Bernie Sanders Endorses Hillary Clinton for President

[Cthulhu 2020]

I don't disagree with you, and I don't dismiss the consequences. It just proves how tragic our two party system truly is. Too many people refuse or can't think outside of the "Donald Dump or Crooked Hillary" paradigm.

It's not necessarily the people's fault that our electoral system punishes any candidate that doesn't have massive support. People have been calling for electoral reform similar to a system where parties get a certain number of representatives in the house based on percentage of the votes they get.

[Orlong]

That's a huge risk to take and at what cost? Ironically, the majority of the Bernie or Bust crowd won't be seriously effected by 20+ years of a conservative majority SCOTUS. They are white liberals who are in college or generally have decent jobs. The people that will suffer are the ones on minimum wage or the groups like the LGBT community.



Here is a more recent one saying 85%:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...g-their-noses/

Are you trying to say that anyone who has a good job or is in college isnt part of the LGBT community?

[Theodarzna]

@Skroe

Depending on whether or not Hillary actually makes any effort to implement the stuff she says she has taken from Sanders, I'd say as a Sanders supporter I've won. He'd have been absolutely shit on by Republican members of congress if elected, for more than just the D next to his name, and this way I might actually get at least some of the policies I wanted without having to hear how "socialism failed" for the next 50 years. It might even leave open an option for further leftward shifting in the future.

There is your proud Hillary supporter Nixx, he makes a solid case, All the Bernie people got was that 15 dollar wage deal thus far? Maybe the college thing.

I wonder were oh' were are the proud Hillary supporters who argue she is just as Liberal as Bernie right now? Were could they have gone?

[Yvaelle]

You don't get to make a power claim that supports your ENTIRE argument aobut the utility of your vote that 60-70% of Americans don't vote, when 58% of eligible voters did in 2012, and that's pretty much the average of the last 70 years, never spiking above 64% (and it was 62% in 2008!).

I was comfortable ballparking (noted by the ? I put next to the %) precisely because it was irrelevant to the thrust of my argument, let's review:

If you refuse to vote for either shitty candidate, help fix the system by supporting a third party - rather than not voting at all. It doesn't matter which third party you support - they won't get elected - but if they start getting more support they will eventually become a more important, and perhaps in a few election cycles, viable.

Bolded text for emphasis. If, you are not going to vote, it is better to vote for a third party to help improve the system. The argument I am making is not that you are best off throwing your vote away, rather entirely, it is you are better off showing up and supporting a third party - rather than staying at home: which is why the voter turnout % is irrelevant, and certainly not, "a power claim that supports [my] ENTIRE argument".

If massaging stats is the problem of the Left, clinging to a single irrelevant piece of information and elevating it to be the singular crux in a grander topic is the equivalent problem of the Right. You would sooner write half a dozen paragraphs ranting about kids today and our lack of discipline, rather than correctly parsing the sentence you're choosing to blow out of proportion.

[Deleted]

If, you are not going to vote, it is better to vote for a third party to help improve the system. The argument I am making is not that you are best off throwing your vote away, rather entirely, it is you are better off showing up and supporting a third party - rather than staying at home: which is why the voter turnout % is irrelevant, and certainly not, "a power claim that supports [my] ENTIRE argument".

Whether staying at home or voting for a third candidate, either way you're actually helping to show the powers that be that the status quo and the way things used to work isn't going to work anymore. That's making a difference.

If you wanted to vote for Bernie Sanders, and will now "fall in line" and vote for Hillary, then you're not sending any kind of a message about a bad system. Your vote will show up as a blip only on Hillary's radar. Who you wanted to vote will be irrelevant. You'll be forever counted as a Hillary supporter. There's no "well I was a Sanders supporter but..." -option.

However, if you don't vote, you'll be decreasing the voting percentage, thus sending a message about how having shit candidates on both sides will lead to people not caring about voting. And, if you vote for a third candidate, like Jill Stein, or writing in Bernie's name if you can do that, then you will, again, be sending the message that the bigger candidates can't just waltz in and grab the other candidates' supporters without actually deserving those votes.

If Hillary loses now to Trump, after all of the dismissive bullshit from her and from the DNC, they will most likely think twice next time before just assuming they'll get those supporters.

But the only way to affect that change is not to "fall in line". And yes, as a flip side, you'll get Trump.

[Theodarzna]

You can feel free to keep your problems with Skroe between you and he.

I am curious why nobody ever defends her liberal credentials to him? A fuck ton of you swear every day she is basically Sanders in almost every way, and yet, fall silent with him? Why? Do you not really believe it yourselves?

[Yvaelle]

Everyone says vote third party to fix shit, but OK, say by some miracle you elect Gary Johnson or Jill Stein or the third party candidate of your choice.

Then what?

That miracle would never come to pass in a single election, unless Hillary and Trump both pulled off their masks and revealed themselves to be Kang and Kodos:



And even then, one of them would probably still win

Support for third parties is a better way of demonstrating discontent with the establishment choices than not voting - not voting looks like not caring - whereas third party support increases the likelihood of other voices in future debates - and that's good for everyone since it ends the same tired two-party rhetorical talking points.

[Bollocks]

I am curious why nobody ever defends her liberal credentials to him? A fuck ton of you swear every day she is basically Sanders in almost every way, and yet, fall silent with him? Why? Do you not really believe it yourselves?

Ok I'll do that. I will be the one defending Hillary's progresive stances.
- Paid parental leave
- Universal pre-K
- No student debt from public universities
- No family will have to pay more than 10% of their income for child care
Those seem pretty progressive to me.
She is also pro choice, the difference with Bernie Sanders and her is that she believes that big movements have to be done slowly. They are both progressive but Sanders is radical and ignores facts for narrative whereas Hillary chosed incremental policies that will lead to the same goals.
You need to chill and eat some pho.

[BrerBear]

Honestly skipped it when I confirmed what I suspected in the first sentence, so shoot me for that sure - I deserve that - but the second point stands that, generally, people who answer random phone surveys tend to live in old folks homes ;p

You realize, of course, that the poll you cited about Bernie supporters was also using a combination of cell and landline phones, just like the one I cited?

- - - Updated - - -

And that Pew poll they're quoting, by the way, was already addressed before. It's Democrats and Democratic-leaners, and, as we full well know, old people, since young people won't have a landline, nor will they be answering phone polls.

Here's their methodology: http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/07/methodology-74/

So 85% of the old Democrats who answered that poll will vote for Hillary, and it's highly questionable whether they voted Sanders to begin with. The vast majority of Sanders' supporters are young independents.

Ladies and gentleman, witness the formation of the echo chamber!

Sydänyö sees Yvaelle post suspiciously massaged poll methodology.
Sydänyö doesn't see me show that to be a complete falsehood because he has blocked anyone with opposing opinions.
Sydänyö now posts that same faulty rationale as something that "was already addressed before".

Bravo.

- - - Updated - - -

If Hillary loses now to Trump, after all of the dismissive bullshit from her and from the DNC, they will most likely think twice next time before just assuming they'll get those supporters.

And if Hillary wins now without them, it will show just how insignificant the Bernie or Busters really were, and how they can be safely ignored.

[Gray_Matter]

Are you trying to say that anyone who has a good job or is in college isnt part of the LGBT community?

No. Where did I say that? I said the Bernie or bust movement was made up mostly of white liberals who are either in college or have decent jobs. It's unlikely that members of the LGBT community would be part of the Bernie or Bust movement because of how a conservative SCOTUS would effect them. It's also unlikely that they are on minimum wage, because taking a chance of Trump getting elected would effect them quite badly with the minimum wage. My point is that the Bernie or Bust people don't really see a down side for themselves so it's easy for them to scream burn the house down.

[Matchles]

Third Party.

People keep telling me that voting for Gary Johnson will mean Hillary in the white house. Friends of mine who want too vote Stein are told that will put Trump in the white house. Honestly if you keep preaching that, YOU are part of the problem. People are too scared to vote third because the other shitty candidate will become president - when in fact both candidates are a douche bag turd sandwich.

It is a two party system. Read the Constitution. Here is the relevant part.

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice.

- 12th Amendment

If no one gets 270 EVs the Congress picks the president. All you can do by voting 3rd party is play spoiler. Sorry but possessing a functional knowledge of our political system does not make someone part of the problem. People SHOULD be scared to vote 3rd party. Leave the decision of who becomes president up to a body that has an approval rating lower than Herpes.

[Theodarzna]

No. Where did I say that? I said the Bernie or bust movement was made up mostly of white liberals who are either in college or have decent jobs. It's unlikely that members of the LGBT community would be part of the Bernie or Bust movement because of how a conservative SCOTUS would effect them. It's also unlikely that they are on minimum wage, because taking a chance of Trump getting elected would effect them quite badly with the minimum wage. My point is that the Bernie or Bust people don't really see a down side for themselves so it's easy for them to scream burn the house down.

Have you seen how many LGBT, Gender-Queer, ect people make up Bernie's base and your average college campus. I went to ONE Sanders rally, They are all over there, along with various people with other odor problems, closely resembling Anime Con-stank.

People know not to vote for Trump, the question is will that be dividends for Hillary? You guys make a strong case for "Trump = Hitler" but man, you know what, Skroe makes a much better case that Hillary is a warhawk conservative and is only pretending to win over rubes and liberals.

[Gray_Matter]

Have you seen how many LGBT, Gender-Queer, ect people make up Bernie's base and your average college campus. I went to ONE Sanders rally, They are all over there, along with various people with other odor problems, closely resembling Anime Con-stank.

People know not to vote for Trump, the question is will that be dividends for Hillary? You guys make a strong case for "Trump = Hitler" but man, you know what, Skroe makes a much better case that Hillary is a warhawk conservative and is only pretending to win over rubes and liberals.

You can make the argument that she is a hawk but her history on liberal issues disputes the other part of your assertion but I think we can agree to disagree there.

My point was not about his supporters. I am sure there were lots of LGBT people who were his supporters. I am speaking specifically about the Bernie or Bust crowd. It's easy to scream sticking to principles when you won't feel the impact in your personal life (e.g. Sydänyö). It's a whole other matter when the decision can have a profound effect on your life (e.g. LGBT with SCOTUS and things like a Trump veto of a minimum wage).

Bernie understands that. That's why he is supporting Clinton. Does he agree with everything she does. Definitely not. It's probably driving him nuts but he also knows that there are people out there that will get badly hurt if Trump wins.

[Theodarzna]

You can make the argument that she is a hawk but her history on liberal issues disputes the other part of your assertion but I think we can agree to disagree there.

My point was not about his supporters. I am sure there were lots of LGBT people who were his supporters. I am speaking specifically about the Bernie or Bust crowd. It's easy to scream sticking to principles when you won't feel the impact in your personal life (e.g. Sydänyö). It's a whole other matter when the decision can have a profound effect on your life (e.g. LGBT with SCOTUS and things like a Trump veto of a minimum wage).

Bernie understands that. That's why he is supporting Clinton. Does he agree with everything she does. Definitely not. It's probably driving him nuts but he also knows that there are people out there that will get badly hurt if Trump wins.

Her history on Liberal issues is shaky and seems to depend on entirely what is convenient for her.

He can support Clinton, but Clinton has not assured anyone she actually is going to do anything Liberal on that. The main reason I doubt YOU even believe she is liberal is that you have yet to argue that with her conservative supporters who firmly believe she is merely deceiving Liberals.

[Draeth]

This right here is so extremely important, and also why Bernie wouldn't run 3rd party. Option 3 was, in all honesty, the most likely outcome Clinton v Sanders v Trump and Trump has a scarily real chance of winning that vote.

Trump wouldn't win that, IMO. The Republican establishment hates him. They'd do worse, and crown Paul Ryan, or Ted Cruz, or Mitch McConnell, people who are nearly universally despised outside of the far-right loony bin but beloved by the politicians.

[Templar 331]

Well there's always 2020. >.>

I'm not voting for Hillary. Which means I'm not voting against Trump but oh well. Let this country burn. Those who want to steer us in a better direction haven't had the power to do so in 6 years. And by choosing Hillary they've shot us all in the foot. People who would vote for Trump would see this country fall because of his idiotic and childish nature and they would claim that "America is great again!!"

The best hope I have is that the Dems take Congress back in a landslide. If it's less than 3/4 of the seats nothing will get done though. At which point it'll be the same as it is now. :/

[zEmini]

It is a two party system. Read the Constitution. Here is the relevant part.

- 12th Amendment

If no one gets 270 EVs the Congress picks the president. All you can do by voting 3rd party is play spoiler. Sorry but possessing a functional knowledge of our political system does not make someone part of the problem. People SHOULD be scared to vote 3rd party. Leave the decision of who becomes president up to a body that has an approval rating lower than Herpes.

It is a flawed system and your preaching for it is another part of the problem. Third part may not win this election, but if those numbers grow we might be able too get better candidates down the road.

And if we get a 20,20,20,20,20 popular vote ... and congress appoints Trump or Hillary, you can expect a political revolution.

[Matchles]

It is a flawed system and your preaching for it is another part of the problem. Third part may not win this election, but if those numbers grow we might be able too get better candidates down the road.

And if we get a 20,20,20,20,20 popular vote ... and congress appoints Trump or Hillary, you can expect a political revolution.

No system is perfect. If you want it changed you put forth an Amendment, you don't repeatedly bang your head against the wall in hopes of it fixing itself. The reason the 3rd parties have the candidates they do is BECAUSE those people can't compete in the primaries for the GOP and Dems. Jill Stein's ceiling is somewhere around Kucinich levels. They are trying to take the easy way out by skipping the primaries (or participating in an incredibly weak primary) and going directly to the general.

There will be no political revolution in that case. There was no revolution when the Supreme Court stole the election for Bush over Gore. There was no revolution when Reagan ran further to the right than ever before (despite all the talk at the time of a liberal backlash). All this talk that things have to get so bad before people wake up is completely divorced from reality and all similar events in history. It doesn't happen, it won't happen.

[Kasierith]

It is a flawed system and your preaching for it is another part of the problem. Third part may not win this election, but if those numbers grow we might be able too get better candidates down the road.

And if we get a 20,20,20,20,20 popular vote ... and congress appoints Trump or Hillary, you can expect a political revolution.

The US really isn't set up for a political revolution. You'll get hotheads on camera, but the standard of living is far too high for the majority of people to do more than be unhappy about it. I have a good job, a good home, people I care about on both sides of the political aisle, and thus have too much invested in the current system to burn it down.

[Sierra85]

Well there's always 2020. >.>

don't they say the presidency ages you very fast cause your worried 24/7.

bernies already pretty old, he'd probs die before then anyways. not to be blunt...