PM is 'willing to listen to options' on Scotland

[Shadowmelded]

Scotland - 62%
London - 59%
N.Ireland - 55.8%

To me those numbers don't seem huge

Yet a 52/48 split is decisive?

is that accurate data?

Yes.

[Obelisk Kai]

Personally I feel the SNP should've waited till after BREXIT before puffing chests. Yes you may have a second referendum once we sort this important shit out first,

To be fair to the SNP, nobody really thought in their heart of hearts that the English would be insane enough to actually do it.

I guess that was us proved wrong...

[Kalis]

The SNP are in favour of an English Parliament, Scotland have less than 1% overrepresentation in Westminster and you've got Evel (which essentially bars any Scottish MP from ever becoming PM or holding high office).

Gordon Brown was PM and Scottish.

Blair was as well, but he represented an English constituency.

[Shadowmelded]

Gordon Brown was PM and Scottish.

Blair was as well, but he represented an English constituency.

Prior to Evel, yes.

[Kalis]

Prior to Evel, yes.

How does it block a Scottish PM?

[Obelisk Kai]

Having to rejoin the EU after being out would be a long drawn out process that would cost the Scots economically. Much better to try to stay in the EU from the get go.

That isn't going to happen and Nicola Sturgeon knows this. She is playing up the possibility, both to get the hopes of some Scots up as well as to appear to be doing everything possible to have both unity with the UK and membership of the EU. She doesn't want to be accused or using it as an excuse for independence come what may. She also wants to make it absolutely clear that this is a binary choice, EU or UK, by exhausting all other possibilities.

But eventually she will tell the Scots that independence is the only way to remain in the EU, and that they will have to come out before they can rejoin (thanks to Spain's veto, Spain will not tolerate an existing EU member breaking up and a piece of it being able to continue inside the EU lest it encourage the Catalans).

She will proceed for independence on that basis. And I think she will win it.

[Deleted]

That isn't going to happen and Nicola Sturgeon knows this. She is playing up the possibility, both to get the hopes of some Scots up as well as to appear to be doing everything possible to have both unity with the UK and membership of the EU. She doesn't want to be accused or using it as an excuse for independence come what may. She also wants to make it absolutely clear that this is a binary choice, EU or UK, by exhausting all other possibilities.

But eventually she will tell the Scots that independence is the only way to remain in the EU, and that they will have to come out before they can rejoin (thanks to Spain's veto, Spain will not tolerate an existing EU member breaking up and a piece of it being able to continue inside the EU.)

She will proceed for independence on that basis.

And what if Scotland votes NO again

[Shadowmelded]

How does it block a Scottish PM?

They'd essentially be a lame-duck. How could they bring forth legislation that's not under their jurisdiction?

[Deleted]

This whole "treat Scotland differently because reasons" is another example of giving unfair treatment to the rest of the UK in favour of Scotland.

So exactly like the whole treat the UK differently because reasons?

[Aggrophobic]

People within the EU administration perhaps, but what EU Governments are going to want to take on a net recipient when a major net contributor has just left? Less money to go around and more to spend? Try flogging that to voters.

More countries in the EU will benefit the voters as well. They might not feel the need for "payback" as some politicians do but still.
The EU and it's countries have nothing to lose when it comes to Scotlands independence. The UK and even Scotland might but why should the EU care at this point?

[Obelisk Kai]

And what if Scotland votes NO again

Well then it's over for a generation. But the SNP have been handed the golden opportunity haven't they?

The promises of the first referendum were betrayed, as the Scots did not receive the powers they wanted, they are leaving the EU anyway and economic chaos is coming regardless.

The referendum also showed definitively that England and Scotland have two different political cultures. They are like a long married couple whose relationship has been drained of affection and love and they just live together now out of habit. But they are increasingly getting on each other's nerves and one doesn't like the company the other wants to keep.

[Halbarad]

I keep seeing this "pro-independence majority in Holyrood" as far as I'm aware that the SNP doesn't have an absolute majority in Holyrood and rules as a minority government?

They are two seats short, so unless they get someone to back them, they can't force it themselves either.

[Obelisk Kai]

I keep seeing this "pro-independence majority in Holyrood" as far as I'm aware that the SNP doesn't have an absolute majority in Holyrood and rules as a minority government?

They are two seats short, so unless they get someone to back them, they can't force it themselves either.

The Greens are pro-independence as well and together with the SNP they constitute a small majority

[Kalis]

They'd essentially be a lame-duck. How could they bring forth legislation that's not under their jurisdiction?

How would they? They would still have full control over UK-wide legislation.

You are effectively saying that no Welsh or English representative can be PM because of Holyrood and we can have no Scottish or English PM because of the Welsh Assembly.

Only English MPs voting on English only matters is little different in theory to a devolved Parliament for England, without the unecessary expense of creating a new body, in fact it still gives slightly more power to Scottish MPs, due to how it is set up, as shown by the Sunday trading bill.

More countries in the EU will benefit the voters as well. They might not feel the need for "payback" as some politicians do but still.
The EU and it's countries have nothing to lose when it comes to Scotlands independence. The UK and even Scotland might but why should the EU care at this point?

How will it benefit? There would be no geographical benefit, minimal population benefit and there would be an economic loss.

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So exactly like the whole treat the UK differently because reasons?

What? I literally pointed out that Scotland gets favourable treatment and would not want fair representation, why you did not quote that part?

I will quote it for you...

You will never hear calls for fair treament from Scotland, because they would lose out if it was ever implemented.

[Astrowrath]

Oh they will get their referendum but it WILL be after the entire UK has left the EU

[Shadowmelded]

I keep seeing this "pro-independence majority in Holyrood" as far as I'm aware that the SNP doesn't have an absolute majority in Holyrood and rules as a minority government?

They are two seats short, so unless they get someone to back them, they can't force it themselves either.

The Greens are pro-independence. Coupled with the SNP they have a majority.

How would they? They would still have full control over UK-wide legislation.

Except they wouldn't have full control as they have no standing at committee stage and their legislation would be subject to an English veto. It would also be almost impossible for a Scottish MP to become Secretary of State for Health, Education, Speaker of the House etc... making it really difficult to build up experience in high office. Plus the PM doesn't just deal with Uk-wide legislation.

You are effectively saying that no Welsh or English representative can be PM because of Holyrood and we can have no Scottish or English PM because of the Welsh Assembly.

Incomparable as Westminster is sovereign and merely yields powers to the devolved administrations.

Only English MPs voting on English only matters is little different in theory to a devolved Parliament for England, without the unecessary expense of creating a new body, in fact it still gives slightly more power to Scottish MPs, due to how it is set up, as shown by the Sunday trading bill.

Yeah, it's not exactly the fix that England wants or needs as their power is negative (they can only veto a bill, not force a bill through). So basically Evel is useless except to create a second class of MPs and disadvantage Scottish MPs.

[Kalis]

Except they wouldn't have full control as they have no standing at committee stage and their legislation would be subject to an English veto. It would also be almost impossible for a Scottish MP to become Secretary of State for Health, Education, Speaker of the House etc... making it really difficult to build up experience in high office. Plus the PM doesn't just deal with Uk-wide legislation.


Incomparable as Westminster is sovereign and merely yields powers to the devolved administrations.

No, the problems that a Scottish MP faces in becoming PM are less than that of an English or Welsh MP.

You are inventing a problem that does not exist.

Yeah, it's not exactly the fix that England wants or needs as their power is negative (they can only veto a bill, not force a bill through). So basically Evel is useless except to create a second class of MPs and disadvantage Scottish MPs.

Scottish MPs are not disadvantaged, in fact they are more advantaged in Westminster than MPs from the three other Home Nations, both in representation and in influencing matters that do not apply in their constituency.

In order it goes Scotland>Wales>Northern Ireland> England.

The only way that Scotland can be said to be at a disadvantage is due to population size in realtion to England, which is basically a complaint against democracy.

[xChurch]

I thought the clear message they sent was more about staying in the EU than in UK perse.

[Obelisk Kai]

In order it goes Scotland>Wales>Northern Ireland> England.

If that was truly the order, the rest of us wouldn't be being dragged out of the European Union against our will. We will pay the price for English insularity.

[Shadowmelded]

No, the problems that a Scottish MP faces in becoming PM are less than that of an English or Welsh MP.

You are inventing a problem that does not exist.

An English or Welsh MP isn't excluded from amending or defending their legislation at committee stage. They'd also have no problems becoming Health or Education Secretary.

Scottish MPs are not disadvantaged, in fact they are more advantaged in Westminster than MPs from the three other Home Nations, both in representation and in influencing matters that do not apply in their constituency.

Except with EVEL they don't. As for representation, a 0.6% overrepresentation is hardly drastic.