[Feral] Legion Discussion

[Kals]

How is feral looking for pvp? Will they be brought to RBGs now or is there still no reason to have feral? How about arenas - is it still incarnation + berserk = win or lose, or is the damage more consistent?

Still no reason to bring a feral to rbgs, even less so with DH in the mix now (which I could see as the preferred fc's now for sure). Arenas we might be mid tier with the possibility of some top tier comps depending which other specs get changed. As it stands most people are going to be looking for easy ratings with enhance and wars right now, so you'll likely get passed for one of those 2 specs but comps like fmp(s), kittycleave and probably enh/feral/heal will be the go to 3s comps for the start of the season for us.

[Celestraza]

Can anyone confirm if fishing for shadow thrash in Mythic+ is still the way to go for AoE over Brutal Slash (recent buff)?

I was expecting an AoE fix to our baseline AoE and maybe a nerf/change to shadow thrash (too RNG for most peoples taste).
Was not expecting a buff to Brutal Slash with no changes to the rest of the AoE toolkit.

[Icecreamcake]

Yes you can take SR, BT and JW.

Depending on how the buff to bite playing out ST should look like this:

Blood Scent|*Movement|Affinity*|*CC|SR|JW OR ST(Depending on Ash's Bite buff)| BT

*Your Choice

JW vs ST mainly comes down to bleed damage (Buffs or nerfs) vs our Artifact Trait (Buffs Vs Nerf)

What would be the ideal opener for this set up them?

Rake, Shred to empty energy, TF, SR at 5, Berserk? Then 5 point Rip?

I really want Feral to be viable, but fuck their lack of AoE and shit defensives

[teddabear]

I get that Blizzard doesn't always deliver on what people want, but it's also not in their best interest from a business perspective to continue to let happen what did in WoD where certain specs were so abysmal they were unplayable. Personally, I have faith that they're not going to be that dumb again, and I think they've done plenty to show that they're trying. There are game developers that won't even tell players what they're tuning, they just do it and expect the players to just suck it up. We're better off than we think.

They could have fixed the broken specs in WoD with 1 days work, they chose not too. The difference in defensive CDs between Rogues and every other class is still absurd. They nerf survivability into the ground for every other class and leave Rogues literally invulnerable.

[Tellof]

They could have fixed the broken specs in WoD with 1 days work, they chose not too. The difference in defensive CDs between Rogues and every other class is still absurd. They nerf survivability into the ground for every other class and leave Rogues literally invulnerable.

Trust me, it would have taken much longer than a day. No professional software-based company is going to make a bunch of sweeping changes and toss it onto live servers without thoroughly testing it, getting sign-off, preparing patch notes, etc, in just one day. If they could work that quickly and efficiently then we would already be playing Legion.

Part of the reason why certain specs weren't better tuned before now was because there wasn't yet a concept of PVP-specific talents and templates for stats and skills that separate PVP from PVE. They've now done all of that and for the first time have the proper tuning knobs to do what they need to do to keep everything more balanced than in the past. If, for example, they took survival hunters and buffed their PVE damage then they would have made them monstrously overpowered in PVP seeing as it was a top hunter spec in arenas even though it was straight garbage in raids.

[Blk]

Still no reason to bring a feral to rbgs, even less so with DH in the mix now (which I could see as the preferred fc's now for sure). Arenas we might be mid tier with the possibility of some top tier comps depending which other specs get changed. As it stands most people are going to be looking for easy ratings with enhance and wars right now, so you'll likely get passed for one of those 2 specs but comps like fmp(s), kittycleave and probably enh/feral/heal will be the go to 3s comps for the start of the season for us.

With the loss of cc and burst of speed, will feral be competitive with Rogues for base sitting/capping bases or are both rogues and druids getting sat in favor of other classes?

Is the mid tier just due to not having the stupid burst of some melee classes or toolkit? With resto affinity I was hoping it could work as a hybrid effectively like early WoD and give support to your healers or running 2 dps 2v2. It also appears we have better defenses and healing than enh, but they still have crazy burst. Did we sacrifice too much damage in pvp templates because we are mobile?

[Kals]

With the loss of cc and burst of speed, will feral be competitive with Rogues for base sitting/capping bases or are both rogues and druids getting sat in favor of other classes?

Is the mid tier just due to not having the stupid burst of some melee classes or toolkit? With resto affinity I was hoping it could work as a hybrid effectively like early WoD and give support to your healers or running 2 dps 2v2. It also appears we have better defenses and healing than enh, but they still have crazy burst. Did we sacrifice too much damage in pvp templates because we are mobile?

In terms of rbgs no one really takes or wants a feral now and we didn't get any significant changes in legion that will make us more desirable. Honestly I can't comment on the rogue situation but they've always been desirable due to smoke bomb, sap caps and their strong toolkit anyways. If they're less desirable this season it will be likely due to demon hunter representation.

Mid tier is due to lack of cc severely limiting our choice in partners since they'll have to make up for our lack of cc and the kind of cc we DO have strongly dr's with our preferred partner's. My Mage used to get pissed if I'd accidentally take stun his deep target during incarnation. Like I said if wars and frost mages don't get too drastic of changes we could be in some top tier comps but we're mostly just a damage bot with some extra utility and healing.

[RayenDark]

What would be the ideal opener for this set up them?

Rake, Shred to empty energy, TF, SR at 5, Berserk? Then 5 point Rip?

I really want Feral to be viable, but fuck their lack of AoE and shit defensives

Yes, we still want to open with Rake since it does get a damage boost from stealth.

[Blk]

In terms of rbgs no one really takes or wants a feral now and we didn't get any significant changes in legion that will make us more desirable. Honestly I can't comment on the rogue situation but they've always been desirable due to smoke bomb, sap caps and their strong toolkit anyways. If they're less desirable this season it will be likely due to demon hunter representation.

Mid tier is due to lack of cc severely limiting our choice in partners since they'll have to make up for our lack of cc and the kind of cc we DO have strongly dr's with our preferred partner's. My Mage used to get pissed if I'd accidentally take stun his deep target during incarnation. Like I said if wars and frost mages don't get too drastic of changes we could be in some top tier comps but we're mostly just a damage bot with some extra utility and healing.

CC has been lowered across the board and Feral still has rake stun and maim. Compare to assassin rogue who has cheap shot, kidney punch, and SAP (which is limited). Just looking at cc it appears stuns are king and we can talent into another. From watching streams it seems in arenas that cc is almost irrelevant and just burning someone down as soon as possible is the best strategy.

I agree with RBGs that we didn't gain anything, but did the other classes lose enough to make us competitive is the question. I am not even sure if the current aoe spread rot pressure is even going to be viable for RBGs with the changes to balance, affliction, and shadow, and perhaps we will see burst or melee heavy comps. Not having ability to test makes me wonder if I should just avoid druid as I hated having to go balance to RBG.

[Kraineth]

Can anyone confirm if fishing for shadow thrash in Mythic+ is still the way to go for AoE over Brutal Slash (recent buff)?

I was expecting an AoE fix to our baseline AoE and maybe a nerf/change to shadow thrash (too RNG for most peoples taste).
Was not expecting a buff to Brutal Slash with no changes to the rest of the AoE toolkit.

Fishing for Shadow Thrash over using Brutal Slash was never "the way to go"

If you ignore Brutal Slash, even before the buffs, you are playing incorrectly. Use Thrash as your filler between CDs.

[teddabear]

Trust me, it would have taken much longer than a day. No professional software-based company is going to make a bunch of sweeping changes and toss it onto live servers without thoroughly testing it, getting sign-off, preparing patch notes, etc, in just one day. If they could work that quickly and efficiently then we would already be playing Legion.

Part of the reason why certain specs weren't better tuned before now was because there wasn't yet a concept of PVP-specific talents and templates for stats and skills that separate PVP from PVE. They've now done all of that and for the first time have the proper tuning knobs to do what they need to do to keep everything more balanced than in the past. If, for example, they took survival hunters and buffed their PVE damage then they would have made them monstrously overpowered in PVP seeing as it was a top hunter spec in arenas even though it was straight garbage in raids.

Well let's see.

Buff Swipe to do same damage as Rake at 3 targets. Switch Tier 18 and Tier 17 bonuses.

Done. Took me 10 seconds.

[Meanshield]

Playing Jagged Wounds & Savage Roar together is nearly impossible to keep 100% uptime on both Rake & SR.

For a 3minute duration with Berserk at 819 ilvl, playing with SR isnt worth it over SotF if using Jagged Wounds. The damage is almost the same, but its mega stressful, and I dont really think I get anything out of SR.

Also, not being able to start with a 5x SR is quite a nuissance. I've tried Elune's Guidance, but .. Either its due to Beta-lag, or my internet conn, but some of my CPs keep overlapping with EG and I lose out on CPs. I'm betting its Beta-lag, but Its not really fun either.

Mayb Savage Roar becomes better again later on, but at 25%, I dont think it works well with JW, which I feel is clearly the best choice for ST damage. And its also alot more fun, than having 30+second uptimes on debuffs & buffs ..

[Zoopercat]

The Ask Mr. Robot simulator is now updated with the latest patch for all DPS specs.

As I mentioned last week, you can verify all of the updates. For example,
Jagged Wounds was an interesting change, from 33% to 40% reduction. You can verify that on the respective spell pages, like Rake. In the Periodic Damage section, you'll see a duration formula with a pink DurationSec function, that is multiplied by 0.6 (for a 40% reduction).

The artifact trait, Ashamane's Bite was significantly buffed, from 3% to 10% chance. If you go to the Ashamane's Bite page, near the top there's a Chance Percent, and you'll see 0.1 listed for the 10% chance.

If you want to test out artifacts, you can easily edit them or add/remove relics in the simulator. Just click on any part of the artifact interface to change it - that easy. Here's a 1-minute video showing all of the character customizations in the simulator.

If you have questions, you can also hit us up in our discord chat channel.

[Celestraza]

Fishing for Shadow Thrash over using Brutal Slash was never "the way to go"

If you ignore Brutal Slash, even before the buffs, you are playing incorrectly. Use Thrash as your filler between CDs.

Yet here is a feral who seems to get good results from what seems to me as fishing for Shadow Thrash:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LJwxM13chWb6ykXn

Here is a feral using Brutal Slash:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bRdaQGM7xmH3LN69

From what I can tell he is using the T100 talent Moment of Clarity which in combination with Thrash is generating what would seem some really high AoE numbers that might be superior to brutal slash, with the extra addition that Moment of Clarity is not useless on single target/bosses. If I look at the first 30 seconds of Purrowl's combat. He casts thrash 4 times and had no clearcasting procs yet has some insane shadow thrash damage. I need to test if Omen of Clarity works with thrash because 3 free thrashes to fish for shadow thrash seems sick.

Saw other ferals reporting on forums they seem to have higher output with this method as well. So don't dismiss it as "not the way to go".
Back it up with a log or explanation why this would not be a valid way to get high AoE numbers.

[Blk]

Speaking of aoe, why is fury swipes a pvp talent instead of a pve talent? That would go a long way to making pve sustained aoe more bearable.

[teddabear]

Yet here is a feral who seems to get good results from what seems to me as fishing for Shadow Thrash:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LJwxM13chWb6ykXn

Here is a feral using Brutal Slash:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bRdaQGM7xmH3LN69

From what I can tell he is using the T100 talent Moment of Clarity which in combination with Thrash is generating what would seem some really high AoE numbers that might be superior to brutal slash, with the extra addition that Moment of Clarity is not useless on single target/bosses. If I look at the first 30 seconds of Purrowl's combat. He casts thrash 4 times and had no clearcasting procs yet has some insane shadow thrash damage. I need to test if Omen of Clarity works with thrash because 3 free thrashes to fish for shadow thrash seems sick.

Saw other ferals reporting on forums they seem to have higher output with this method as well. So don't dismiss it as "not the way to go".
Back it up with a log or explanation why this would not be a valid way to get high AoE numbers.

Shadow Thrash is extremely RNG. If you try it enough you will occasionally get some outrageous parses. You will also get a lot of parses where you were essentially useless.

[Kainslife]

Shadow Thrash is extremely RNG. If you try it enough you will occasionally get some outrageous parses. You will also get a lot of parses where you were essentially useless.

Can't really be that much RNG if it's that much DPS over 20 minutes worth of combat.

[Celestraza]

Shadow Thrash is extremely RNG. If you try it enough you will occasionally get some outrageous parses. You will also get a lot of parses where you were essentially useless.

Tbh 25% chance is quite high and if you get 3 clearcasting procs, you will always have a good chance of proccing it at least once.
I mean he cast thrash like 100+ times in that Mythic+ dungeon? With roughly 25 shadow thrashes.

But yeah I also dislike the thought of it but Purrowl is the kind of feral that probably knows what he is doing.

[Methril]

So I main a warrior atm in wod 12/13 mythic but have several friends playing feral they all seems a bit unhappy especially with sr as a talent. I love the idea and fantasy of the feral and got a druid alt. Not happy with fury currently and have played around some on the ptr with feral considered it as a new main. My problems is savage roar is a pain to use and pales compared to incarnation as a fun talent, and my guild druids seem to agree. if you want to play jagged wounds you basicly just press rip and sr in a rotation and fb completely dies, also savage roar with its current duration seem to punish blood talons play in a way since you use less damaging finishers I really dislike it. soul of the forest seems fine as a passive choice for question or something like that when you just want a consistent boost to dmg. The most fun talent incarnation seems rather weak in most scenarios compared to the other but it's by far the most fun one. Now for the final tier I hate that bloodtalents is fighting for brutal slash I like burst aoe and setting up for huge aoe dmg through planing and timing I would like them to interact so you couldd play blood talons into that for some fun moments. Feels like the blood talons loss might also be very significant on your overall priority/single target damage.

Will any of this change once you have your artifact etc? I know tuning might change things

what I really really would like from blizzard atm if it's going to remain as is would be that they swap savage roar and brutal slash, That way you would have the choice of speeding up your spec and having a passive but always reliable energy boost, Singletarget burst talent for when the boss has to die or if you need more aoe you have that option aswell on fights like mannoroth komrok etc that could be amazing. It would also let you have some more gameplay through bt and brutal slash. Imo savage roar, blood talents and moment of clarity serves the same purpose in different ways as a self buff. savage roar would be the maintenance buff if you prefer that it is also easier to grasp than blood talons and moment of clarity would be more of a reactionary playstyle where you react to the proc. While blood talons seems to be the talent that requires more planing where you prepare and time stuff. I really think this would be way more fun and feel way better than the current talent tree does. imo the final tier should then be tuned about equal but I would prefer bt beeing slightly more rewarding as that seems the most interactive talent, but just slightly so the others would be fine aswell. I really feel like this would give you way better options for how your rotation will work without having to sacrifice cool abilities like brutal slash or incarnation to play the way you want.

[zurm]

In terms of rbgs no one really takes or wants a feral now and we didn't get any significant changes in legion that will make us more desirable. Honestly I can't comment on the rogue situation but they've always been desirable due to smoke bomb, sap caps and their strong toolkit anyways. If they're less desirable this season it will be likely due to demon hunter representation.

Mid tier is due to lack of cc severely limiting our choice in partners since they'll have to make up for our lack of cc and the kind of cc we DO have strongly dr's with our preferred partner's. My Mage used to get pissed if I'd accidentally take stun his deep target during incarnation. Like I said if wars and frost mages don't get too drastic of changes we could be in some top tier comps but we're mostly just a damage bot with some extra utility and healing.

I feel like you're falling in the trap of "look what I lost" going from WOD --> legion, and ignoring other classes' losses. EVERYONE got gutted. Even rogues (they still have more buttons than everyone else, but they lost quite a few, and many others only apply to 1 spec now). DH's are also ABSURDLY squishy outside of their big cooldown and very easy to kill for a few classes. Their mobility is nice, and most RBG teams will probably still have one (the ability to see people in stealth is pretty huge if used well), but I wouldn't count ferals out just yet. You still have very high base movement speed, immunity to an entire category of CC, solid mobility via talents, strong defensive CDs, and a lot of utility through affinities to cater to your group's needs. Not to mention the recent buffs to feral put their damage up there.

Frost mages lost a TON of CC, including their incredibly strong stun (unless it's a PvP talent now? definitely not baseline anymore). Most rogues lost blind, and almost every class that had an execute lost it (except warriors and spriests, I think). Defensive abilities that are still around have almost been nerfed across the board, either by cooldown duration or diminished effectiveness (ie, monk 90% CDs are now only 60% DR), though to be fair it does seem like cloak/vanish and maybe evasion have somehow escaped this.