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  1. #1381
    Quote Originally Posted by Drib View Post
    This is the best in case to max the DPS output, the damage and survivability bonus of Brambles is obsolete. Blood Frenzy is the talent of choice, since it's not a flat dmg reduction and the bonus scales with the number of targets.
    In general in AoE situations it is only a small survivability loss to even switch to a APL "Thrash>Swipe" which is a great DPS increase(based on simulations and mythic+ dungeon tests). Yea, that's right, no Mangle and no Moonfire (,or GG proccs) use.

    I'm confused as to what you are suggesting here. Neither Bristling Fur (BF) nor Frenzy can compete with brambles in terms of DPS. Additionally, Frenzy's only shines when used on large groups which generally don't survive long enough to make it better than BF in terms of Rage Gen. Neither Frenzy nor BF offer any type of dmg reduction except in the form of increased Rage Gen to use our active mitigation (AM).
    Last edited by Kioga; 2016-07-14 at 04:51 PM.

  2. #1382
    Quote Originally Posted by Kioga View Post
    I'm confused as to what you are suggesting here.

    Brambles is best but obsolete?
    Rotation without Mangle?
    APL?
    Brambles is the only Tier 1 Talent that gives a DPS increase, hence it is the beste (neglecting the fact that the rage from Blood Frenzy could be converted into Mauls, because rage is better spend on Ironfur).

    For AoE situations you will get little only drawback in rage generation if you don't use Mangle, while the damage increases drasticaly. Using the nomal Action Priority List(APL) in comperision to not using Moonfire an Mangle increases damage taken by about ~15% but the damge done by ~40% (vs. 7 targets) getting even better damage taken to damage done ratio the more enemys there are (damage taken ~15% | damage done 50% vs. 10 targets).
    So I am suggesting to drop Mangle in AoE situations completly, as long as your heal can handle it. And even if he can't handle it in general to drop it while Rage of the Sleeper is up.

    I will start some simulations to see at which target number the damage taken gain is equal to the damage done.

  3. #1383
    Quote Originally Posted by Drib View Post
    So I am suggesting to drop Mangle in AoE situations completly, as long as your heal can handle it. And even if he can't handle it in general to drop it while Rage of the Sleeper is up.
    I agree with your first point, but the second I'm going to disagree with. Do NOT use mangle, or any on-gcd single target during ROTS unless you are only fighting a single target. The leech and extra damage to abilities makes this a VERY bad decision. You are MUCH more survivable spamming swipe + thrash in an aoe situation when ROTS is up (the exception here of course being if you ALSO took Incarn and are fighting 2-4 targets, then mangle would be the best option). If you are in desperate need of rage, using a GG proc is your better option, since it generates so much more rage in a GCD (and with a ton of targets, it's constantly proccing). Also note that brambles DOES in fact proc GG: easy way to test (which I've done repeatedly on beta) is to proximity pull a mob with brambles and GG talented. Eventually the mob will hit you and proc moonfire on itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drib View Post
    This is the best in case to max the DPS output, the damage and survivability bonus of Brambles is obsolete. Blood Frenzy is the talent of choice, since it's not a flat dmg reduction and the bonus scales with the number of targets.
    In general in AoE situations it is only a small survivability loss to even switch to a APL "Thrash>Swipe" which is a great DPS increase(based on simulations and mythic+ dungeon tests). Yea, that's right, no Mangle and no Moonfire (,or GG proccs) use.
    In regards to your war on brambles... we really have plenty of rage as it is, without the additional rage from the thrash talent; at least, if you take GG, which is the correct answer 90%+ of the time. Contrary to what you said, brambles DOES scale with number of targets... in fact it scales perfectly with more targets, where as blood frenzy can reach a cap where you generate too much rage that you can't use to any real effect (there is severely diminishing returns on additional armor). The extra rage would go to maul which can hit one target. In any kind of AoE situation (ie dungeons) where you're fighting a bunch of mobs at once, the defensive AND offensive benefit of brambles far outweighs the other two options, IMO. This is especially true on dungeons with mob packs that are "swarms" of little adds, like the globules in Eye of Ashara, or spider/imp packs in Vault of the Wardens. And while solo/questing, nothing compares to brambles, because it almost completely negates the damage of most mobs.
    Last edited by zurm; 2016-07-14 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #1384
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    I agree with your first point, but the second I'm going to disagree with. Do NOT use mangle, or any on-gcd single target during ROTS unless you are only fighting a single target. The leech and extra damage to abilities makes this a VERY bad decision. You are MUCH more survivable spamming swipe + thrash in an aoe situation when ROTS is up (the exception here of course being if you ALSO took Incarn and are fighting 2-4 targets, then mangle would be the best option). If you are in desperate need of rage, using a GG proc is your better option, since it generates so much more rage in a GCD (and with a ton of targets, it's constantly proccing). Also note that brambles DOES in fact proc GG: easy way to test (which I've done repeatedly on beta) is to proximity pull a mob with brambles and GG talented. Eventually the mob will hit you and proc moonfire on itself.



    In regards to your war on brambles... we really have plenty of rage as it is, without the additional rage from the thrash talent; at least, if you take GG, which is the correct answer 90%+ of the time. Contrary to what you said, brambles DOES scale with number of targets... in fact it scales perfectly with more targets, where as blood frenzy can reach a cap where you generate too much rage that you can't use to any real effect (there is severely diminishing returns on additional armor). The extra rage would go to maul which can hit one target. In any kind of AoE situation (ie dungeons) where you're fighting a bunch of mobs at once, the defensive AND offensive benefit of brambles far outweighs the other two options, IMO. This is especially true on dungeons with mob packs that are "swarms" of little adds, like the globules in Eye of Ashara, or spider/imp packs in Vault of the Wardens. And while solo/questing, nothing compares to brambles, because it almost completely negates the damage of most mobs.
    Sorry, I totally meant to say, that if the heal can't handle it in general to drop mangle while Rage of the Sleeper is active in AoE situations.

    Regarding the "I-have-too-much-rage" problem, Maul damage does not scale with the target number but Iron Fur "does". The second stack of IF lowers the damage taken by an additional ~20%( first is ~24%). You are right, concidering the "swarms", where a good portion or even all damage is absorbed by Brambles. In that case Brambles is a good choice, while these low hitting monsters are few.

    But don't get me wrong, I will totally go with Brambles for leveling.

    Edit: And Brambles does not Procc GG. Just tested: Got 300 Bramble hits and no GG Procc!
    Last edited by Drib; 2016-07-14 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #1385
    doing some raid testing tonight, will try to remember to log and post here. but its awful because you lose the bonus of your relics, so ironfur is just bleh right now

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HLpRxz94dFc8tQhK/

    advanced combat logging wasn't enabled, sorry.

  6. #1386
    I'm torn between Bear and Blood right now as my MT, not sure which one to go with.

  7. #1387
    dude im torn between every tank except monk lol. at least with dk and bear u have probs the 2 strongest atm it seems. i just got beta today so hopefully it helps me decide

  8. #1388
    Deleted
    How does Warcraftlogs calculate "external healing required" now since the extra healing taken by mastery is counted as the druids healing? Completly fucked up I guess?

  9. #1389
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    How does Warcraftlogs calculate "external healing required" now since the extra healing taken by mastery is counted as the druids healing? Completly fucked up I guess?
    Mastery will show up on the bear as their healing on meters and logs.

  10. #1390
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khatix View Post
    Mastery will show up on the bear as their healing on meters and logs.
    Which I already said with

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    since the extra healing taken by mastery is counted as the druids healing? Completly fucked up I guess?
    but did not answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    How does Warcraftlogs calculate "external healing required" now

  11. #1391
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    How does Warcraftlogs calculate "external healing required" now since the extra healing taken by mastery is counted as the druids healing? Completly fucked up I guess?
    They might need to update to handle this, I suggest you ask the WarcraftLogs creator over twitter, he is usually quite responsive. Its out of our hands.
    On the other hand, it specifically says "external healing required", which should deduct self-healing already, so maybe it just works out as-is?

  12. #1392
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    Which I already said with



    but did not answer
    Mastery is counted as your healing...just like FR and our other self healing.....so its handled the same way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    They might need to update to handle this, I suggest you ask the WarcraftLogs creator over twitter, he is usually quite responsive. Its out of our hands.
    On the other hand, it specifically says "external healing required", which should deduct self-healing already, so maybe it just works out as-is?
    They wouldn't update to handle it so it shows on your healers, because its a separate event on the log that applies to us. If WCL updated to give healers our mastery healing on their end, it would skewer bear vs other tanks really bad.

  13. #1393
    Deleted
    The Problem is it isnt the bears healing technically in most cases. If you dont take any heals by your healer you wont have any Nature's Guardian healing in your log (except procced by selfheals). So, to get Masteryhealing you need external healing.

  14. #1394
    Quote Originally Posted by Khatix View Post
    Mastery is counted as your healing...just like FR and our other self healing.....so its handled the same way.
    I think you need to re-read the question. Your answer makes no sense in context.

  15. #1395
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khatix View Post
    it would skewer bear vs other tanks really bad.
    So at the end its the bears fault when he dies to lack of heal? I dont think so. Same shit like the monks duplicated heals via crit but monks are on a complet other sheet of paper, they work completly different as the other tanks.

  16. #1396
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think you need to re-read the question. Your answer makes no sense in context.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    So at the end its the bears fault when he dies to lack of heal? I dont think so. Same shit like the monks duplicated heals via crit but monks are on a complet other sheet of paper, they work completly different as the other tanks.
    It will be handled the same way as Shining Protector is handled for WoD-Prot Paladin. It's the same exact mechanic, just with different trigger/amount healed.

  17. #1397
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    The Problem is it isnt the bears healing technically in most cases. If you dont take any heals by your healer you wont have any Nature's Guardian healing in your log (except procced by selfheals). So, to get Masteryhealing you need external healing.
    You don't need any more healing then other tanks though, we just create some of our own to compensate for the increases health pool.
    Other tanks also need external healing.

    We have a higher health pool to sustain us longer, other tanks take slightly less damage, so if its all balanced properly it should come out to the exact same end-result - we can take X hits from the boss before dying, or need Y heal to survive - that we generate some extra healing ourselves is not important here, as long as X and Y are similar between tank classes.

  18. #1398
    odd question - what weapon enchant will people be using when the patch drops?

  19. #1399
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    odd question - what weapon enchant will people be using when the patch drops?
    Mastery proc

  20. #1400
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabator View Post
    Which I already said with



    but did not answer
    Aren't they removing the tank ranking though?

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