[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[ChakanDH]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah fuckin' WAT.

8 more gig's to go!

You best be making a horde DH.....

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

You best be making a horde DH.....

There's other factions? WAT.

Well, yeeeeeah, Horde DH or GTFO.

JK @Vanyali <3

[Cooper]

That's literally the only thing talents do. They force players to work harder for more reward. Otherwise we could just tie all damage into autoattacks and not bother with the "hard" stuff. I would say your opinion here is almost the exact opposite of healthy gameplay.

You would be wrong. Ideally all the talents would be balanced so that players could choose the one that appeals to them the most - the one they find the most fun. In fact, if you're going to intentionally make one talent objectively "better" than the others, THAT is when you might as well just scrap the talents because you're not offering a real choice; just one right answer and two wrong ones.

Realistically, talents will never be perfectly balanced, but that should be - and is - Blizzard's goal.

[ChakanDH]

Just putting this out there, but current sims put momentum less than 1% better than nemesis and 2.5% better than Fel eruption single target. Yes that's in a vacuum, and momentum can give more reward for multi targets, but all things considered unless you're in a bleeding edge team this isnt going to enough of a difference to really worry about.

[Sangomah]

There's other factions? WAT.

Well, yeeeeeah, Horde DH or GTFO.

JK @Vanyali <3

You are dead to me

JK (or am I -.-)

[ChakanDH]

You are dead to me

JK (or am I -.-)

All alliance must die

[Sarkol]

You would be wrong. Ideally all the talents would be balanced so that players could choose the one that appeals to them the most - the one they find the most fun. In fact, if you're going to intentionally make one talent objectively "better" than the others, THAT is when you might as well just scrap the talents because you're not offering a real choice; just one right answer and two wrong ones.

Realistically, talents will never be perfectly balanced, but that should be - and is - Blizzard's goal.

Blizzards goal is to make active talents better than passives. This is seen as recently as last build for Windwalker monks. Nerfing Chi Orbit and buffing Whirling Dragon Strike. It's absolutely the way to go. Reward more active play, while letting passive do nice, solid work if taken.

[Sangomah]

Yeah

The thing is, Momentum will net you more dps as long as you can keep an uptime higher than 55%, so the increase in damage is already rewarding better gameplay.

For me, Momentum is the make or break if I'm gonna main DH in Legion, as the other playstyles really dont appeal to me as much.

[Roshar]

I agree with this completely, but Blizzad stated, in terms of Demon Blades, that a passive talent, should be slightly lower than an active talent. I think that if Momentum is not more than 5% stronger than Nemesis, as an example, that it doesnt make a world of difference, with the actual goal being closer to 2-3%

There's a difference between passive vs active though. The Momentum tier is all actives so ideally they should be equal to one another.

[Gateway Ewok]

You would be wrong. Ideally all the talents would be balanced so that players could choose the one that appeals to them the most - the one they find the most fun.

Here is an official Blizzard quote about why you're wrong.

Demon Blades is much stronger than intended in this build; this will be corrected before live. The intended change was to increase the Fury generation to allow Demon Blades builds to use Chaos Strike more often than they had been. But the damage done by Demon Blades itself is in line with the old amount of Fury generation, and too high for the current amount. We also agree the talent shouldn't be the highest stationary DPS option on its row due to its passivity, and it will be brought into line for the row.

Even by Blizzard's standards, talents should follow the idea that more effort = more reward. Optional talents are given as an alternative to people who don't like the best playstyle or who aren't capable of handling the harder playstyle. They are intentionally balanced to be worse, as they should be, according to Blizzard.

Additionally, there is no point whatsoever in making sure each talent is perfectly balanced. As you said yourself, "Realistically, talents will never be perfectly balanced." There will always be a best and worst option. Blizzard makes the best option the one that takes more effort, or at least strives to do so.

In fact, let's take it one step further. Let's suppose that Blizzard did actually manage to balance all talents to be exactly equal in performance for every aspect of the game, whether it's PvP, AoE, ST, or questing. At that moment, what would be the point of talents? If every choice gives you the exact same result, why choose? Why present the choice at all? Talents have to be focused on providing "best" options for different circumstances. This has been the case for a while now.

Look at any Legion talent row of nearly any class. At random, we'll look at Arms Warrior. Their level 100 row is clearly not designed to be perfectly balanced in all situations. Ravager is most likely an AoE option. Opportunity Strikes is most likely a single target option. Anger Management is most likely inferior to both but gives you more control/burst, for PvP or fights like Spine/Archimonde. They aren't and shouldn't be balanced between each other in all situations, even if that were possible (which it's not.)

In fact, if you're going to intentionally make one talent objectively "better" than the others, THAT is when you might as well just scrap the talents because you're not offering a real choice; just one right answer and two wrong ones.

Lastly, this statement is not true. The reason talents are kept in when one is the "best" option is because each individual interaction between different talent loadouts is up to the player to discover. What I mean is, Blizzard doesn't tell anyone what the best option is. They allow players to naturally discover it themselves. As a result, what the players might find to be the "best" option may not actually be the best option. You can see this type of interaction often. Most recently I saw it when Blizzard was discussing Legion beta Brewmaster with the community.

As a result, you're constantly motivated to explore what may be better or worse. This gets compounded with things like tier-specific set bonuses, or certain trinkets (Soul Capacitor) which will also alter your play and talent choices. This is the gameplay that imbalanced talents provide, and it is vital to the health of the game.

[Deleted]

well i guess, its comes down to how much more dmg it is. as atm momemtum is better than nem. if played perfect. it has that 60+ uptime and nem only the 50% if i recall, so you will get better numbers atm as momentum.

tbt i dont like the talent. as its harder to play it than the other 2, and that makes the other 2 talents useless, in the form that if use momemtum u will do more dps than the other 2. and if the other 2 talents comes close or became better than momentum. then no one will play that since it require more than the other 2. why jump around like a crasy cat. when u can stand still and do more dps. they should rework momentum. but hey, just my opinion..

Even with 50% uptime momentum is still better choice, simply because of the dmg you can pump out during it, it's used for barrage or when high fury, unlike nemesis which will suffer from the fact that big part of the uptime ur also building resources, unlike during momentum.

[The Archmage]

Even with 50% uptime momentum is still better choice, simply because of the dmg you can pump out during it, it's used for barrage or when high fury, unlike nemesis which will suffer from the fact that big part of the uptime ur also building resources, unlike during momentum.

However, Momentum actually requires you A LOT of global cds on subpar abilities (damage-wise, of course) in order to activate it, while Nemesis it's just 1 global and then it's just build/spend fury on optimal abilities.

[Cooper]

Here is an official Blizzard quote about why you're wrong.



Even by Blizzard's standards, talents should follow the idea that more effort = more reward. Optional talents are given as an alternative to people who don't like the best playstyle or who aren't capable of handling the harder playstyle. They are intentionally balanced to be worse, as they should be, according to Blizzard.

That is NOT what that quote says, and especially not the part you yourself emphasized. "Brought into line for the row" means to be on par with the other talents in the row. NOT that it should be inferior.

Pressuring people to pick a particular talent, for whatever reason, does not make the game better.

[Gateway Ewok]

That is NOT what that quote says, and especially not the part you yourself emphasized. "Brought into line for the row" means to be on par with the other talents in the row. NOT that it should be inferior.

Pressuring people to pick a particular talent, for whatever reason, does not make the game better.

We also agree the talent shouldn't be the highest stationary DPS option on its row due to its passivity

Did you conveniently ignore this part?

Edit: Also, are Havoc Demon Hunters still ignoring Eye Beam for single target? The askmrrobot simulator is using it in its sims.

[Cooper]

Did you conveniently ignore this part?

I didn't ignore anything. Active versus Passive is part of balancing, no doubt, but that doesn't mean they want Demon Blades to be statistically inferior.

Take Holy Shield and Seraphim in the last row of Protection Paladin during WoD. The first is Passive, the latter Active, so Seraphim should just be better according to you. But it's not. They're pretty much even - each excels in different ways - and if you ask which you should take you're likely to get supporters for both. You might even get the odd Empowered Seals advocate.

That's balance. That allows players to choose based on preference and not spreadsheets, and that makes for a far better game than having people demand you take one talent or the other because it is "better." It'll still happen because for some reason a lot of WoW players love nothing more than telling other people what to do and feeling superior because THEY took Talent A and that stupid noob took Talent B, but that doesn't make the game better and Blizzard should not encourage such with blatantly unbalanced options.

[Sangomah]

There's a difference between passive vs active though. The Momentum tier is all actives so ideally they should be equal to one another.

Guess this might be about semantics but nemesis is not really an active.

With that in mind, i define active as an ability with a cd less than 30 seconds

[neck deep]

we now live in a world where 2 active abilities are called passive vs momentum which is actually a passive.

yes momentum requires more effort, but it's also extremely high risk for very little extra reward at it's current tuning levels single target. it will likely have no competition multi target, but that was expected all along.

i'll probably play FE single target, and momentum for anything with adds of any substantial duration.

[Sangomah]

Did you conveniently ignore this part?

Edit: Also, are Havoc Demon Hunters still ignoring Eye Beam for single target? The askmrrobot simulator is using it in its sims.

If demonic and points in chaos vision and anguish we do not cancel iirc

[dark666105]

Thing with momentum is, for FR I just go to the other side of behind the boss, no loss in dps. For VR, I either pop fel barrage while I am flying away and then FR back in or GT on my way back in (had bloodlet and MotG), or at least (ended up macroing it) using FotI to lay blades from where I VRed, that way even if you have to eat a bit of momentum by overlapping with a FR momentum you at least got something out of it.

Frankly before trying it, I was avoiding it like the plague, preferring fel eruption to it. Then they broke fel eruption and I gave nemesis a try. Nemesis didn't really feel right when I was trying to hold it for adds that would die quickly so I could maximize the efficiency of the buff and have it for whatever of that type I hit. It also felt off just slapping it on the boss and thus not having it for said adds. So I tried momentum, and after some figuring out (pool FR/VR spend) it was actually quite fun and engaging. Dare I say, more fun than before I had tried it.

[Deleted]

we now live in a world where 2 active abilities are called passive vs momentum which is actually a passive.

that depends on your definition of passive and active but it is certainly not passive in the same way demon blades is and you technically need to use an ability to get a buff unlike other passives that improves a ability.