Arms Legion Discussion

[Tatsujin]

The base value is 15%, which is further increased by Mastery. The spell has always read this way.

See these two tooltips together for clarity:
Colossus Smash
Mastery: Colossal Might

Thanks Arch.

[Nightstalker]

How dull and RNG-heavy does arms feel right now? I mean we stack up mastery again for those massive burst windows that can be totally random. They should give Slam a reset advantage on targets that don't have the CS debuff and other styles an advantage when the debuff is allready up. If you get the numbers right it might feel more engaging.

[Artunias]

How dull and RNG-heavy does arms feel right now? I mean we stack up mastery again for those massive burst windows that can be totally random. They should give Slam a reset advantage on targets that don't have the CS debuff and other stlyes an advantage when the debuff is allready up. If you get the numbers right it might feel more engaging.

It's pretty RNG, even with 3/3 Exploit sometimes you just get boned. Overpower is at least a decent spice to the single target rotation, but at the moment the Fervor build still blows everything else out of the water. And even that build is just right in the running, not super strong or anything.

So I don't know, it's hard to say because Arms tuning has been shit most of the beta. There was like one or two builds when Bladestorm was a tactical nuke, and it wasn't bad haha. But since they massive Bladestorm nerfs Arms has just been pretty MEH.

I think the spec could be fun, one of the most fun even. It's the same shit we've been saying forever. Tactician RNG and execute rage generation. My only other point would be Mortal Strike and Execute don't feel powerful to press. Mortal Strike is pretty meh on damage, and execute leaves you rage starved almost instantly. It works in making Shattered Defenses feel real good, but I think there's room to make those abilities more powerful outside of Shattered Defenses.

[Rorke]

Arms is so bipolar on beta to the point where its funny.

You either get ridiculous burst windows where CS Procs multiple times within itself so you can attain multiple MS Shattered Defense procs or you just end up sitting there with no rage and haven't seen a CS window proc in over 30 seconds.

Most of the time CS procs often (average like every 10-15 seconds) but rarely you'll get a point where it just feels like nothing is happening and this is even with 4/4 Exploit the Weakness.

I had a very fun time leveling Arms from 100-110 because the sheer amount of damage you can do in a burst window is insane with Focused Rage and Overpower. Overpower procs a lot to the point where I just ignored Slam and Whirlwind single target and just used that rage on Focused Rage for MS and used MS on cd. I would sometimes Slam on single target if I had 40ish+ rage when there was nothing else to do.

This isn't anything optimal for raiding but its good for cutting down mobs fast while leveling. I found that running Dauntless/Fevor/Trauma was just slow because Whirlwind even with Fevor is still weaker than MS. Trauma sucks unless you can somehow maintain Slam/Whirlwind while having to dump rage on FR/MS. It's much better to just go with Deadly Calm where every minute you can basically get a free full rage bar so after you dish out your ridiculous damage with War Cry you can set up another possible CS window with a full rage bar after War Cry expires.

I took Rend instead of Fevor or Avatar. Avatar is probably really good but I felt that the cd was too long for leveling. Rend sucks but its passive damage that's cheap on rage and I feel that it pairs well with Opportunity Strikes for free passive damage.

[Deleted]

I have a theory about gearing arms next expansion: what if it is not worth putting work into fury at all and directly go for the arms weapon. I heard arms was scaling/working better with gear. it takes a lot of artifact power to push the artifact weapon to the limit, therefore as sooner you start the better you are using your time.
so, regardless of fury being better in terms of damage now (honestly I dont give a fuck about dmg, since im only in a top300 raiding guild) wouldn't it be better to take the arms weapon? because it seems impossible to me, leveling up two weapons inclusive all gold traits and the scaling effect. really one is spoilt for choice.

[Deleted]

It is true that the tactician acts like a madman. At some pulls I get 5 procs within something around 20 sec, and once I even tried at a boss fight with zero movement to get 0 procs - not one freaking single proc.
I still love arms when you get those chain procs you feel like a god! When you get no procs you feel like a retarded turtle walking into a rock over and over again for every button you press.
I would like some sort of *safety* mechanic , but no matter what , then ill stay arms

[Artunias]

I have a theory about gearing arms next expansion: what if it is not worth putting work into fury at all and directly go for the arms weapon. I heard arms was scaling/working better with gear. it takes a lot of artifact power to push the artifact weapon to the limit, therefore as sooner you start the better you are using your time.
so, regardless of fury being better in terms of damage now (honestly I dont give a fuck about dmg, since im only in a top300 raiding guild) wouldn't it be better to take the arms weapon? because it seems impossible to me, leveling up two weapons inclusive all gold traits and the scaling effect. really one is spoilt for choice.

I promise you it's not that hard to keep two weapons reasonably leveled.

[Deleted]

I promise you it's not that hard to keep two weapons reasonably leveled.

Can you elaborate this claim please? Since I saw a lot of information online that says the opposite.

[Artunias]

Can you elaborate this claim please? Since I saw a lot of information online that says the opposite.

Originally it was. Maybe about a month ago they retuned artifact power and the amount you get from drops. In addition to completing the artifact research mechanic, which increases the rate at which you gain artifact power.

As an example. You get your first 13 traits more or less upon reaching maximum level. To get the 14th trait the cost jumps quite a bit. So for the cost of one trait in that weapon, you could get the first 13 traits in your second weapon. This sort of leap frog effect maintains throughout various artifact levels. And also artifact research starts to kick in. At the cost of only 3-4 additional traits in your primary weapon you can have a second weapon that's only about 3 traits behind your main.

[Aqueous]

Arms is so bipolar on beta to the point where its funny.

You either get ridiculous burst windows where CS Procs multiple times within itself so you can attain multiple MS Shattered Defense procs or you just end up sitting there with no rage and haven't seen a CS window proc in over 30 seconds.

Pretty much exactly what I predicted when I heard about the crazy reliance on CS. This is what happens when you centre an entire spec around one ability, with said ability's availability relying on procs.

[Kirbydude65]

Pretty much exactly what I predicted when I heard about the crazy reliance on CS. This is what happens when you centre an entire spec around one ability, with said ability's availability relying on procs.

To be honest, a lot of players at the moment are being over-dramatic about the proc rate. It does feel terrible when you have to wait a full 45 seconds for the reset to occur, but those times are few and far between. Smart play with Warbreaker (our AoE CS on a 1min cooldown), should leave you with very few moments were you're actually waiting the full duration for the reset.

It needs a bit of protection, but not as much as a lot of people are suggesting.

The execute phase is probably our biggest concern, and needs something that doesn't require us to have the Legendary Mortal Strike gloves to function fluidly.

[Deleted]

Originally it was. Maybe about a month ago they retuned artifact power and the amount you get from drops. In addition to completing the artifact research mechanic, which increases the rate at which you gain artifact power.

As an example. You get your first 13 traits more or less upon reaching maximum level. To get the 14th trait the cost jumps quite a bit. So for the cost of one trait in that weapon, you could get the first 13 traits in your second weapon. This sort of leap frog effect maintains throughout various artifact levels. And also artifact research starts to kick in. At the cost of only 3-4 additional traits in your primary weapon you can have a second weapon that's only about 3 traits behind your main.

Still you are behind by a few traits, and more severely you are behind in the % damage increase progression.

[Deleted]

^Yes, as long as no fights overly favor Fury I think the best way to go is to just get Prot to ~13 to tank heroics and then dump everything into Arms up until at least trait 23, i.e Deathblow + Focus in Battle.

[Artunias]

Still you are behind by a few traits, and more severely you are behind in the % damage increase progression.

If you are a class that knows for sure you will only play one spec, then whatever I guess. But for those that it's common to have to play two specs it was a welcome change from early on.

[Deleted]

If you are a class that knows for sure you will only play one spec, then whatever I guess. But for those that it's common to have to play two specs it was a welcome change from early on.

Its not about the change, its perfectly fine. Its more about "do we really have the choice we think we have?"

[Aqueous]

To be honest, a lot of players at the moment are being over-dramatic about the proc rate. It does feel terrible when you have to wait a full 45 seconds for the reset to occur, but those times are few and far between. Smart play with Warbreaker (our AoE CS on a 1min cooldown), should leave you with very few moments were you're actually waiting the full duration for the reset.

It needs a bit of protection, but not as much as a lot of people are suggesting.

The execute phase is probably our biggest concern, and needs something that doesn't require us to have the Legendary Mortal Strike gloves to function fluidly.

Sure, there is a lot of dramatism but it's still based on genuine concerns. Exaggerating a problem that's not there is like multiplying by zero. In this case, we have a problem, it's just being ballooned a bit.

My issue with it remains the same as it was from the very beginning when we first heard about it: it's mechanically bad. I called it out the second I heard about it. Reliance on a proc for sustained use of a core ability is not good on a fundamental design level. Ever. It's not a numbers concern, it's a design concern, and any amount of number tweaking will serve only to band-aid it. I'm astounded Blizzard haven't learned from past implementations of this design concept that it simply doesn't work well and I'll truly be surprised if it lasts longer than a couple of patches in its current state.

It's fine with secondary abilities but not one that has such a dramatic effect. In fact, it could be argued CS is the ability in our arsenal that has the greatest effect. Your target taking potentially 40%+ more damage across the board should not be randomized in any way. It's too high of a % to rely on RNG and it's a problem from every perspective. It makes Warriors potentially harder to effectively balance because Blizzard will be trying to tweak numbers based on data that's filled with sharp peaks and troughs. In PvP, there's even more issues because it potentially leads to frustration on both sides: the Warrior for lacking appropriate control over their damage output and the target if they get "unlucky" and consequently wrecked. It's like Mace Stun in TBC all over again.

The two counter-arguments are:

1. The proc rate vs. effect duration is at a high enough ratio that the effect will be up often enough to level out those spikes.
2. The glyph that extends CS's effect can be used.

In both cases, however, they just serve to illustrate how pointless this mechanic is. If point 1 is true then why have it has a proc at all? And if point 2 is something alot of players end up doing then it suggests there's a problem with the base mechanic to begin with as glyphs are meant to augment already functional abilities not band-aid them.

As far as I can see the reason for this design is pretty singular: Blizzard still seem to have a raging hard-on for RNG, arguably to the point where they allow it to supplant the quality of their class mechanics design.

[Artunias]

Even at only 840 item level mine is already to 80% increased damage.

It feels balanced, until you get fucked. There's just no reason at all for it to be that long of a cooldown. Sure, it might be rare. But you're fucked when it happens, that pull is over for you.

[Yassy]

Sure, there is a lot of dramatism but it's still based on genuine concerns. Exaggerating a problem that's not there is like multiplying by zero. In this case, we have a problem, it's just being ballooned a bit.

My issue with it remains the same as it was from the very beginning when we first heard about it: it's mechanically bad. I called it out the second I heard about it. Reliance on a proc for sustained use of a core ability is not good on a fundamental design level. Ever. It's not a numbers concern, it's a design concern, and any amount of number tweaking will serve only to band-aid it. I'm astounded Blizzard haven't learned from past implementations of this design concept that it simply doesn't work well and I'll truly be surprised if it lasts longer than a couple of patches in its current state.

It's fine with secondary abilities but not one that has such a dramatic effect. In fact, it could be argued CS is the ability in our arsenal that has the greatest effect. Your target taking potentially 40%+ more damage across the board should not be randomized in any way. That's a problem from every perspective. It makes Warriors potentially harder to effectively balance because they'll be trying to tweak numbers based on data that's filled with sharp peaks and troughs. In PvP, there's even more issues because it potentially leads to frustration on both sides: the Warrior for lacking appropriate control over their damage output and the target if they get "unlucky" and consequently wrecked. It's like Mace Stun in TBC all over again.

The two counter-arguments are:

1. The proc rate vs. effect duration is at a high enough ratio that the effect will be up often enough to level out those spikes.
2. The glyph that extends CS's effect can be used.

In both cases, however, they just serve to illustrate how pointless this mechanic is. If point 1 is true then why have it has a proc at all? And if point 2 is something alot of players end up doing then it suggests there's a problem with the base mechanic to begin with as glyphs are meant to augment already functional abilities not band-aid them.

As far as I can see the implementation of this design is pretty singular: Blizzard still seem to have a boner for RNG.

It's arguable that Warrior's have more control over their damage in PVP with the inclusion of Charge resetting CS as a talent. In addition to damage being more important at times of opportunity rather than strictly Raw DPS, the Arms Warrior design functions well in PVP. It's biggest flaw is that you can easily go from 300k Mortal Strikes to 1million Mortal Strikes the last time I played, which was before the Focused Rage nerf.

The difference is that in PVE you want CS up all the time, in PVP you want it up at the right times. Unless Mana actually becomes a factor again.

[Aqueous]

It's arguable that Warrior's have more control over their damage in PVP with the inclusion of Charge resetting CS as a talent. In addition to damage being more important at times of opportunity rather than strictly Raw DPS, the Arms Warrior design functions well in PVP. It's biggest flaw is that you can easily go from 300k Mortal Strikes to 1million Mortal Strikes the last time I played, which was before the Focused Rage nerf.

The difference is that in PVE you want CS up all the time, in PVP you want it up at the right times. Unless Mana actually becomes a factor again.

You're thinking about it purely from a Warrior perspective. Having such a large range of potential damage output on an Arms Warrior is going to lead to frustration for those on the receiving end, which will likely lead to nerfs of our class. It's just not sustainable as is. It'll be another one of those paradoxical cases where Arms Warriors are both overpowered and underpowered, which is an absolute nightmare to balance out and in the past resulted in mechanics changes.

We've been here before. We've been "glass cannons" in Arena who could rip the shit out of people but also consequently be dropped like nothing. It didn't work.

Additionally, it also makes a talent more or less mandatory for effective PvP which is meant to be against Blizzard's philosophy in this expansion.

For me, again the issue is one of two things: a) CS uptime has elements of RNG. b) CS's effect is far too great.

If the CS +damage effect wasn't so huge, having its availability at the mercy of RNG wouldn't be a problem at all because it would be peripheral, which again leads me back to the argument that having core elements of design directly affected by RNG is bad booboo.

[Rafalga]

snip

totally agreed everything you said. I said this before but the extention mechanic CS had at the start of the Alpha was the way to go, they just had to cap it at a fixed value and bam its done. Just number tuning after that