[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[CloudedInSanity]

Hey guys. I'm going to come chill in this thread. You all seem a lot less emo then all the Paladins right now. (Except Myta)

[Rilee0133]

You all seem a lot less emo then all the Paladins right now.

LOL
Poor holy pallies!

[Buildapanda]

Yes, sort of. Holy Pallies and MW Monks are "melee healers" now. Abilities that would wipe the melee won't target you, but ones that require you to get out of the raid for a period of time will continue to affect you. So instead of being fully immune to abilities, you're immune to the ones that would cause a raid wipe.

I see this either going one of two ways, they forget to code it properly for raids and we don't have to do any mechanics(like it is now) or they fuck it up and cause us to wipe our raid cause we have to guess which abilities target us and which don't( due to inconsistencies in how they categorize the attacks). Because I guarantee they aren't putting as much thought into it as we are, they are developers working on thousands of things and we are concerned with just a few of them in a small part of a very large game.

[Virond]

I see this either going one of two ways, they forget to code it properly for raids and we don't have to do any mechanics(like it is now) or they fuck it up and cause us to wipe our raid cause we have to guess which abilities target us and which don't( due to inconsistencies in how they categorize the attacks). Because I guarantee they aren't putting as much thought into it as we are, they are developers working on thousands of things and we are concerned with just a few of them in a small part of a very large game.

I'd like to think that for each mechanic they used to ask "do we want this to affect melee, do we want this to affect ranged, do we want this to affect healers?" Now they need to just ask one more question, the melee-healer combo. If they were designing the encounters with this in mind from the beginning it shouldn't be too tough to get it right, but I guess we'll learn pretty fast when raids open the first night.

[Buildapanda]

I'd like to think that for each mechanic they used to ask "do we want this to affect melee, do we want this to affect ranged, do we want this to affect healers?" Now they need to just ask one more question, the melee-healer combo. If they were designing the encounters with this in mind from the beginning it shouldn't be too tough to get it right, but I guess we'll learn pretty fast when raids open the first night.

I'm not worried about the first set of raids, they should be perfect as they've had years to make a design. we will see the impact more in the future when that question starts to be forgotten and new people work on different encounters. The only thing that makes me think that it will be something that is on a checkbox list of necessaries is because now that paladins get that classification there will be a much bigger playerbase dealing with that aspect of the game. With mistweavers now you hear it sometimes, and people who really know the class know we got it easy right now, and since our population is so low it was never really something we tooted our horn about because we knew it would get dealt with pretty quickly, and it seems to have been in a very fair way I believe. If I start having to run iskar fire lines out of melee though I will be pissed.

[anon5123]

So is Fistweaving just completely removed, or am I missing something? Haven't been paying attention to class development, only have PTR access.

[Tiphess]

So is Fistweaving just completely removed, or am I missing something? Haven't been paying attention to class development, only have PTR access.

from what i understand

chi-ji is the goto option on the 90 talent ever since the haste scaling change(and if you have 16.7% or + haste, else its statue i think)

5 mans:

mistwrap or lifecycles on the 45 talent
MT or FT on the 100 talent

raids:

RT all the way with few fights with MT(not sure on this one)
SotC or lifecycles on the 45 talent, but its mostly SotC iirc

correct me if im wrong i'd like to know more aswell, right now i just plan to always take SoTC+RT in raids and Mistwrap/Lifecycles and FT in dungeons(dont like MT in dungeons, but i think past a certain level it's needed in mythic dungeons)

[Gravechylde]

So is Fistweaving just completely removed, or am I missing something? Haven't been paying attention to class development, only have PTR access.

There's a talent that gives back mana from using melee abilities and another that gives you a reset of TFT when you RSK, and with those you could play that style (you are also targeted by less mechanics than other healers), but it is no longer based on eminence.

[Myta]

So is Fistweaving just completely removed, or am I missing something? Haven't been paying attention to class development, only have PTR access.

No, Fistweaving is an essential part of playing a MW as it should be.

[Supliftz]

Mistwrap is the only relevant talent in a 5 man. Suggesting to take anything else is foolish.

[Rife]

If you don't need the mana at all then Mist Wrap will be better but that's never going to happen on any content that matters.

If you're utilizing UT procs, or have 2pce, or 4pce, or legendary legs, or need to raid heal at all then Lifecycles will be better. In order for Mist Wrap to be better you would almost need to take Vivify off your bars.

Even in Sups logs where he only used Viv with UT procs and relied on Env for the majority of his healing he still would of saved enough mana to cast 12 more Env's if he took Lifecycles. Unless the 10% increased healing from Mistwrap is saving the tank from dying, which I doubt, then Lifecycles will be better by providing significantly more uptime of Env.

Mist Wrap gave Sup 52 seconds of Env for his 52 Env casts. Lifecycles would of given him 72 seconds. So even if you only use Viv with UT it's still worth taking.

I don't see 10% more healing from Mist Wrap being better than being able to blanket the tank more often with Env. Unless the tank is dying through Env+Soothing.

Soothing healing feels just as strong with or without Mist Wrap. The 10% doesn't seem significant enough to make Mist Wrap worth it. Either does Soothing while moving considering it gets interrupted so often by Roll/ReM/Viv.

[Supliftz]

But again, you need to actually spend mana on vivify to get the mana reduction on enm. In my logs i just simply didn't have the mana to match enevloping mist casts with mist wrap.

Unbuffed vivify isn't a good spell, even if it costs 20% less mana.

Mana sustain between the two talents were extremely similar. Both hard oomed at around the same time. Nothing about lifecycles suggests it would have better sustain than mistwrap, unless you had 2pc.

By the way. This is with haste stacking, meaning if your concern was mana sustain, you would drop most of your haste for crit/mastery. But judging from peachpies' mana on a 9 minute pull, i'm not even sure if this is required.

[Rife]

You're spending the mana already on UT buffed Vivifies.

I did the calculations assuming you weaved Env between the 36 casts of UT buffed Viv's you did which is probably a little optimistic.

It costs the same amount of mana to cast Enveloping 48 times and Vivify 36 times with Lifecycles as it does to cast 36 of each with Mist Wrap. Your logs show that even if Vivify is only used with UT it's still more efficient to use Lifecycles.

So in your logs here you cast:
Enveloping Mist: 52 (364 seconds)
Vivify: 36

And with Lifecycles you could of cast the following for the same mana cost:
Enveloping Mist: 64 (384 seconds)
Vivify: 36

Even with Lifecycles you're not casting Vivify any more than you were previously but you're saving enough mana from UT Vivifies alone to have a higher Enveloping uptime. I'd also argue that having more Envelopings to cast is better than have 1 extra second tacked onto the end of fewer casts. The last few seconds of Enveloping usually overheals anyway.

If you ignore UT procs and only heal with Enveloping then yea, Mist Wrap is superior but why would anyone do that?

All this is going to irrelevant soon anyway. Once 2pce and 4pce or legendary legs get brought into the equation Mist Wrap falls unequivocally behind.

[Supliftz]

That's great and all, but I've shown in logs that lifecycles mana sustain isn't actually better than mist wrap. I've also shown in logs that mistwrap's tank healing potential is higher than lifecycles.

Your theory doesn't line up with what's happening in logs.

Also my overhealing numbers with between my lifecycles and enm pull for enm were exactly the same.

[Rife]

I've shown in logs that lifecycles mana sustain isn't actually better than mist wrap.

You haven't shown that they're comparable mana conservation talents because it's literally impossible to do so. Lifecycles is a mana conservation talent. Mist Wrap is not.

Your log is a 9 minute fight but I suppose sitting on sub 20% mana for 70% of the fight isn't a big deal and thus Lifecycles isn't important.

I've also shown in logs that mistwrap's tank healing potential is higher than lifecycles.

I have no idea how you can think this. I'm not making shit up and pulling numbers out of my ass. I'm literally showing you with your own logs and a calculator that you can have more Enveloping uptime on tanks by taking Lifecycles even if you don't press Vivify for anything other than UT procs which you do in your logs.

If I look at the first 3 minutes of the log before you're sub 20% mana I can agree that Mist Wrap is better tank healing. But then I see over a minute of the fight where tanks are getting smashed and you literally don't have enough mana to cast Enveloping. One of the tanks hit 10% health @ 7:39 and you had 19k mana which is not enough to cast an Enveloping but I suppose those 12 extra Envelopings you could of cast with Lifecycles is useless because you said so?

There are many times during that log where one of the tanks is sub 30% and you don't have enough mana to cast anything.

Mist Wrap is undertuned because mana efficiency is important. Your own logs prove that.

If someone wants to refute the superiority of Lifecycles they can do it with evidence and logic. Until then I'm done with this conversation.

[anon5123]

There's a talent that gives back mana from using melee abilities and another that gives you a reset of TFT when you RSK, and with those you could play that style (you are also targeted by less mechanics than other healers), but it is no longer based on eminence.

No, Fistweaving is an essential part of playing a MW as it should be.

Hm...yeah, I see that now. A bit sad that we no longer have "dps to heal" mechanics, but this is okay I guess.

[Deleted]

can anyone explain to me why they are giving monk such a hard time with mana ?

[Supliftz]

There are many times during that log where one of the tanks is sub 30% and you don't have enough mana to cast anything.

This is honestly a combination of a lot of things. For 1, the tank damage in that group in particular was higher than normal, because the tanks themselves were taking quite a bit more damage than necessary. Basically forcing me to spam enveloping mist more than required.

Secondly, from memory, I was needlessly tft-reming which was a horrible idea for long pulls with high tank damage.

Thirdly, our ilvl was 15 ilvls lower than intended. This means that you're pretty much forced to spam the tanks a lot more than what you're intended to be. When I look at peachpies logs @850 ilvl in the instance;

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=11&spell=100

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...l=100&fight=18

You can see that not having lifecycles didn't mean he hard oom'd. That means you don't actually need lifecycles to sustain your mana bar for 10+ minutes. Besides, mana sustainability isn't actually the goal of lifecycles, the goal of lifecycles is to allow you to spam vivify into damage patterns that favor it. If you were concerned with sustainability, the only relevant talent choice is spirit of the crane.

I can agree although the tank healing numbers are pretty similar between the talents. Perhaps a better way of thinking of mistwrap vs lifecycles is "higher focused hps vs cleave hps", as like you pointed out the tank healing numbers are pretty similar.

Mist Wrap is undertuned because mana efficiency is important. Your own logs prove that.

What my logs really prove is 835 ilvl in nighthold isn't good for testing. Probably should just disregard those logs, and use logs at intended ilvl.

- - - Updated - - -

Hm...yeah, I see that now. A bit sad that we no longer have "dps to heal" mechanics, but this is okay I guess.

We do have those mechanics? You press RSK on cd, and your average renewing mist spread goes from 2-3, to 4-6.

[Virond]

I've been following the conversation regarding FW vs MW and I've looked at the talents and it seems that FW with RT will outperform FT. RT will give you, at a minimum, 2 extra TFTs every 30 seconds whereas FT will give you 1 extra (not really an extra one, but a double dose of the initial one you cast). That seems to make FW with RT a very strong choice and I don't see how MW can stand up to that. Is this wrong?

I've been following along closely because I've been thinking of playing a monk in Legion instead of a resto druid, but I'm also a raid leader and I'm concerned about spending time in melee and losing the wide view of the fight that I'm used to. Does anyone have any experience or comments about this?

[Rife]

What my logs really prove is 835 ilvl in nighthold isn't good for testing. Probably should just disregard those logs, and use logs at intended ilvl.

Well then yea, as mana becomes less of an issue Mist Wrap gets better and better. Peach's logs show how irrelevant Lifecycles becomes when mana isn't an issue.

Perhaps a better way of thinking of mistwrap vs lifecycles is "higher focused hps vs cleave hps"

Good way to look at it.