[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[ShasVa]

Brewmaster Monk seems more resilient than the Vengeance Demon Hunter. I only have the former at Level 100 so far, but I've definitely noticed a difference.

Crit could be #1 stat, but I may be wrong. I do know that Gift of the Ox and Celestial Fortune work with Crit. Combined with the Gift of the Mists taent, the self-healing could be just as invaluable as the Crit stat.

[Ray3andrei]

Honestly, the stacking dodge. The problem with something like 70% dodge, as everyone has said already, is that there exists the possibility to get hit 5 times in a row. Which becomes even more dangerous if you dodged the 5 previous hits and healers haven't had to watch you for a while now. 40% stacking guarantees you will dodge at least every 4th hit, and the low base chance to dodge ensures that you will typically take the next hit, meaning healers will be used to keeping a base level of healing going on you. Plus, they will ALWAYS have breathing room to heal you up at the very minimum every 6 seconds because of this. With this model, your damage becomes very steady, which is fantastic for a tank and the reason we were having the ISB discussion before. As has been said many times, overall damage taken per second should never kill a tank, reducing that will just save some healer mana. But damage spikes, especially when unexpected, WILL kill tanks and are the most dangerous. So smoothing your damage intake becomes very useful.

Yes while this is all true and and nice, on mythic tyrant progresion when the boss can 1 shot you, the guaranteed hit WILL kill you (without other cds of course), While elusive brawler makes your damage income smoother, your damage taken will be higher, and on what imgagined just now, that would be deadly.
Consistent is what I would call Elusive brawler, it is far from reliable
While the damage smoothing is probably better on most bosses, in this situation i'd take elusive brew any day.

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It's not good, when you can't rely on it and have to prepare as if doesn't exist it's a literally worthless ability.

If you're tanking Tyrant in p3 without a cd up, you and your raid are doing it wrong. Citing a hypothetical situation that wouldn't happen if playing properly to try and prove an ability was good. Ooooookay bro. Did you literally wipe your raid on purpose on tyrant for the sake of making an rng ability seem not worthless? Or did you just do tyrant mythic long after real progression was over and simply over gear it with fully mythic gear and valor buffs? You know what happened when I progressed on Tyrant if I didn't have a cd up in p3 Tyrant mythic? I ate dirt, wouldn't matter if EB helped dodge 3 hits in a row the one that landed was going to kill me instantly. If I tried to rely on it as a CD supplement it would have literally screwed my guild over for weeks unless one attempt I got the God of all God Tier RNGS.

EB was worthless, our mastery is not the best thing ever but far from worthless. You're right there is no comparison.

Why do some people get triggerd and so defensive, I never said i relied ONLY on EB, I just said it might be better than elusive brawler in the situation I described

wouldn't matter if EB helped dodge 3 hits in a row the one that landed was going to kill me instantly

Alright take EB away and replace it with Elusive brawler, would that have helped? Yes it is damage smoothing, yes it is more consistent, but it also almost guarantees you will get hit, Elusive brew doesn't guarantee that,
Again the biggest problem I have with elusive brawler, is how it works with the base dodge of 10%. And my point still stands that it's probably the worst mastery out of all tanks in Legion

[Saiyoran]

Brewmaster Monk seems more resilient than the Vengeance Demon Hunter. I only have the former at Level 100 so far, but I've definitely noticed a difference.

Crit could be #1 stat, but I may be wrong. I do know that Gift of the Ox and Celestial Fortune work with Crit. Combined with the Gift of the Mists taent, the self-healing could be just as invaluable as the Crit stat.

For dungeons where your self healing is really strong and important, crit is probably the best.
Haste seems like its king up to a point though (somewhere around 30% you start being unable to dump energy fast enough not to cap without disregarding BoK and RJW entirely) due to brew regen since it lowers KS cd and increases # of TPs you can use, as well as lowering ISB/PB cd (?).

[fringemoo]

For dungeons where your self healing is really strong and important, crit is probably the best.
Haste seems like its king up to a point though (somewhere around 30% you start being unable to dump energy fast enough not to cap without disregarding BoK and RJW entirely) due to brew regen since it lowers KS cd and increases # of TPs you can use, as well as lowering ISB/PB cd (?).

No math, but I'm not sure capping on energy is at all relevant, so what if you can't use all the energy you regen, yes that benfit of haste goes to waste. The energy from haste is nice but not it's primary function.

The cd on KS and brews decreases, the point haste looses defensive benfit is where you can't utilise all the brew charges which I'm not sure is realistic at any achievable haste rating. With the one caveat where there is still an internal CD on using brews, you just can't spam them, I think it's around 1s, though I haven't double checked it. Even with all the anecdotal accounts saying they have all the brews they can use I'm pretty sure PB is under utilised.

As to offensive benefit, probably when you can actually spam KS on gcd, which is again not achievable.

That is not to say that other stats are worse or better, truthfully modeling ISB / PB usage is a nightmare since the APL in simcraft will have to take your haste level into account.

Simming dps though should be easier to at least find out if haste is better dps wise than other stats.

Edit: Actually if we compare the value of 33% haste vs. crit with a baseline of 0 for either (which is obviously wrong) we get that at least in terms of damage KS does, they are the same, eg. 1.33ks vs .66ks + .66ks (1ks * .66 regular hits + 1ks * 2 * .33 for crits). And since haste doesn't effect BoK or BoF it would seem crit would be better dps wise, I didn't take into account their relative rating though, I'm not sure but I think haste is generally cheaper.

[PinDrop]

Taking unmitigated hits several times in a row is what kills a tank. Avoiding that is our job. Elusive Brew, while giving you higher dodge%, does not remove this possibility. You can have 90% dodge and still take 5 large hits in a row. The chance is low, and it is unlikely, but the chance is there. With Elusive Brawler, this is guaranteed to not happen. It does not "guarantee" you will take a hit, either, as you always have your base dodge. Again, the chance of dodging at 10% is low, and unlikely, but the chance is there. Removing the possibility of a string of hits is Elusive Brawler's strength, while Elusive Brew only lowers the possibility of you taking that whole string (unless it puts you over 100%).

Elusive Brawler may, like stagger, make you take more damage overall than another tank, but removing that spike damage possibility makes it easier for healers to keep you alive, which is the point. Healer's output determines this viability, in the end. If a healer has to spam you with expensive heals and cooldowns to keep you up through stagger damage, then and only then can we question our viability/tuning. Mathematically Brewmasters should be very "safe" tanks, if played correctly, since we should have very few "oh $#!7" moments that we can't cover with CDs.

[Saiyoran]

No math, but I'm not sure capping on energy is at all relevant, so what if you can't use all the energy you regen, yes that benfit of haste goes to waste. The energy from haste is nice but not it's primary function.

The cd on KS and brews decreases, the point haste looses defensive benfit is where you can't utilise all the brew charges which I'm not sure is realistic at any achievable haste rating. With the one caveat where there is still an internal CD on using brews, you just can't spam them, I think it's around 1s, though I haven't double checked it. Even with all the anecdotal accounts saying they have all the brews they can use I'm pretty sure PB is under utilised.

As to offensive benefit, probably when you can actually spam KS on gcd, which is again not achievable.

That is not to say that other stats are worse or better, truthfully modeling ISB / PB usage is a nightmare since the APL in simcraft will have to take your haste level into account.

Simming dps though should be easier to at least find out if haste is better dps wise than other stats.

Edit: Actually if we compare the value of 33% haste vs. crit with a baseline of 0 for either (which is obviously wrong) we get that at least in terms of damage KS does, they are the same, eg. 1.33ks vs .66ks + .66ks (1ks * .66 regular hits + 1ks * 2 * .33 for crits). And since haste doesn't effect BoK or BoF it would seem crit would be better dps wise, I didn't take into account their relative rating though, I'm not sure but I think haste is generally cheaper.

That's actually a good point now that you put it that way. There isn't an attainable limit on how many PBs you can use to reduce damage if you had infinite generation so I suppose haste doesn't really lose much value. I still think you'd gain more benefit from mastery or crit at a point though, but that point may be higher than easily attainable considering haste's brew generation.

[stross01]

I never said i relied ONLY on elusive brew?, i just meant it really isn't as bad as people make it be and i just prefer it to the stacking dodge, I get that its more "reliable". but getting hit 4 times in a row with 70% chance rarely happend to me.

Imagine this, you have no guard, no expel harm, no dampen harm, basicaly no cds, on a p3 tyrant, would you rather have a 70% dodge chance? Or a stacking dodge starting from 10% and everytime you get hit you add 40%? While elusive brawler does guarantee you a dodge it also almost guarantees you will get hit.

There's really no more point in comparing them since the respective kits sre completely different, I just think that our mastery is by far the worst (i guess prot warriors come close-ish) out of all tanks

I wouldn't rely solely on Elusive Brew or Elusive Brawler, because I'm not awful.

You're also not counting the stagger possibilities, Ironskin Brew, or the immense health pool we now have. What you are counting, for reasons I may never understand, is a 100% uptime on Elusive Brew. I didn't have 100% or even 50%, maybe even 25%, uptime on Elusive Brew until farm. You won't get it without many sockets and bis gear. The realistic dodge rate on progression between the two is probably going to lie with Brawler.

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Well I don't want to interrupt you guys in your hot disscusion but is there a solid stat priority for bm so far?

I've tried a Crit/Haste build, which I found to be pretty awful in both raids and mythic 4+. You just didn't have the avoidance and the small amount of extra healing you received almost always became overhealing.

I've tried a Haste/Mastery build, which was decent, but it edged too close to just spamming Tiger Palm and Keg Smash to interest me. Other abilities started to get neglected in lieu of more brew generation.

I've tried a Mastery build with minor Haste and minor Crit. It is my most preferred. In most settings, I would avoid every second or third attack. I had all the ISB and Purifies I could ever need. It yielded the largest Ox orbs. It yielded the greatest dps result, which is situational evidence, even though I repeated the same content with the same players.

For posterity, I remind you that this is *A*N*E*C*D*O*T*A*L* evidence and the response most people will give if someone's opinion is different than theirs, 'disqualifying' it. However, out of the many, many, MANY dungeons and few raids I've done, the Mastery build feels the best.

[Ray3andrei]

I wouldn't rely solely on Elusive Brew or Elusive Brawler, because I'm not awful.

You're also not counting the stagger possibilities, Ironskin Brew, or the immense health pool we now have. What you are counting, for reasons I may never understand, is a 100% uptime on Elusive Brew. I didn't have 100% or even 50%, maybe even 25%, uptime on Elusive Brew until farm. You won't get it without many sockets and bis gear. The realistic dodge rate on progression between the two is probably going to lie with Brawler.

Curently you can easily sit at 70% uptime, sure this isn't realistic with lower ilvl and gear, but on something like tyrant where you tank half the time, you can easily build the stacks, sure not all bosses are like this, but just pointing it out.

Also smth weird i noticed, when I made a druid on the ptr, their base dodge was 22%? While monk's was 9%, i presume this is a bug?

[stross01]

Curently you can easily sit at 70% uptime, sure this isn't realistic with lower ilvl and gear, but on something like tyrant where you tank half the time, you can easily build the stacks, sure not all bosses are like this, but just pointing it out.

Also smth weird i noticed, when I made a druid on the ptr, their base dodge was 22%? While monk's was 9%, i presume this is a bug?

After getting a 795 ring, having months of farm, and having content nerfed, you can more readily pick your gear than during progression. "Easily sitting at 70%" wasn't even a remote possibility.

[Ray3andrei]

After getting a 795 ring, having months of farm, and having content nerfed, you can more readily pick your gear than during progression. "Easily sitting at 70%" wasn't even a remote possibility.

Hence the word "currently"

Been looking over my logs and when I started mythic I had around 40% to 55% uptime, keep in mind chi brew helps a ton with this

[stross01]

Hence the word "currently"

Been looking over my logs and when I started mythic I had around 40% to 55% uptime, keep in mind chi brew helps a ton with this

Having any amount of Elusive Brew right now isn't important. The content has been farm for almost 8 months. You could go with any stat priority and not see much of a difference at this point.

Could I get a link to your logs?

[Ray3andrei]

Having any amount of Elusive Brew right now isn't important. The content has been farm for almost 8 months. You could go with any stat priority and not see much of a difference at this point.

Could I get a link to your logs?

/rankings/character/11608922/latest most of progression is private, keep that in mind.

[stross01]

/rankings/character/11608922/latest most of progression is private, keep that in mind.

Your first Tyrant kill came 9-10 weeks after mine and we aren't really a progression guild.

Having multiple months of more gear may have skewed what you think the uptime on Elusive Brew was in progression. That's 5+ caches, an almost certain full set of mythic tier, the sockets involved in getting that level of crit, and two months of post ilvl-upgrades.

[Ray3andrei]

Your first Tyrant kill came 9-10 weeks after mine and we aren't really a progression guild.

Having multiple months of more gear may have skewed what you think the uptime on Elusive Brew was in progression. That's 5+ caches, an almost certain full set of mythic tier, the sockets involved in getting that level of crit, and two months of post ilvl-upgrades.

While that is true, the uptime of it can be severly improved with chi brew on fights where ascension isn't really neccesary which isnt the case with Tyrant I suppose, anyways may I see your logs as well?

[stross01]

While that is true, the uptime of it can be severly improved with chi brew on fights where ascension isn't really neccesary which isnt the case with Tyrant I suppose, anyways may I see your logs as well?

I'd rather eat a turd irl than use Chi Brew for anything but a 30-60 second speed kill.

[Ray3andrei]

I'd rather eat a turd irl than use Chi Brew for anything but a 30-60 second speed kill.

I use the class trinket, I guess you wouldn't really use it on progress

[zoukon]

Isn't dodge and parry also affected by diminishing returns? If this is the case, i would assume it is beneficial for the new mastery VS Elusive Brew.

[Ray3andrei]

Isn't dodge and parry also affected by diminishing returns? If this is the case, i would assume it is beneficial for the new mastery VS Elusive Brew.

No, it's a flat increase

[zoukon]

No, it's a flat increase

So you are saying that dodge is not affected by DR? I thought it was affected, but only calculated on the server side (so not visible to us). I was just thinking that getting your dodges spread out would minimize the overall effect of DR. I was under the impression that the reason that we dodge less now is because all tank classes are "weaker" in Legion.

[Deleted]

Defensive wise Crit and Versatility are actually not that far apart (and not much different)

400 crit rating grants 1.14% crit.

This means all your self healing is increased by 1.14% and ALL healing (again including self healing) is increased by 0.741 (1.14 * 0.65)

Edit: Considering base crit chance, this healing increase already diminishes down to 0.68% healing increase

400 vers rating grants 1% versatility

This grants 1% more self healing and 0.5% less damage taken from all sources.


Only the later part of both is really different but not really that much if you think about it. 50% less damage taken has the same effect as +100% healing recieved (if you don't consider effective health and orb generation) the first 0.5% from mastery are less that the 0.741 from crit but they also grant effective health and the heal is way more reliable from versatility (albeit again, a little bit lower).

On top of that crit has diminishing returns (reaching +100% healing taken requires more crit than -50% damage taken from versatility) while versatility actually gets better the more you have. Factoring in the base critchance (15%) and some stats on gear you will always have Versatility might just come even in numbers, while beeing way better from a tanking perspective.

Considering Damage, crit will however always fall about 15% behind versatility.

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So you are saying that dodge is not affected by DR? I thought it was affected, but only calculated on the server side (so not visible to us). I was just thinking that getting your dodges spread out would minimize the overall effect of DR. I was under the impression that the reason that we dodge less now is because all tank classes are "weaker" in Legion.

Only the dodge gains from stats are affected by diminishing returns. Stuff like "+50% dodge" from a talent or ability is always without DR