[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Coalbane]

What is the theoretical highest uptime on Momentum?

I would like to set a target for improving my uptime.

We've got:
Fel Rush, which is 2 charges on a 10 second recharge timer.
Vengeful Retreat, which is once every 15 seconds with Prepared.
Demon Speed, which gives us 2 more charges of Fel Rush every 60 seconds (the cooldown of Blur).

Can someone who is better at math than me throw some calculations on here?

I respecced right before our guild did some beta raid testing yesterday to try out a Momentum-based build on Skorpyron (Xavius was already down ). First of all, I had a blast even if I had no idea wtf I was doing. I already know my uptime on Momentum was horrendous. I found myself sitting unnecessarily on charges of FR/VR because I wanted to use them on adds and I was probably sitting on them too long to do so. I also forgot to use Blur offensively for the FR charges. I was shocked by the percentage of my damage created by Fel Rush on the adds. Also, they must have already brought Demon Blades back in line by then if you were getting 120k crits at some point. My average hit was only 20k and my average crit was 40k.

For anyone interested, logs are here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...yB9FRD#fight=3

I don't remember what relics I have (order hall missions were broken last night, so I didn't have my 3rd relic slot yet), but my artifact looked like this at the time: http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...9AE_UBP3AVMgEA

[enchiridion]

I am fully aware of that, and that was not the point. I dont use Felblade because I NEED it to get back in range. I use it for the Fury part of the ability.

As someone just learning Momentum for the first time, Felblade might help you understand the playstyle. The build suggested earlier (posted from discord) is more for the people that are familiar with the spec and know the playstyle very well. Felblade can be used as a crutch for new players to help them get the basics down.

My post was more directed at the posters in this thread, calming that Momentum can't be used because it will create problems for your raid group.

I think that would be pertinent on live, but as i think its safe to assume most of the community here is in beta i think its a great opportunity to practice the way it works best, as there is little to no penalty, making now the BEST time to learn to play that way. Practice makes permanent.

Also, that is not how you presented your point. Your original post said you can practice since you have felblade and practicing jumping in and out. So it looks like you are saying that is how it is played.

[Sangomah]

What is the theoretical highest uptime on Momentum? I would like to set a target for improving my uptime.


Can someone who is better at math than me throw some calculations on here?

I think 67% uptime is the absolute max if memory serves. Someone might come in and correct me though, but I'm 90% sure

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I think that would be pertinent on live, but as i think its safe to assume most of the community here is in beta i think its a great opportunity to practice the way it works best, as there is little to no penalty, making now the BEST time to learn to play that way. Practice makes permanent.

Also, that is not how you presented your point. Your original post said you can practice since you have felblade and practicing jumping in and out. So it looks like you are saying that is how it is played.

You are of course right in the first paragraph.
On your second, that is just bad wording on my part

[enchiridion]

What is the theoretical highest uptime on Momentum? I would like to set a target for improving my uptime.

We've got:
Fel Rush, which is 2 charges on a 10 second recharge timer.
Vengeful Retreat, which is once every 15 seconds with Prepared.
Demon Speed, which gives us 2 more charges of Fel Rush every 60 seconds (the cooldown of Blur).

Can someone who is better at math than me throw some calculations on here?

I respecced right before our guild did some beta raid testing yesterday to try out a Momentum-based build on Skorpyron (Xavius was already down ). First of all, I had a blast even if I had no idea wtf I was doing. I already know my uptime on Momentum was horrendous. I found myself sitting unnecessarily on charges of FR/VR because I wanted to use them on adds and I was probably sitting on them too long to do so. I also forgot to use Blur offensively for the FR charges. I was shocked by the percentage of my damage created by Fel Rush on the adds. Also, they must have already brought Demon Blades back in line by then if you were getting 120k crits at some point. My average hit was only 20k and my average crit was 40k.

For anyone interested, logs are here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...yB9FRD#fight=3

I don't remember what relics I have (order hall missions were broken last night, so I didn't have my 3rd relic slot yet), but my artifact looked like this at the time: http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...9AE_UBP3AVMgEA

you arent as far off as you think, IIRC a robot can get 60% uptime so anywhere between 50-60% is solid at worst. you were at 38% so, for not knowing what you are doing you are at a healthy starting point.

[Zeeket]

What is the theoretical highest uptime on Momentum?

I would like to set a target for improving my uptime.

We've got:
Fel Rush, which is 2 charges on a 10 second recharge timer.
Vengeful Retreat, which is once every 15 seconds with Prepared.
Demon Speed, which gives us 2 more charges of Fel Rush every 60 seconds (the cooldown of Blur).

Can someone who is better at math than me throw some calculations on here?

I respecced right before our guild did some beta raid testing yesterday to try out a Momentum-based build on Skorpyron (Xavius was already down ). First of all, I had a blast even if I had no idea wtf I was doing. I already know my uptime on Momentum was horrendous. I found myself sitting unnecessarily on charges of FR/VR because I wanted to use them on adds and I was probably sitting on them too long to do so. I also forgot to use Blur offensively for the FR charges. I was shocked by the percentage of my damage created by Fel Rush on the adds. Also, they must have already brought Demon Blades back in line by then if you were getting 120k crits at some point. My average hit was only 20k and my average crit was 40k.

For anyone interested, logs are here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...yB9FRD#fight=3

I don't remember what relics I have (order hall missions were broken last night, so I didn't have my 3rd relic slot yet), but my artifact looked like this at the time: http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...9AE_UBP3AVMgEA

67% is the theoretical max uptime of momentum, although saving a charge of fel rush for incoming adds and delaying momentum for that is actualy gunna be far more worth over trying to keep that max uptime but not having the buff for large add waves, having a fel rush into eyebeam cancel into deathsweep with the 20% damage buff is just lulzy damage

[Schezuan]

Apologies if this was already asked, but what is the proper opener with the Momentum build?
I just hit 110 and am working on getting comfortable with this build.

[Sangomah]

you arent as far off as you think, IIRC a robot can get 60% uptime so anywhere between 50-60% is solid at worst. you were at 38% so, for not knowing what you are doing you are at a healthy starting point.

Seems a bit weird.

In a 6 minute fight you get:

36 Fel rushes
24 Vengeful retreats

Thats 60 buffs lasting 4 seconds each, meaning 240 seconds of Momentum

a 6 minute fight is 360 seconds long.

That gives you an up time on Momentum of 66.6666666666667% = ~67% if played perfectly.

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The chance of you getting that is pretty small, as there are always factors that play in into a raid environment.

Can you get 66-67% uptime, sure. Can you effectivly dps during the entire buff? not always.

[neck deep]

67% is max without using demon speed at all. there's merit to having lower uptime on add fights however because all the uptime in the world isn't going to save you if you don't have charges when adds come.

[enchiridion]

Seems a bit weird.

In a 6 minute fight you get:

36 Fel rushes
24 Vengeful retreats

Thats 60 buffs lasting 4 seconds each, meaning 240 seconds of Momentum

a 6 minute fight is 360 seconds long.

That gives you an up time on Momentum of 66.6666666666667% = ~67% if played perfectly.

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The chance of you getting that is pretty small, as there are always factors that play in into a raid environment.

Can you get 66-67% uptime, sure. Can you effectivly dps during the entire buff? not always.

Not sure why im quoted in this....if its because i got the max uptime wrong i DID say IIRC, clearly i was mistaken, the rest of my point still stands tho.

[Deleted]

A question about professions, is it worth going Skinning/LW for Legion? I would like also like to know what professions you guys are going for as Havoc and why are you choosing that profession?

[Sangomah]

Not sure why im quoted in this....if its because i got the max uptime wrong i DID say IIRC, clearly i was mistaken, the rest of my point still stands tho.

Was not meant as a stab. Just quoting you for context as I claimed 1 number and you claimed another. Just trying to keep it all easier to read for anoyone skimming through the thread and not reading everything.

I will do Enchanting/x on mine most likely. Guild enchanter on live, so will most likely stick with that. Not sure about the other one yet.

[Mannic]

Apologies if this was already asked, but what is the proper opener with the Momentum build?
I just hit 110 and am working on getting comfortable with this build.

Been asked a few times this was posted by Van a few 10+ pages back or so




Fel Rush in
Pool to 120 (assuming UF)
Throw FoTI at some point
VR into EyeBeam
FR back (assuming BF if EB is buffed again; if not, you can Fblade back in, then refresh Momentum mid-Demonic if you feel lucky. If not, just accept 2s of waste)
Annihilation until it's over
Pool to 120
FR out
Meta in
Keep up Momentum, Pop blur to activate Demon Speed for 2x more FR, when Meta runs low save VR for the out of Meta EB and repeat.

[enchiridion]

Was not meant as a stab. Just quoting you for context as I claimed 1 number and you claimed another. Just trying to keep it all easier to read for anoyone skimming through the thread and not reading everything.

I will do Enchanting/x on mine most likely. Guild enchanter on live, so will most likely stick with that. Not sure about the other one yet.

My mistake on that then.

As far as proffs if you dont have a dedicated role already, like guild enchanter, its really what you want to do, DMC is really good right now for DH and if you dont want to buy one you can go Scrip, but there are no real raid buffs for professions anymore.

[Deleted]

Seems a bit weird.

In a 6 minute fight you get:

36 Fel rushes
24 Vengeful retreats

Thats 60 buffs lasting 4 seconds each, meaning 240 seconds of Momentum

a 6 minute fight is 360 seconds long.

That gives you an up time on Momentum of 66.6666666666667% = ~67% if played perfectly.

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The chance of you getting that is pretty small, as there are always factors that play in into a raid environment.

Can you get 66-67% uptime, sure. Can you effectivly dps during the entire buff? not always.

That's assuming Prepared. With DB, it's closer to 56% IIRC.

[Sangomah]

That's assuming Prepared. With DB, it's closer to 56% IIRC.

This is completely wrong. You still use it without Prepared, you just have to aim your VR like it was painted don Kib's beautiful illustration

Someone pointed out in the Havoc Discord that its due to the cd reduction. Will do the math just in case, but for now I stand corrected. Keeping it here for clarity.

Doing Math its actually ~53%!
@Nodotnowin was still more or less correct though!

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Another Edit:

I jumped to conclusions in my post, and didn't reflect on the actual numbers. (fuck math....)

note to self: think before typing!

[Zeeket]

A question about professions, is it worth going Skinning/LW for Legion? I would like also like to know what professions you guys are going for as Havoc and why are you choosing that profession?

I'm personally going skinning/LW simply because you can make your own gear at the start that has a chance to roll to absurd ilvls, you make 2 out of the 4 bracers needed to unlock the oblitrium forge so can trade easily for the other two AND make mad bank selling the 2 you make.

Its all about the money making, although if you want to make money all expac then herb+inscription may be better, people are gunna want glyphs and the respec tomes all expac long so that's consistent money there, and DMC's will make a fair chunk of money in the first few months. (infact ill have my DK as a main alt with those 2 proffs for that reason)

[Zoopercat]

@zorkesh oops, well that sure would make it hard to simulate We'll fix that today, thanks for letting me know. Gah, can't believe I missed that one in testing.

[nox597]

I am somewhat interested in Engineering... Nitro boosts sound pretty fun as a DH. Either you get the fast movement, or you get blown up into the air, where you can dash and glide. Does this concept work, in Legion? I heard they were working on putting engineering things back into non-rated bgs, as well (removed by accident).

[Tato23]

what you guys think of JC/mining? Torn, between that and skinning/leather. I do not have an alt that has either of those.

[Zoopercat]

@zorkesh fixed, try again