to show hope of being an assistance and not a burden of lacking damage.

[Deleted]

We get no cleave whatsoever outside of divine storm, with seal of the righteous, and hammer of righteousness removed

second sentence, already wrong.

look at your talents. more than ever the ret can excel at aoe.

consecrate, hammer/zeal, and judgement hitting up to 5 targets.

its not even life, you didnt test a shit, if you say this.

also every class gets a significant reduce in skills and aoe and utility.


i personally like the new ret with the option to either spec full st dps, full aoe dps, or a mixture. it cant get better, since we can just PICK what we want to do.

i donno what all the complaints are about.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

second sentence, already wrong.

look at your talents. more than ever the ret can excel at aoe.

consecrate, hammer/zeal, and judgement hitting up to 5 targets.

its not even life, you didnt test a shit, if you say this.

also every class gets a significant reduce in skills and aoe and utility.


i personally like the new ret with the option to either spec full st dps, full aoe dps, or a mixture. it cant get better, since we can just PICK what we want to do.

i donno what all the complaints are about.

...You obviously missed the point of the post, that being what are baseline and what is part of our toolkit, not reliant on having to spec and give up what talents we WANT to have, which is what the new talent setup was claimed by Blizzard to give players. ..Instead, no, as you yourself even said..to get one side of the spectrum or the other we have to continue doing EXACTLY what we are currently doing on live that they hate so much and want to get rid of. Boohoo "pick whichever is best and go with that, no need to choice cause this one is best for this situation".

...Yea, glad to see going into a single target or AoE fight I will be doing EXACTLY this, and never going into the fight with "whichever I want, they all work, yea!" like Blizzard has claimed. ..Nothing says "choice" like going into an AoE heavy fight and using the talent you WANT to use, that is single target heavy, or shifts some spell in a way you enjoy having the benefits of..then getting to watch your damage suffer or lose your benefit to your group's betterment and the boss dying faster, or being simpler to handle..

All this because you chose the one you enjoy the most, and otherwise your class severely lacks this aspect to bring to a fight to handle the situation by being flawed in design

[Teleros]

second sentence, already wrong.

look at your talents. more than ever the ret can excel at aoe.

consecrate, hammer/zeal, and judgement hitting up to 5 targets.

I agree that he's exaggerating, but the problem is that the basic Ret toolkit has very little AE damage in it beyond Divine Storm. For talents... if you prefer tFoJ (or if it just results in bigger numbers), then that means no Zeal or Greater Judgement. Divine Hammers I... honestly can't see being taken much, as burst damage is usually preferred, especially amongst Rets. Consecration is a bit of a joke too.

i personally like the new ret with the option to either spec full st dps, full aoe dps, or a mixture. it cant get better, since we can just PICK what we want to do.

Hellfire Assault: go full AE spec.
Zakuun: go full ST spec.
Archimonde: ???
Auction House: Thanks for all the money for respec books !

If you go full ST on Archimonde, your AE damage suffers, and vice versa. It's not like the choice between ES or LH on Live servers - you have three whole rows of ST/AE/mixed talents, which is frankly absurd.

Excluding the L100 talents on Live, if I want to do ST DPS, I swap to Seal of Truth, and push my buttons in a different order, and vice versa for when I want to do AE DPS - as you say, "we can just PICK what we want to do".

In Legion, I have to commit to one or the other before the fight, only change 1 button push in the fight (TV or DS, hard choice that...), and cannot effectively do both, because of the new design.

On the other hand, if I play an Arms warrior, I simply push different buttons to switch from ST to AE DPS and back. Maybe I pick Ravager as my L100 talent too (note I've no idea how competitive these things are for Arms in PvE). But I can quite easily do a full run through HFC (or wherever) and not have to swap talents due to choosing between ST and AE damage.

TL;DR version: Ret design sucks.

[Snegovik]

second sentence, already wrong.

look at your talents. more than ever the ret can excel at aoe.

consecrate, hammer/zeal, and judgement hitting up to 5 targets.

its not even life, you didnt test a shit, if you say this.

also every class gets a significant reduce in skills and aoe and utility.


i personally like the new ret with the option to either spec full st dps, full aoe dps, or a mixture. it cant get better, since we can just PICK what we want to do.

i donno what all the complaints are about.

Well let me bring you few examples why our aoe is still crap
Concentration: If you every plaid a BG or RBG, ud know ppl are spread out all over the battle field and do not stack ontop of you asp at Higher rating, and they can simply walk out from ur concetration. Also we have to give up our ST pressure for AOE and the way you score kills in rated pvp most of the time is ST burst since concentration is not nearly enough to out dps enemy healing.
Zeal/hammer are both 10 yard range? Good luck hitting entire RBG team or even 3s or 2s Arena team with that
Judgment, ok up to 5 targets what about other 4-5 target? Besides judgement is not a very strong aoe compared to other classes (DK, DH, War, UA, Shadow, Boomy, Fire mage?, and others)
Yes every class did get reduced in abilities, but they still have the necessary tool kit to be viable unlike Ret, only they have high dmg than us, but also better mobility, cc, defensive cds or self heals, utility and AOE aka War/Rogue/DK/DH/WW/Enh/Feral so pretty much every melee other than Ret
If you like a Legion Ret, it is your opinion and every1 can respect here another person’s opinion, but it is not the same as stating “it cant get better” which is not true, there are plenty fields where Ret must get better in order to be simply competitive and on par with others, I am not even saying top dog.

[Deleted]

@Nemmar I get the argument for Legion ret, but WoD ret was not any better in terms of fun. Subjective, but still. We did decent damage sure, but the *hit this whenever it lights up!* playstyle was extremely boring. It was hardly random, EmpDS was random but nothing was really interactive, not in the way your describing anyway.

I didnt dislike WoD ret, but it was extremely boring. We had a flat standard rotation and if something lit up you press it. It really never got more complicated then that.

If Im gonna compare the two, Id obviously take WoD ret over Legion ret. We had more mobility and our toolkit was pretty large. I also love bopping people to remove debuffs when called for. I decided to make paladin my main alt and put my shaman back as my main because enhance is insane and I just dislike how much we lost.

Well, its my opinion, but i loved WoD Ret and would play it for many years more. Sure, it could be improved. But it didnt need a redesign.

Also, pressing the shiny button when it light up was not always the right thing to do. WoW players always seem to think that if its shining, they must press it asap. With Ret it wasnt the case because it only affected spenders. Your priority was still the generators until your HP built up. By doing this, you also delayed the use of the proc and increased the likelyhood of getting another proc after you use it. It was a bit of skill and good decision making that was rewarded and that was lost with the new Ret.
I basically liked the quick decision making and the rewards from that versus those who don't make the right decisions. In Legion, this aspect is broken by the Judgment system. No longer is it just the HP but the judgment system wich works complete opposite of it. Makes your rewarding experience from live now no longer rewarding as everything is aimed to be used in the judgment window and not on the most efficient way possible (you are still as efficient as you can, but its no longer tight like it used to be. Especially judgment no longer generating HP and beeing basically a GDC that gets in the way of effective cooldown usage on generators.

Alas, that is my opinion. WoD rewards skill. If you were just pressing the shiny button as it came up, you weren't playing it as you should have. I also loved how this delay of proc usage allowed you to plan its usage. Getting it to cleave on an add or have an EDS as a group spawns. It required planning aswell. It was quite enjoyable to me.

The new DP can't be used in the same way as it's constrained to the judgment window. It's all very sad and restricted.

[Deleted]

But at the end of the day..we are a hybrid through and through. ..We can be everything across the board of spec types, outside of being a full on caster the way druids can to play all 4 aspect/roles there is to have. ..So what I'm getting at is that as a full on hybrid that was our redeeming quality, our utilities and benefits we brought to the raid, while also having acceptable levels of DPS. ..Now its just gone and we can't even bring the numbers to justify our wasted spot in raid that more likely than not we are going to be, aside from the one of us that MAYBE gets a spot just to be the vanilla/TBC pre 2.9 patch drop..buff bitch.

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I will give you that, we weren't all too completely awful in WoD..its the best honestly we have been since Wrath..but still, I find it mildly irritating to be in my 740 ilvl, but only a 730 sword and 725 drinking horn..to only pull 105-110k, and be so reliant on the fact I have 3 uses of Avenging Wrath to be acceptable damage...but before this in BRF, and Highmaul we were just shit, and I'm sure you can agree, that it wasn't till HFC and our 2p / 4p bonuses, both damage and charges wise that we finally began to show hope of being an assistance and not a burden of lacking damage.

BRF 4-set ret played properly was very able and capable.

Often times when getting enough procs it was the AoE king, except enha shaman if you had one obv.

WoD ret in all honesty, is decent.

Regarding the future though, yeah... looks interesting, time will tell.

[dippinsawse]

Yeh I agree that "niche" is different to each of the individuals, to some its a Support, healing, raising the moral. For me personally, its bashing skulls of my enemies on the battle field, planting terror in the hearts of the sinful souls, and who ever is left scrumbling after the bloodshed a true Retribution, who is the judge and the executioner in one, will cut out their hearts as people are dying and the light is leaving their eyes forever and with the last moment with the horror painted on their faces, they can see their bloody-beating heart. So ya the niche is purely of an opinion.

The utility you mentioned once again, only good from PVE pov, from PvP they are worthless or even better question why bring a Ret to an RBG when you get get Hpal and a real dps you know? All those utilities in Arena can be dispelled/ss/mimicked and used against you. Good players will make sure you don;t get to use ur bubble for more than 1 global, so all our major defensive abilities are worthless cuz they can be dispelled.

Same goes for freedom

in 2v2 Ret is pretty weak as a DPS =) class, as Ret you don't want to be 2v2 usually, asp if ur Bubble/Wings are down.

WOG is not that great, JV is better due to goes with with DP, also with Crusader as well as burst vs stunned targets. Besides, you will have to spend HPs to cast it and once again in Arena WoG's aoe is almost useless because you are most likely to run with a range dps (hunter, mage, ua) and a healer, your other 2 teamates will be outside of ur melee range, since if all 3 of you stack, it means u let urself get 3x cced by another team aka fear/shock wave/ shadow fury/ ROF, Shammies' totems etc.

In RBGs WOG is not enough to bring a Ret because Ret does not provide enough aoe pressure or CC or utility like Smoke Bomb, or War's shouts or Mass DG to make it worth bringing Ret over a caster, asp cuz Ret was not designed to top dmg vs Boomies, Locks, Shadow, Enh, Frost since those Specs have the Real AOE pressure, so why bring Ret for a 2 charge tiny AOE heal ?

If you pick DI, means you give up the only sprint you have, means u will be kited and killed or kited and never being able to finish ur KT

Luminescence/Pure Heart has a 10 yard range, too small to be relevant, since most Ret comps are not 2x melee and even then 1 of you getting peeled hard most of the time.

Blessing of Sanc is nice, but thats ONLY real utility we have given we can not peel any dps of our healers unlike DK, Rogues, Wars, Monks, Ferals can. So one good utility spell does not make up for everything else that is amiss.

No1 in their straight mind will let you hard care in 3s arena =) cuz if u get kicked and they hard swap to you while ur healer is cced, u are dead cuz no bubble, you have no idea how many Silly Rets i killed myself in Arena who thought it was a good idea to hard cast heals in my face =)

Yes Ret does have a lot of utility that is Unique, because it is only viable in PvE and border line worthless in PvP =) unlike other melee who bring actually useful utility/ST and AOE dmg to the table, while Ret brings only Burst and thats about it, which is easy to counter since are very vulnerable to cc and now to being kited =)

Don't get me wrong, from PvE pov Ret brings a lot to the table, but from high end Rated PvP, Ret is worthless unfortunately. As i like to bring my favorite example that Paladin is the ONLY dps class that never got to semi finals or above @ blizzcon in entire WoW's history

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Well I can too bring forth the proper reasoning just in a much subtle/nicer manner =)

A lot of what you say is an issue of balance though, not design. They are currently tweaking a lot of things, especially what can and can't be dispelled. Damage is also way too important right now and currently ret is obviously not on the level of other classes which is 100% going to change to some degree. You can't say they don't fit a niche when they have all those tools, it's just that some of the tools are under valued and under tuned.

WOG is very good right now! If you want a ret for that, like I said against spread pressure teams, that is incredibly strong. The range is annoying but it doesn't really matter if you use it correctly, it's like spirit link totem. If your team is playing defensively then it's strong, uncounterable healing from your dps. If you're taking rot damage and need to stabilize you don't care about afking on the enemy away from your team anyway.

JV is more of a solo player tool...it won't help you survive when you are being focused in 3v3 (you'll be CC'd). It's honestly not a very well designed ability, why would you need healing when you are trying to burst someone in a stun? It's a duel skill, not for arena.

I don't really give a shit about RBG's so I won't really comment on how Ret is there. You are probably right that ret sucks there. But at the same time RBG's will never be balanced unless they tune the stat profiles separate in BG's from arena so unless they do that I think it's kind of silly to be upset about. Not to mention Retribution (the proc on death, not spec :P) will probably be pretty meaningful in RBG's and could maybe make up for some of that.

DI vs mobility options is a choice for sure. It will depend more on skill and matchup but also...to say that you will get kited forever if you don't take divine steed is pretty crazy to me, divine steed won't even stop you from getting kited reliably. IF that issue exists then paladins will still have it no matter what talent you take there. I personally will almost never take divine steed anyway, I think Seal of Light is much better if you want mobility.

Talking about peeling your healer, Ret is not great at it but that doesn't mean it is flawed. Ret is just different. Instead of peeling, Ret is meant to off heal and counter CC on his healer. So with that in mind just play with a healer that doesn't need peels. This is how 3v3 works, you pick a comp and support each others strengths and weaknesses! Shaman traditionally sucks against melee but is good at stopping CC on themselves so for example that is the last healer you'd want to play with as ret (things are a bit different in legion but just as an example). Instead play with a healer that doesn't need peels against cleaves but could use help cleansing CC off of them.

You can hard cast in arena, especially in legion. You just have to do it right. I'm not saying to do what the "dumb rets" you are used to do and cast to try to save themselves at like 30% hp while their healer is CC, I'm saying to do it to save a teammate. If they can have enough CC to keep your healer down and lock you out and kill you from 100% hp then you have other problems. Like I said, hard casting is not reliable but it is still a factor. Other melee can't do it, it is a pro to playing ret and it fits their niche. If you think it is too limited in usefulness then complain that it needs buffs, don't say that they don't have a niche or that it is poorly designed.

I'm not talking from a PvE perspective at all, I'm talking about just 3v3. They do have a lot of utility as I have explained to you. You can refuse to see it or insist on having more things but to me it seems like just the Ret sickness where everyone just wants everything for their class. You can't have things like off healing, plate, bubble, ranged stun, freedom, BoP, sanc, blessings, minor cleanses etc while also having everything you want from other more melee too. They have tons of PvP utility, I don't think that is the current problem with ret at all.

Blizzcon is a very limited pool. Rogue has always been a good class yet they've never won blizzcon (I know you said semi's, not won). Rogue also has 3 dps specs, you'd think one time one of them would win right? It's pretty meaningless to say that ret is given the shaft because they've never gotten to semi's. Melee has pretty much always been bad anyway, it's the nature of the game.

Part of the problem is that ret is for casuals to begin with. It's a class designed to make people feel like they are powerful without actually knowing what they are doing. It's hard to design the class for higher level play without 80% of the class complaining that it doesn't feel right. That's why I like the direction they are going in legion, they are finally just going, "Screw everyone insisting ret has everything, let's just focus on making it a defensive burst melee like it's meant to be". It means the class can be more fitting for a certain playstyle and comp. Hopefully they see what this means and focuses ret into a role more, like perhaps design it more as like...the melee you pull out when fighting spread pressure or something.

Still it seems like ret just isn't the class for you. Your description of the niche you think it fits doesn't fit the lore, the history of the class, or blizzard's stated intent for the class. Like it or not, ret is MEANT to be a bursty, support-oriented melee focused more on valor and keeping your team in the fight rather than....wading through the enemy's blood and relishing in the slaying of your enemies.

[Snegovik]

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Yeh I know that the low numbers is the balancing issue (since Rets always under perform with numbers),
But the lack of mobility, cc, utility, range and survival in legion is the lack of design.
I am not saying WoG is bad, I am saying in most cases it is not worth it, since Ret’s Arena game play all about pressure where JV works better asp on burst, also JV works better with Crusader and DP, so you won’t pick WOG if you rolling Crusader/DP, aka to me it’s a bad design.
JV is great in Arena cuz it works of DP procs, faster builds up buffs for Crusader, and it’s a mini burst on demand, and since Ret all about burst, we gotta stack the burst abilities together.
Well other melee are viable in RBGs =) aka Wars, Dks, Rogues, Enh, even WW and Ferals were in demand in RBGs back in MOP, Ret is only melee class in game, that never had a niche in RBGs, to me it’s a bad design once again =(. As a PvPer I want to enjoy all aspects of PvP, I do not want to be exiled from a big chunk of PvP only cuz Blizzard can not give Ret proper tool kit, u know?
Well when you are popping wings, it is the only time Ret is truly dangerous, this is when teams like RMD, Thug, Jungle, RMP, WLS, God, Frozen chicken will cc/kite/peel you during wings and your healer won’t be able to always support you, because yes you have 1 sac, but those teams can spam CC and put ur healer in a 30-40 cc window pretty easy. The reason steed is a must for Rets in Legion because we lost all our mobility, and it is on demand gap closer for our Burst window, which is a must, i believe in most cases for 3v3 Steed is a clear winner, unless it’s a melee clv and they tunnel you, and even then you can use Steed to run away/LOS 2x melee.
Well Ret does not have any meaningful utility other than sac, which is what I was saying earlier, Ret does not have a proper tool kit to be on par with other melees at high end PvP. Like Rogues, Wars, Ferals, Dks, WW, Enh have better cc, mobility, utility and can peel for healer, why then Ret lacks in all 3 departments and still can not peel for healer? You right that comp suppose to support each other str and weakness a great example is RMD or God Comp, individually Rogue, Shadow, Mage are soft but in those comps they are top notch comps, because they perfectly work in unity together with a lot of strength to provide to cover up their weakness, while Ret brings to the table only weakness :P if you ask me, yes we have good burst but so what? Plenty of other classes bring good burst + outshine Ret in other departments, so why bring Ret then?
Ret can not play with every healer, we are only viable with Rdrood,Rshammy and maybe disc at low-mid CR but nothing high. Hpals and MW are not viable for Rets. All healers need peels vs mongloid comps like Jungle or TSG or Frost/Feral/Hpal =) if u don’t peel ur healer, no matter what class he plays, he will die, even RMD will hard swap your healer and global him/her on open =).
Yes you can hard cast in arena but not efficiently, aka you have to run behind pillar and LOS, since if you are on open, no team with half brains will let you hard cast. If you hard cast, means you lose pressure, if you lose pressure it means enemy healer can cc ur team, and enemy team can push in, a bad bad idea =). If you watched Avengerline and Vanguards play at Qualifies for Blizzcon this xpac most of their heals (there were very little casted) were casted behind box when they were resetting the fight.
Other melee can hard cast too =) Enh shammy, Feral, for them those casts are instant and they do not have to spec into it being instant unlike Ret on live.
Ret has only 1 viable utility aka Sac, BOP/Freedom is not a viable utility, you can not compare it to smoke bomb, war’s HP shout, Enh Totems, DK’s grips (RBG), also look at Shadow/Boomy/Elem their offheals and dmg and cc are both better than Ret;s so as their survival in Rated Arena. I am not refusing that Ret has cc, I am saying they are not on par with other classes; hence, Ret does not have a proper tool kit to compete at high end Rated PvP.
I do not want everything, I want Ret to be viable, which Ret is not, a great Example is Blizzcon, RBGs and Arena ladders.
Ret’s don’t have good offhealing, other DPS classes have better of healing, better utility, better dmg , better cc and better Survival than Ret, u know? So why Ret is left behind? Ret’s range stun is one of the worst CC in rated pvp, because it can be dispelled, other ccs can not be dispelled with a regular magic cleanse (stuns, clonse, war’s fear, Dk’s stuns, shammies totems and in legion they get extra stun, WW’stuns, blind, garrote, bash, and so on).
Plate does not mean much, since every class has magic attacks or way to reduce armor or bleeds, bubble is a bad cd with long timer and not great vs decent/good teams. Blessings are crap, they do not provide meaningful utility or aid to matter. BOP/Freedom can be dispelled/SS/purged/mimicked by DK half of the time its used against you.
I do not want everything from other melee, I simply stated for Ret to be viable, we need have strength in other departments other than only DPS. As I told you earlier, other melee have better cc, better mobility, better survival, same or better dmg, better utility. So I am saying Ret needs at least 1 more strong department other than DPS, I am not sure why you are saying that I want it ALL, when I want 1 more strong department.
As I wrote above, Ret has only 1 meaningful PvP utility, rest are border line useless and easy to be countered. Blizzcon is not limited pool, EVERY dps class in game were @ semi-finals or higher, that is not limited lol, limited is when only a small percentage of dps classes got there, not all but 1 class. I am not talking about DPS specs, because that is totally different, I am talking about a DPS class. Rogue can swap from Sub to Assassin to Combat and still Play DPS, u know? While Paladin player wants to DPS, person can only go Ret and that’s all, hence I said DPS class not DPS spec. Melee is not bad =) did you look at WOD s3 ladders ? or Did you see which comp won last blizzcon? War/Enh/Rdrood melee is very strong in WOD : ferals, rogues, wars, dks, WW, Enh, ONLY Ret is weak, that is what I am trying to explain, that Ret is left behind.
Yes Ret has a niche, its just very bad niche one of the worst in Rated PvP =).
Ret is not for casual, what does it say in a class description lol? In Wrath Rets were strong, in end of Cata Rets were decent, 2nd season of MOP Rets were decent, 1st month of WOD s1 Rets were good, rest of time we are shit lol. Rets are not for casuals, no idea why you think so, Ret is like any other DPS class that deserves a fair treatment from Blizzard to have a competitive tool kit to be able to perform on par with other big dogs.
I am not sure if I agree with you that new Ret players feel powerful without knowing what they are doing…did you face glad Boomy, mage, rogue, dk, enh, destroy lock 1v1? If you do not know what you are doing, it will be anything but a self empowered feeling when you lose the fight =).
It is not hard to design a class for higher lvl play, look at every melee in WOD , every melee class is competitive at high end either in WOD s1, 2 or 3 or Blizzcon semi finals+, every melee was there but Ret, it is not hard to make every class viable, it is hard to make Ret viable or rather lack of desire or knowledge. Enh/Elem, Shadow, Boomy, Feral/Boomy, WW (some may add DKs there) they all hybrids like Ret, they all can heal, cc and dps with good burst, yet only Ret for some reason is underperforming with those other dps classes are doing very well this xpac at least 1 season if not all.
Once again, I am not asking for Ret to have everything, I want it to be viable, and in order to be viable you need more than just high dmg, you will not get very far in rated pvp if you think DMG is the key, no offence. Ret is no where defensive burst melee, historically Ret was always very soft and was prime KT for most of Arenas and RBGs. See, if Blizzard would actually make Ret a good defensive dps class, that would work, but we re not, we are still very soft.
What do you mean Ret is not for me =) I plaid Ret for 9 years and competed @ high end Arena and RBGs, I love the this DPS class and I am Good at this. I am not sure if you call my desire for my favorite DPS Class to be viable and have a proper tool kit, how it translates that this class is not for me, not sure if I get your logic there. What blizzard tells us and what it gives to Rets are two totally different cups of tea. Yes Ret is bursty but that’s it, we do not bring anything else to the table at competitive level other than burst, but other DPS classes also have good burst, but they also have better CC, better Mobility, better Utility, Better survival, better Range than Ret. So I question Blizzard, why do other classes have a full and competitive toolkit to perform @ high end rated PvP, while Ret does not have the tools to perform on par with other big dogs.
P.S. Not sure what you mean by “more on valor and keeping your team in the fight” This is not how Ret is plaid in Rated 3s =) you go in, force CDs/Trinkets by using Wings, then most of the time you have to go Defensive, reset the fight and come out again with next CC chain and go for a kill.

[elvor0]

TBC: did nothing, made them overpowered in WOTLK. Nerf in prepatch. .

To be fair that pre-patch WOTLK nerf was warranted even as a ret paladin 4lyfe. 10 moderately geared retadins could do Karazhan with DS and Holy Poke and DS cut through people like butter. I mean, it was fun as shit and I wish they could've given us more than a week, but damn did I enjoy that week.

[minteK917]

To be fair that pre-patch WOTLK nerf was warranted even as a ret paladin 4lyfe. 10 moderately geared retadins could do Karazhan with DS and Holy Poke and DS cut through people like butter. I mean, it was fun as shit and I wish they could've given us more than a week, but damn did I enjoy that week.

My comment was about the state of TBC, as an example of the outcome of Legion. Legion Ret is dogshit. It reminds me alot of TBC ret actually. Useless in PVP, ok in raid in the later tier when weapon damage outscales everything. This is still the case now, ret probably will be fine in PVE by the end of legion since most of the attacks are weapon %. Itll be shit for most of it and shit for PVP if it follow TBC, where ret only received its overhaul the expansion after.

Like i said in the post, this is the middle ground scenario for ret. The good one being the Cata scenario, where ret came out as dogshit, then was given utility in patches and ended up being very good middle of the expansion to the end.PVP and PVE. Or the worst case is vanilla. Dogshit til the end, fixed in tbc alpha, nerfed in tbc alpha, launched as pure poop.

[elvor0]

My comment was about the state of TBC, as an example of the outcome of Legion. Legion Ret is dogshit. It reminds me alot of TBC ret actually. Useless in PVP, ok in raid in the later tier when weapon damage outscales everything. This is still the case now, ret probably will be fine in PVE by the end of legion since most of the attacks are weapon %. Itll be shit for most of it and shit for PVP if it follow TBC, where ret only received its overhaul the expansion after.

Like i said in the post, this is the middle ground scenario for ret. The good one being the Cata scenario, where ret came out as dogshit, then was given utility in patches and ended up being very good middle of the expansion to the end.PVP and PVE. Or the worst case is vanilla. Dogshit til the end, fixed in tbc alpha, nerfed in tbc alpha, launched as pure poop.

Oh I know and agree with your post, I was merely reminiscing :P

Performance wise Ret will probably be okay, as enough haste will remove the judgement "window", and make things fast paced again but without the nuance. Gameplay wise at the moment, I'm really not digging it, even with ashes to ashes. It's so rigid and repetitive, and thematically focuses far too much on swordplay rather than being a Paladin. Obviously the current WoD version has rigidity in the priority system, but it feels bombastic and fun to play for me personally just because of how fast paced it is. Pre-patch is going to be such a chore without artifact. GBOW is the biggest joke though. Fucking 1% mana per 15s, the fuck is that?

[minteK917]

Probably gona play my rogue here or a dh anyway. Even with the mess rogue is, its still better then ret somehow lol. Every spec performs decently in PVP, Outlaw might need some buffs in pve still. But you know its better then paladin. They even made sure holy and prot was back to tbc level of sleep induction. They just made it so my 12 years paladin main is just gona go back to dust. Hell if i needed character space id probably just delete it.

[Schattenlied]

Performance wise Ret will probably be okay,

Yes, ret will perform just fine, outright performance isn't the issue, it's never been the issue...

GBOW is the biggest joke though. Fucking 1% mana per 15s, the fuck is that?

This is part of the issue, sort of...It's not that GBoW is weak, or that GBoK is weak, it's simply that GBoM exists at all... As long as GBoM exists, it is REQUIRED for us to have 3 up, because it's part of our DPS... If they aren't going to force a "one of each blessing" limit, so that we can only have 1 GBoM out at a time, then GBoM needs to be removed from the game entirely, as long as it exists we are not allowed to use any of the other blessings.


Also we need mobility, fucking BAD.

[elvor0]

Yes, ret will perform just fine, outright performance isn't the issue, it's never been the issue...

I know, I was just thinking aloud. I said as much in my post that the gameplay is a total chore and I don't like it. I just didn't go into the details because they've been said much better and many times before me.

And yeah, the Pony is a joke. As is Seal of Light.

[Sungamnori]

Yes, ret will perform just fine, outright performance isn't the issue, it's never been the issue...



This is part of the issue, sort of...It's not that GBoW is weak, or that GBoK is weak, it's simply that GBoM exists at all... As long as GBoM exists, it is REQUIRED for us to have 3 up, because it's part of our DPS... If they aren't going to force a "one of each blessing" limit, so that we can only have 1 GBoM out at a time, then GBoM needs to be removed from the game entirely, as long as it exists we are not allowed to use any of the other blessings.


Also we need mobility, fucking BAD.

I don't see myself ever casting any blessings on players other than myself, as long as they have the shitty combat lockout mechanic. I'll cast a M, a K, and a W on myself and that's that.

[Schattenlied]

I don't see myself ever casting any blessings on players other than myself, as long as they have the shitty combat lockout mechanic. I'll cast a M, a K, and a W on myself and that's that.

Then you are losing 6-10% of your DPS, have fun getting bitched at for under-performing...

Don't try to excuse blizzard's shit design by suggesting bad band-aid workarounds.

[Sungamnori]

Then you are losing 6-10% of your DPS, have fun getting bitched at for under-performing...

Don't try to excuse blizzard's shit design by suggesting bad band-aid workarounds.

I'm not excusing anything... I'm protesting by refusing to play how they want me to.

[Schattenlied]

I'm not excusing anything... I'm protesting by refusing to play how they want me to.

Yes, protest in a way that blizzard will never actually see, that will accomplish something.

[Exedore]

I like the direction Ret is headed. I felt it's strayed too far from a paladin feel over the last few expansions. However, Ret still has a ways to go in order to reach its destination.

Combat System
I don't mind the current combat system. First, I didn't like the misleading complexity of the WoD system. I say "misleading" because the priority system doesn't have that much depth for it. It's basically whether or not you memorized a set of rules. I also didn't like the "fill ever GCD and then some" approach to making a combat system interesting. A good chunk was proc-based filler which just gets really annoying and was largely inconsequential. But more importantly, while it may work for pure DPS, Ret always had a support angle and you need a few free GCDs in order to use support without being overly punished on damage.

What needs work with the combat system is the cooldowns of Blade of Justice (and its replacements) and "Judgment Smash". I don't mind the concept of Judgment's damage window - it's intended to prevent spamming - but with a marginal amount of haste, it becomes irrelevant. Additionally, tacking more damage onto Judgment seems to run counter to the idea of using it to set up a burst window. Blizzard also keeps messing with the cooldowns of the holy power generators. They seem to not know what to do and it's forcing people into certain talents, most notably Fires of the Crusade.

Utility
This is where Ret feels extremely lacking. Ret needs more active group support. It could do without the passive forgettable Greater Blessings. For PvE, utility other than Flash of Light is on a long CD, even with reduction from Ashbringer or becomes useless when stronger mobs are immune. Mobility is lacking for mobile fights. For PvP, we're often using it on ourselves rather than allies because there isn't enough to go around. Time on target is hard to achieve without column 2 or column 3 honor talents and even then may still be lacking.

Ideas
Remove Greater Blessings. Greater Blessing of Might becomes an aura which adds extra damage as holy damage to those affected. Like other auras, the effect per player is reduced as more players are affected (though not an even distribution so that more players is always more total damage). Auras are usually small radius, so positioning yourself for greater benefit adds to gameplay. Greater Blessing of Kings becomes a normal blessing with a medium CD (1min sounds good) and the effect is increased, but the buff only lasts for a short time (around 15sec). Remove Shield of Vengeance due to heavy overlap. This gives Ret support utility which can be used fairly often, so there's less of a issue if you need to use it on yourself. Greater Blessing of Wisdom gone completely.

Split Fires of the Crusade into two talents: one to lower the CD of CS and another for the holy power refund. Move the Holy Power refund to the level 15 row, replacing Final Verdict (adjust base TV and DS numbers a bit). The CD reduction on CS (the reduction could be increased again) is now a choice for players who don't want empty GCDs or aren't that great with managing holy power generators; it can now be balanced without feeling mandatory. By taking Final Verdict out of the level 15 row, Execution Sentence is easier to balance.

Tune Blade of Justice's cooldown based on the 4.5sec CS cooldown, which puts around a 7.5sec base CD. For Blade of Wrath, instead of it being a slightly lower CD which makes it hard to have a smooth rotation regardless of talents, consider making it two charges at double the CD of Blade of Justice (maybe slightly lower overall damage and keep the DoT component to offset burst potential). To make Divine Hammer better for single target, consider changing how it generates holy power. Each hammer it puts out will generate 1 holy power, with 4 hammers total. CD would be double Blade of Justice, but you'd use one less GCD, so you can offset the lower single target damage of the ability itself.

Divine Steed is baseline. Put Knight Templar (the protection talent) in its level 90 row spot. Scrap Speed of Light. Move Eye for an Eye down to the level 90 row in the spot vacated by Speed of Light. Put Selfless Healer into the spot at the level 75 row vacated by Eye for an Eye.

Swap Holy Wrath with Hammer of Reckoning (PvP talent). Change how Hammer of Reckoning gets its bonus damage (more damage based on percent of HP target is missing?). Holy Wrath doesn't make sense outside of PvP and many players want the Hammer of Wrath feel.