BREAKING: Military coup in Turkey in progress! Tanks on the street, police disarmed.

[Acidbaron]

A leader with Authoritarian traits is not a keeper of a democracy regardless of how many wish to claim this in their naive world view. It is going to get only worse from now on with previously the press already dismantled, those in support of him will also soon come to regret it as only very few benefit from having such a leader in charge.

Those saying a military rule would poorer have no clue honestly, people like Tegg the democracy they claim to be such a fan of now in Turkey is democracy that has been kept by the military as there have been 3 coups in the last 100 years whenever a leader such as Erdogan tried to dismantle democracy and the separation between church and state. Which points out that each time the military stepped in, they shortly after released their hold on society. Those in favor of this so called democracy now are also going to be in favor of the punishment dealt to the people of the coup and all events following this, so in other words they are not in favor of democracy but in favor of an authoritarian regime as you have to be consistent.

[Deleted]

If Erdogan's vision for Turkey even remotely resembled a tolerant, free society with a healthy democracy, I would agree with you. Since it doesn't, I don't.

Besides that, it's factually not always better to support a democratically elected leader, particularly when the military has historically done a pretty good job of running Turkey. Almost all of their progress towards an open, free, democratic society was made under military rule.

But, as Skroe fairly points out, the world and the related powers-that-be would stand to gain little and also stand to lose little from a successful coup.

The only thing this is really going to accomplish is delaying Turkey's entry into the EU even further, though a lot of that will depend on Erdogan's immediate response to the situation. If as he likely will, Erdogan purges the military, locks down on social freedoms and generally makes his country less free and less democratic, we'll see more EU blackmail and Turkey becoming nigh unlikely to ever enter the EU. I'm not really sure what alternatives Erdogan will take aside from that, since the military purge is a given, but a lot of unemployed, potentially imprisoned people with guns and the knowhow to use them is never good for a nation.

As with most dictators, the more they attempt to hold on to power, the more they lose it. Though I honestly think his fanatics scare me more than anything Erdogan himself could do, I'm concerned that with a substantially weakened military and a rise in Erdogran-loving fanatacism we'll see nothing more than an increase in violence across the country, which of course isn't going to be of any benefit to Erdogan (or the West) attempting to hold on to power, since eventually fanatics figure out that everyone short of God is killable and they should be in charge instead of whoever is currently leading them. Especially once the economy takes a shit since noone likes to visit or invest in unstable countries.

I think you misspelled the religious fanatics. People went oustdie because the state owned religious body. ( diyet or something) called everyone to prayer at 2 in the morning. A president having the power he does thats saying the things he does is not a president.. But some sort of crazy dangerous mixture between dictator and imam/ w/e they call their religious leader

[PACOX]

None of that sounds grounded in reality. It's a democracy like it or not. You know what is worse than Erdogan? Military rule. A poorer, less tolerant, angry, less functional society is somehow better? No country wants to be like the middle east.

http://www.economist.com/http%3A/%25...rs-turkey-have

That is where these military coup bunch went wrong. People went out in the streets despite the danger.

And if this coup is anything to go by, incompetent . Half of their energy was spent trying to get people to take them seriously.

[Deleted]

And if this coup is anything to go by, incompetent . Half of their energy was spent trying to get people to take them seriously.

Yeah it was very stupid, had they gotten erdogan.. Nd they really couldve.. Then it wouldve gone well.. That being said, everything shows these are the good guys that lost.. Trying not to hurt anyone while doing the right thing is admirable.

If the eu still pushes for this turkey joining then itll be time to riot for reals

[Skroe]

Won't Edrogan use this as a convenient time to purge the Turkish army, making it rather shitty but theoretically loyal?

Probably. For their complicated relationship, Erdogan has followed a modified Putin model to a degree.

The Russian military was not particularly pro-Putin Regime until around 6 or 7 years ago. A large part of this is due to how the Russian military works.

In the US Military, your flag officer (General/Admiral) above two star is dependent upon the job. That is to say, for example, the Army Chief of Staff is a four star general by law, and anyone nominated to that post and confirmed, becomes a four star. If you aren't assigned to a position that bestows such a rank (and for lower ranking officers in the US Military, above Major, promoted with I believe two opportunities), you're retired.

The Russian military didn't work like that. Officers, particularly flag officers, lingered for years, even decades, with large staffs and redundant duties because they were powerful instiutionally. In the US (and most western countries), the number of flag officers is strictly regulated, by law, to control exactly this. Right now the US Military is shedding about 25% of it's Flag officers to account for a smaller force that has been designed since the end of the Iraq War (in other words, a better troop:flag officer ratio). For Russia, as recently as 2009, the troop:flag officer ratio was double the US, despite being much smaller.

Anyway Putin, in a rare showing of good governance, cleaned house and downsized (and continued to downsize) the Russian military leadership to be more in line with the Western model, which despite how he likes to pretend otherwise, basically is the goal. However unlike the US, Putin highly politicically organized the downsizing. The result is a military that is more regime loyal than ever. They people that kept their jobs owed them to Putin, and they are promoting pro-Regime successors and indoctrinating the armed forces with a mix of pre-regime/nationalist ideology.

Erdogan purged the military and cut down the size of the senior staff a number of years back (maybe 10?) in a corruption scandal that was probably largely a fraud on Erdogan's part. But he has not yet been able to make the military a wholly owned subsidary of the AKP has Putin has the Russian military with respect to his United Russia Party. The close links between the US, German and Turkish military (lots of officer exchanges for example, lots of oversight by the US and Germany) have largely prevented that.

Now though? We'll have to see. It'll be hard to stop that from the outside in any event. Turkey's military will be worse for it.

It's just another chapter in the Illiberal Democracy playbook being operated through.

[Synadrasa]

Guns, tanks and aircraft don't mean anything if you don't want to use them.

[Gref]

Erdogan won this one. He will simply use this to strengthen his grip on everything. Justice already belongs to him. Offices, police army everything. And his fanatics shouting all night, oppressing even more of secular turkish people. A well played scenario by erdogan.
1) no internet ban
2) he fucking calls everyone to streets.
3) friday night so stock markets won't be affected by the time on monday.
well played. turkey is no longer a modern secular country. it is run by an authoritarian islamist clown and supported by fanatics. it took 13 years so fuck up a country so beautiful into this mess. good fucking job.

[Skroe]

I think long run its best less mess is created. The current crop of middle eastern dictators have made an indescribable amount of mess. Its worse when people of a country detest their leader that religious groups spring up as political discourse is blocked.

Turkey actually seems alright in its future. Democracy is the way to go. Take it from some one in the UK post Brexit. There is a right wing swing worldwide so no surprise Erdogan exists. It doesnt sound like the coup plotters are any better though : http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkey...bridges-2016-7

The rightward siwng is partly natural and partly engineered.

The natural part is that mass migration, the faltering of the global economy as 2008 ripples onward, the long predicted (and emerging) breakdown of wellfare states worldwide has caught many center-left and center-right governments in it's wake. Fundamentally, in a globalized world were a distinct cultural identity, usuall married to a declining economic identity, is under immense stress or even failing, an idealistic-if-fictional nationalistic world view has a certain appeal.

The engineered part is that Putin's Russia is waging a worldwide campaign against the American-led international order, in conjunction with China on it's own, building a Chinese ALternative to the post-World War II system of international norms (one favorable to China). The latter is broadly undermining, but the former is specifically so. Putin's people are on the ground across Europe, the Middle East and even the United States (Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign manager, worked for Putin's favorite Ukrainian President). Putin's inner circle is directly financing far right AND far left movements, especially in France, Italy, Spain and Germany. The only unifying theme is a pro-Russian tilt and an anti-American tilt.

And all of it is built on the edifice of an illiberal democratic model. Elections, especially referendums (sound familiar), a strong nationalist leader figure, state owned enterprises and renationalization, rewriting the constitution, purging the military, etc. etc.

The Western World has been slow to counter it because I think the political elite in it cannot believe we're here again, the world destabilizing and the "end of history" delusion undermined, and have been mostly embarrassed and frustrated that things haven't worked out as they hope. What will it take to knock them out of it? A Berlin Airlift Moment. A NATO country, or US allied country, is going to have to go rogue and bail. Like France falling to the National Front in particular.

In any event, Western Liberalism is in a lot of trouble. Erdogan was an earlier comer, emerging years before the rest of the far right. But he's cut from the same cloth.

[Deleted]

On a side note: NATO operations against ISIS weren't delayed, postponed during the 'coup', nothing. That's some deafening silence and disinterest corcerning the pashas well-being.

[Skroe]

By the way everyone, the Guardian has a good run down on international reaction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...b08239dbab798f

It looks coordinated as hell by the US, EU, Germany, France, UK and previously NATO. All use the exact same phrase: supports/respects the democratically elected government / order. They never mention Erdogan, whom all have pretty lousy relations with, by name.

In other words, this is their response to Erdogan winning.

[Deleted]

Erdogan won this one. He will simply use this to strengthen his grip on everything. Justice already belongs to him. Offices, police army everything. And his fanatics shouting all night, oppressing even more of secular turkish people. A well played scenario by erdogan.
1) no internet ban
2) he fucking calls everyone to streets.
3) friday night so stock markets won't be affected by the time on monday.
well played. turkey is no longer a modern secular country. it is run by an authoritarian islamist clown and supported by fanatics. it took 13 years so fuck up a country so beautiful into this mess. good fucking job.

Yep this, im no fan of coups but it's painfull to see how hard turkey is running back in time. Crazed muslim zealots jumping on tanks at the call of khaliff erdogan. When someome like erdogan wins democracy can only be losing.

[Deleted]

the people took down the coup, that is a good feat for the turkish people, they defended what is theirs, the democracy.

The real test is how free and fair the next election will be...

[primalmatter]

By the way everyone, the Guardian has a good run down on international reaction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...b08239dbab798f

It looks coordinated as hell by the US, EU, Germany, France, UK and previously NATO. All use the exact same phrase: supports/respects the democratically elected government / order. They never mention Erdogan, whom all have pretty lousy relations with, by name.

In other words, this is their response to Erdogan winning.

Is he actually winning? Enemy air forces control the skies they opened up on a group of pro Erdogan supports all but a hour ago. They are refueling somewhere... the navy is also still in the hands of the rebel components.

The man wasn't killed but this isn't exactly going in his favor.

[Skroe]

The real test is how free and fair the next election will be...

Probably just like Russia.

Deeply flawed / stolen, but pointless, since the ruling party would have massively won in a fair election anyway.

The majority of Russians have bought into Putin's nonsense. Evidently, so have a majority of Turks with Erdogan.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" is a truism that applies even at the highest scale.

- - - Updated - - -

Is he actually winning? Enemy air forces control the skies they opened up on a group of pro Erdogan supports all but a hour ago. They are refueling somewhere... the navy is also still in the hands of the rebel components.

The man wasn't killed but this isn't exactly going in his favor.

Army units in Istanbul are mass surrendering, an Admiral has been taken into custody and apparently the rebels are out of fighters.

It looks that way. Who knows. That's all from the Guardian and BBC.

[Deleted]

The real test is how free and fair the next election will be...

There can be no election without discourse and free flow of information, turkey has neither. Singular islamic dogma. Mosques tell ppl to do stuff and they do it. It's sickening.. Mostly because it's apperant now how far turkey has already fallen. It will take so long for them to climb to where they were.

Rio secular turkey

[primalmatter]

Probably just like Russia.

Deeply flawed / stolen, but pointless, since the ruling party would have massively won in a fair election anyway.

The majority of Russians have bought into Putin's nonsense. Evidently, so have a majority of Turks with Erdogan.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" is a truism that applies even at the highest scale.

- - - Updated - - -



Army units in Istanbul are mass surrendering, an Admiral has been taken into custody and apparently the rebels are out of fighters.

It looks that way. Who knows. That's all from the Guardian and BBC.

Been watching live steamers...well least while they are not dying. Rebels still rule the skies I can't say either way on the navy unless they start shelling the city but those mass surrendering ground forces are sure mobile armed and shooting a lot for having surrendered.

[Acidbaron]

The real test is how free and fair the next election will be...

The last one wasn't, this one will openly be illegitimate there's no real reason for him now to hold up this farce.

[Skroe]

Been watching live steamers...well least while they are not dying. Rebels still rule the skies I can't say either way on the navy unless they start shelling the city but those mass surrendering ground forces are sure mobile armed and shooting a lot for having surrendered.

Eh possibly. It's certainly not over yet.

[Sunseeker]

None of that sounds grounded in reality. It's a democracy like it or not. You know what is worse than Erdogan? Military rule. A poorer, less tolerant, angry, less functional society is somehow better? No country wants to be like the middle east.

http://www.economist.com/http%3A/%25...rs-turkey-have

That is where these military coup bunch went wrong. People went out in the streets despite the danger.

Uh, it's not a democracy, for starters. And no, historically military rule has been GREAT for Turkey. Seriously, read some fucking history, my discussion with you is done until you do.

[Deleted]

Not to worried. The Turkish Military has a history of doing coups, when the Government strays to far from Secularism or starts infringing on rights. Only took them this long to get started because their Ranks have been eliminated and replaced with Pro Government Officials.