Terrorist attack in Nice France

[Deleted]

The way YOU view it makes no difference. It's nothing more than being civil and respecting international laws.
Your "short term satisfaction" claim, makes no sense whatsoever. But I guess the compass of someone advocating murdering innocent men women babies is a bit skewered.

What if being civil and respecting those international laws has to come at the expense of a given country well being? What then?
Lets take Poland here for example: We have homeless people and we cant accomadate all of them, yet we somehow must find resources for those who arent even speaking polish? Think about that.

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Why such reply?
Are you embarrassed about what you said?
Cause Kangodo summed perfectly what you want to do.

Im pretty sure I adressed how to handle sea borders.
His comment about signs in the middle of the ocean is ignorant of that.

[Deleted]

Dont need to shoot them, just send them back? Eventually people would stop attempting it if they are always sent back? They only keep doing it, because they know it freaking works.

No, they do it because there is overwhelming demand so every fisherman is turning human trafficker. Whether we send them back or not, apart from being practically impossible, will not in any way change the fact that there are people queueing up to jump on those ships.
Now, getting back on the praticality of it. How do you suggest we send them back? We have an obligation legally (and as human being), to help them if we find them adrift in the middle of the ocean on an overcrowded boat.
So what should we do? In practical terms I mean. Pick em up and then send our boats to countries like Libya? Or maybe give them food and turn them around?
Tell me, practically, what would you suggest we do?

[Forogil]

So you agree that in the last 3-4 years, since Hollande and towards the end of Sarkozy, attacks in France increased in numbers and fatalities increased esponentially?

"Agree"? That wasn't what you stated previously - and I don't agree that the increase is exponential.

And I don't agree that the number of attacks have increased massively compared to the 1980s and mid 1990s, and as indicated the increase in fatalities doesn't necessarily mean any change in attacker's motives (note that the deadliest attack of French citizens by Islamic terrorists during the 1900s was not included in the list).
Those difference are important - since if we see that we have had similar levels before we can investigate similarities; both for why it increased and why it decreased previously. It could also be that we see that the previous decreases were by necessity temporary and thus we need to find better solutions.

[Deleted]

But you get to kill random people. Come on stop being obtuse.

As crude as the idea is, he clearly does not suggest to shoot random people.

Come one, you have 25k+ posts, you have the time. List us the name of the guys who ACTUALLY killed random people all over Europe within the last 10, 12 years. We will see a pattern with the names. Go ahead, Djalil.

[Deleted]

What if being civil and respecting those international laws has to come at the expense of a given country well being? What then?
Lets take Poland here for example: We have homeless people and we cant accomadate all of them, yet we somehow must find resources for those who arent even speaking polish? Think about that.

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Im pretty sure I adressed how to handle sea borders.
His comment about signs in the middle of the ocean is ignorant of that.

There is nothing pointing at any expense that would justify shooting civilians which I remind you again, would be a crime even during war times.
We accomodated plenty of unwanted polish workers. You can do the same.

But you wont, because you're 50 years behind and are dragging Europe in this backward mess that belongs in the past century.

[minteK917]

No, they do it because there is overwhelming demand so every fisherman is turning human trafficker. Whether we send them back or not, apart from being practically impossible, will not in any way change the fact that there are people queueing up to jump on those ships.
Now, getting back on the praticality of it. How do you suggest we send them back? We have an obligation legally (and as human being), to help them if we find them adrift in the middle of the ocean on an overcrowded boat.
So what should we do? In practical terms I mean. Pick em up and then send our boats to countries like Libya? Or maybe give them food and turn them around?
Tell me, practically, what would you suggest we do?

I know its hard to understand for europeans, but you do the reversal of how we get refugees here. You process them, feed em, etc, then you take your boats and your planes and you send them were they belong. Or you keep doing what you are doing, just stop making 900 pages thread about that shit. Just make your fucking bed and sleep in it, just dont expect others to do the same.

[Deleted]

"Agree"? That wasn't what you stated previously - and I don't agree that the increase is exponential.

And I don't agree that the number of attacks have increased massively compared to the 1980s and mid 1990s, and as indicated the increase in fatalities doesn't necessarily mean any change in attacker's motives (note that the deadliest attack of French citizens by Islamic terrorists during the 1900s was not included in the list).
Those difference are important - since if we see that we have had similar levels before we can investigate similarities; both for why it increased and why it decreased previously. It could also be that we see that the previous decreases were by necessity temporary and thus we need to find better solutions.

I stated "we didnt have this kind of islamic terrorism in Europe for ages".
Which we didn't. What, you disagree?
You dont agree that the increase is exponential? We have attacks with deaths in the hundreds in the distance of a few months.

[Forogil]

Dont need to shoot them, just send them back? Eventually people would stop attempting it if they are always sent back? They only keep doing it, because they know it freaking works.

There have been plans to send them back directly; and of course plans to expedite sending them back later.
However, the reality is that they are now put in camps in south of Europe, like Greece - and they cannot go further since the borders are closed; and as a result the flow of asylum seekers has also decreased dramatically. It's amazing that so many of the anti-immigration proposals have been implemented - and so many still discuss the previous situation.

[Deleted]

There is nothing pointing at any expense that would justify shooting civilians which I remind you again, would be a crime even during war times.
We accomodated plenty of unwanted polish workers. You can do the same.

That sweet of you but that doesnt mean we all have to be like that. Your nation can do that because it can afford to do that... for now.

But you wont, because you're 50 years behind and are dragging Europe in this backward mess that belongs in the past century.

No... we just not naive and guliable.

[Deleted]

As crude as the idea is, he clearly does not suggest to shoot random people.

Come one, you have 25k+ posts, you have the time. List us the name of the guys who ACTUALLY killed random people all over Europe within the last 10, 12 years. We will see a pattern with the names. Go ahead, Djalil.

He is indeed suggesting to sink boats and shooting random people for crossing borders.
He is advocating an instantaneous death sentence for crossing the border. You think that is acceptable?
The fuck would I know?

[Forogil]

I stated "we didnt have this kind of islamic terrorism in Europe for ages".
Which we didn't. What, you disagree?

I disagree, since I don't view mid 1990s and early 1980s as that far distant from 2012.

You dont agree that the increase is exponential? We have attacks with deaths in the hundreds in the distance of a few months.

That is not an exponential increase, and the number of attacks is not that much higher than the early 1980s. The consequences are worse - but that is different from an increase in attacks.

[minteK917]

There have been plans to send them back directly; and of course plans to expedite sending them back later.
However, the reality is that they are now put in camps in south of Europe, like Greece - and they cannot go further since the borders are closed; and as a result the flow of asylum seekers has also decreased dramatically. It's amazing that so many of the anti-immigration proposals have been implemented - and so many still discuss the previous situation.

So if you guys have adequate anti immigration measure working. Why are europeans still complaing for or against them? Why is Djalil arguing that sending them back is impossible, if its what you are planning?

[Deleted]

That sweet of you but that doesnt mean we all have to be like that. Your nation can do that because it can afford to do that... for now.



No... we just not naive and guliable.

Oh... you're another REAL man in the REAL world advocating the killing of civilians. Totally reasonable.

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I disagree, since I don't view mid 1990s and early 1980s as that far distant from 2012.

That is not an exponential increase, and the number of attacks is not that much higher than the early 1980s. The consequences are worse - but that is different from an increase in attacks.

Quoted above we can see what happens when someone stubborness faces reality.
Forogil is actually arguing we aren't seeing an increase in attacks and lethality of such attacks after hundreds of people died in two attacks less than a year between each other in France only.
*shrug*

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There have been plans to send them back directly; and of course plans to expedite sending them back later.
However, the reality is that they are now put in camps in south of Europe, like Greece - and they cannot go further since the borders are closed; and as a result the flow of asylum seekers has also decreased dramatically. It's amazing that so many of the anti-immigration proposals have been implemented - and so many still discuss the previous situation.

The borders aren't closed, and while the influx from Greece decreased, the one in Italy from Libya increased. Can't really be asking those countries to carry the burden on their own.

[jugzilla]

Western Civilization and Islam don't mix. Don't worry, nothing will change for now. There have simply not been enough westerners killed to wake us up yet. I think once the Islamist's reach around 100,000 dead first worlder's a year, maybe the 1st world decides to fight back?

[Deleted]

So if you guys have adequate anti immigration measure working. Why are europeans still complaing for or against them? Why is Djalil arguing that sending them back is impossible, if its what you are planning?

Because we don't really. We don't have a long term plan in place. What we did now is give money to Turkey. Since then we noticed a decrease. Basically put, we are basing our security and border control in the hands of a country who just had a failed coup attempt and hosts refugees in the millions.
Does that sound like a stable long term plan to you?

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Western Civilization and Islam don't mix. Don't worry, nothing will change for now. There have simply not been enough westerners killed to wake us up yet. I think once the Islamist's reach around 100,000 dead first worlder's dead a year, maybe the 1st world decides to fight back?

And do what?

[minteK917]

Because we don't really. We don't have a long term plan in place. What we did now is give money to Turkey. Since then we noticed a decreased. Basically put, we are basing our security and border control in the hands of a country who just had a failed coup attempt and hosts refugees in the millions.

Then mabye, just mabye the overpaid idiots running your union, might wanna do what they are paid for and, you know, come out with a long term plan? Like i said i dont really care even if your entire continent burns in fire due to its own actions, im just tired of hearing about it. Stop talking about how awesome your union is and fucking fix your own mess, like any awesome union should be able to.

Just telling you this straight on, the european union looks like a joke in every single sovereign nation right now.

[Deleted]

Then mabye, just mabye the overpaid idiots running your union, might wanna do what they are paid for and, you know, come out with a long term plan? Like i said i dont really care even if your entire continent burns in fire due to its own actions, im just tired of hearing about it. Stop talking about how awesome your union is and fucking fix your own mess, like any awesome union should be able to.

First of all... there is nothing burning. A couple of million refugees in an entity thats 440 million strong doesnt really have the power to influence society in any meaningful way, apart maybe getting a few more kebab shops.

The only long term solution is stabilising the countries we destabilised in the last 15 years as they were fundamental for migration patterns. Iraq, Libya and Syria.
That will probably take a number of decades and it's not going to be easy.
Chances are it's not going to happen at all.

The damage has already been done and now we get to live with the consequences of this cowboy mentality we entertained in our own very backyard. That's why kicking and screaming and calling for murder of civilians is ridiculous.
What, are we going to have people calling for murder of civilians for the next 15 years?

[Slant]

In Nice case I rest my case and declare that there was nothing much that could've been much done.

Oh, congratulations, do you see the problem everyone else is seeing in the real world now? Funny now "just stop it" somehow doesn't work when you don't have the details in your plan.

[Forogil]

So if you guys have adequate anti immigration measure working. Why are europeans still complaing for or against them?

Partly because of the immigrants that arrived before the change, since they are still in Europe (that there are plans to expedite sending some back doesn't change that); and partly because they can also bring families (those rules are also changing - of course), and partly because it shows the hypocrisy of the politicians in charge: if we can have these stricter rules and closed borders this year - why was it impossible a year ago?

However, in the case of the attacks in France it is mostly people that arrived years several years ago; even though some of the attackers have been recent asylum-seekers. For France it is more complicated since parts of north Africa was French territory until after WWII with some special rules for immigration from those countries.
That is about the 2nd part - that it isn't only problem with new immigrants, but also a problem of integration of existing ones - and no-one are presenting good solutions for that; which means that the current increase of asylum-seekers and their children will become 2nd class citizens and once their life takes a less than ideal turn, they will turn to extremism - in 5-20 years, similarly as the ones behind the current attacks.

[Slant]

It's not slaughter if you put yourself in danger willingly.
And you're not a civilian if you invade illegally.

Yes, it is, actually. You may not give a care about human lives, but somehow the world in general doesn't agree with you. I'm talking like... everyone that is not a psychopath doesn't just dismiss lives like you do just now.