Thread: Artifact Grind

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Well it was just covered on Thursday's Q&A. Whether those quests are active or not is one thing. They only needed enough to test the system on beta.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You should just quit now then. You'd save yourself all the trauma and mental anguish a video game causes you.
    If you think there are a thousand WQ "in the bag" then man do I have a fresh copy of HalfLife 3 to sell you.

    No trauma or anguish, sorry.. I'll play a couple months and then stop paying tokens. I've been in beta 5 weeks and already can't get myself to log in. Partly I guess because I know it's goign to be gone ina few more weeks... but also because it feels grindy, boring and repetitive already.

    Tonight I reach artifact knowledge 13 of 25, I have 24 of 34 trait points in the weapon.

    Leveling was awesome! Dungeons are really good... Artifact weapon grinding via WQs... mindnumbingly boring and each point slowly getting further and further in time away. And I haven't put a single point in any of the other specs.

    Nah, I'll bail and come back after flight is achievable and the are giving the AP away for catchup.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    If you think there are a thousand WQ "in the bag" then man do I have a fresh copy of HalfLife 3 to sell you.

    No trauma or anguish, sorry.. I'll play a couple months and then stop paying tokens. I've been in beta 5 weeks and already can't get myself to log in. Partly I guess because I know it's goign to be gone ina few more weeks... but also because it feels grindy, boring and repetitive already.

    Tonight I reach artifact knowledge 13 of 25, I have 24 of 34 trait points in the weapon.

    Leveling was awesome! Dungeons are really good... Artifact weapon grinding via WQs... mindnumbingly boring and each point slowly getting further and further in time away. And I haven't put a single point in any of the other specs.

    Nah, I'll bail and come back after flight is achievable and the are giving the AP away for catchup.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    I mean I dont think they mind it, as long as you are coming back and buying legion, you are still a paying customer.

  3. #83
    I left for a year in WoD... one of perhaps millions... $15 time however many per month.. is a pretty big chunk of change.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    I left for a year in WoD... one of perhaps millions... $15 time however many per month.. is a pretty big chunk of change.
    Quite a big difference between ten thousand leaving because there is too much to do vs millions leaving because there is literally nothing to do

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    2 years of doing the exact same thing.. grinding AP? No thank you... sounds a lot like Apexis grinding.

    If doing something "won't matter much" then it's probably not worth doing.

    The "backtracking" is either they will allow total AP applicable to all 3 specs... i.e. you grind 5 mill... you can spend 5 mill in all 3 specs.

    Or they will greatly increase the AK even more.
    Let me ask this, and there is no right or wrong answer its all personal opinion.

    would you rather, play "hard" for 6 months and have BIS gear, max artifact, finish the raids you want and then just quit the game for 18 months or
    play slower pace, all the while very gradually increasing your power over 18 months repeating the same thing?

    It's clear there are people on both sides of the fence. For me personally I pay the sub whether I'm playing or not so it doesn't really matter to me, but I know there are those that kill themselves to finish the highest raid tier and then basically quit the game for a long time and move on to something else.

    these are typically the same people that don't have a lot of battle pets, they don't do a lot of PVP, they don't collect a lot of appearances, they don't max out every reputation, they don't have Lore masters. Of course there are exceptions but that seems to be the general case from the high tier raiders I know. Login, wipe wipe wipe, beat a boss, logout. That would be their ideal scenario.

    this is similar to another sports related question I ask all the time. Would you rather, have a team that Wins one championship and is then terrible for 10-20 years or one that goes to the playoffs 10 years in a row but never wins it all?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    If you think there are a thousand WQ "in the bag" then man do I have a fresh copy of HalfLife 3 to sell you.

    No trauma or anguish, sorry.. I'll play a couple months and then stop paying tokens. I've been in beta 5 weeks and already can't get myself to log in. Partly I guess because I know it's goign to be gone ina few more weeks... but also because it feels grindy, boring and repetitive already.

    Tonight I reach artifact knowledge 13 of 25, I have 24 of 34 trait points in the weapon.

    Leveling was awesome! Dungeons are really good... Artifact weapon grinding via WQs... mindnumbingly boring and each point slowly getting further and further in time away. And I haven't put a single point in any of the other specs.

    Nah, I'll bail and come back after flight is achievable and the are giving the AP away for catchup.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Excellent example of the beta ruining the game for people. If something in game feels even remotely close to grindy once you mix in the fact it is all going to vanish at any moment and people toss in the towel.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    cut
    Maybe you burnt yourself out in the beta.
    Seems like it to me.
    You put up some threads with lots of screenies for us non-beta players (which i thank you) but do you maybe think that you just absolutely hammered beta every day?
    So that now, with xpac going live soon, you have kind of 'been there, done that'?
    Nothing left to see when going live...
    just a guess, not criticising your opinion.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by middling View Post
    Let me ask this, and there is no right or wrong answer its all personal opinion.

    would you rather, play "hard" for 6 months and have BIS gear, max artifact, finish the raids you want and then just quit the game for 18 months or
    play slower pace, all the while very gradually increasing your power over 18 months repeating the same thing?

    It's clear there are people on both sides of the fence. For me personally I pay the sub whether I'm playing or not so it doesn't really matter to me, but I know there are those that kill themselves to finish the highest raid tier and then basically quit the game for a long time and move on to something else.

    these are typically the same people that don't have a lot of battle pets, they don't do a lot of PVP, they don't collect a lot of appearances, they don't max out every reputation, they don't have Lore masters. Of course there are exceptions but that seems to be the general case from the high tier raiders I know. Login, wipe wipe wipe, beat a boss, logout. That would be their ideal scenario.

    this is similar to another sports related question I ask all the time. Would you rather, have a team that Wins one championship and is then terrible for 10-20 years or one that goes to the playoffs 10 years in a row but never wins it all?
    I wanna bust for 6 months and get that tiers BiS, max out my artifact, and feel powerful, accomplished, and rewarded. Then I want a new raid tier to come out... with a new set of loot tables that required me to have already gotten mostly BiS items to overcome.

    New dungeons to challenge me outside of raids and offer incentive... maybe a few upgrades to help with the progression in the raids.

    I want to get new weapons and shiny new, cool gear that looks a little more awesome than the last tier. With different and cool set bonuses that require a little different play style or perhaps a new animation when it procs. In Legion I guess that means at least a few new relics... but they can still bring something new with them... maybe they have procs.

    When the expansion ends... I want to feel like I conquered each tier and then... start all over again with a new story and expansion.

    What I don't want? Is to spend an entire expansion grinding AP... it is essentially leveling. I prefer the gear side of advancing power, not leveling. Leveling is awesome when there is story and natural progression... but as a post-max level leveing system... yuck.

    Gear is nearly meaningless anymore.. there is no clear means of progression... and certainly no feeling of accomplishment. I don't see others in gear that is clearly from difficult content that drives me, motivates me to become better and clear myself.

    I see a bunch of clones, like worker bees or ant drones... bnuys, busy, busy grinding with nothing as a reward. They don;t even know why they are doing... then one day.. a few months into the expansion they have an epiphany... "WTF am I doing?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heeresman View Post
    Maybe you burnt yourself out in the beta.
    Seems like it to me.
    You put up some threads with lots of screenies for us non-beta players (which i thank you) but do you maybe think that you just absolutely hammered beta every day?
    So that now, with xpac going live soon, you have kind of 'been there, done that'?
    Nothing left to see when going live...
    just a guess, not criticising your opinion.
    I played for about 3 hours a an evening after work.. . and 5-6 on weekends. I don't think that is extensive... but some might. It will be about the same as I would do on live. And I suspect I will get about the same amount of "life" out of it... but there is this steeply rising curve you will hit. A feeling that you aren't going anywhere.. making progress... and a game that scales to stay at your level feels like you are never making any progress.

    Some people hate leveling, some people love it. The artifact grind is post-max level leveling with no story, no feeling of progression. The harder you work for the carrot, the further away it gets. That's not fun.. it's unrewarding and boring. An MMO needs levels and plateaus where you strive to achieve.. then do. Then enjoy the power you achieved for a while... then up ahead lies a new challenge, more dangerous than the previous.

    Even from 100-110, this expansion feels non-progressive. No feeling of accomplishment. When you hit 110 you are like "Yeah man this is awww.. umm.. well this is.. umm... the same..."

  9. #89
    i expect them to change a few things 2-3months in

  10. #90
    yes, good discussion on game design.

    For someone that played EQ before WoW. The artifact system feels like the Alternative Advancement (AA) points in EQ.

    Very small ways to continue to level indefinitely. I agree they have made gear less and less special over time.

    There used to be this big desire to get tier pieces with set bonuses. For us non raiders it was huge to have 2 or more matching items in a set. I remember it very vividly back in tier 2-3. I was lucky enough to get invited to an occasional raid and boy did that feel special.

    Now that desire is gone, replaced by other random gear that is just as good.

    I'm not looking to turn this into a "raider" vs "casual" argument either. I would be perfectly fine awarding gear to solo players after some successful challenging content.
    Time =! Reward. Here's a good example of content they should have built on. Remember the loot scenario in Mists? You find a key from a boss, that key opens a special room, that room has a ton of chests but you have limited time to grab it.

    Requires dedication, skill, additional ways to use your character.

    for me THAT was the best end game content.. If I beat some type of record I should get special rewards. This would allow you to IMPROVE over time.
    My biggest problem with WoW right now and coming up in Legion is there is no sense of skill improvement. No reason to continue to practice using my skills, work on my rotation, etc. I'm specifically talking about outside of high end raiding. The artifact power will just be given to people without much effort except time.

    This was the problem with WoD. Login click some buttons, maybe do an apexis quest that doesn't really require much effort. Logout

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Excellent example of the beta ruining the game for people. If something in game feels even remotely close to grindy once you mix in the fact it is all going to vanish at any moment and people toss in the towel.
    It didn't ruin it, I wouldn't say that. But I definitely have been getting bored of beta. But, that's the good thing, it's beta so it doesn't count, and I'm not required to keep up on personal progression to keep my raid spot. Beta helped alot with learning everything I needed to get to where I wanted to be, but now I barely even look at it. I'll be much more invested in Legion when it becomes live, because it will be permanent
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Azkial View Post
    It didn't ruin it, I wouldn't say that. But I definitely have been getting bored of beta. But, that's the good thing, it's beta so it doesn't count, and I'm not required to keep up on personal progression to keep my raid spot. Beta helped alot with learning everything I needed to get to where I wanted to be, but now I barely even look at it. I'll be much more invested in Legion when it becomes live, because it will be permanent
    That is the case for some, the person I was replying to destroyed the game for themselves playing a much less important incomplete version of the game. A sect of beta testers seem to fall to this with each expansion.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    That is the case for some, the person I was replying to destroyed the game for themselves playing a much less important incomplete version of the game. A sect of beta testers seem to fall to this with each expansion.
    Oh I can understand why. They play it as if it's the real game, instead of using it to test out stuff. I've spent my time trying out all three mage specs, 2 hunter specs, blood dk, and I'm finally set on what I'll be playing. Now I only log on for guild raid testing, just to keep ahead of the curve
    Sylvaeres-Azkial-Pailerth @Proudmoore

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    Quite a big difference between ten thousand leaving because there is too much to do vs millions leaving because there is literally nothing to do
    Except there's nothing to do in Legion too.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    I wanna bust for 6 months and get that tiers BiS, max out my artifact, and feel powerful, accomplished, and rewarded. Then I want a new raid tier to come out... with a new set of loot tables that required me to have already gotten mostly BiS items to overcome.

    New dungeons to challenge me outside of raids and offer incentive... maybe a few upgrades to help with the progression in the raids.

    I want to get new weapons and shiny new, cool gear that looks a little more awesome than the last tier. With different and cool set bonuses that require a little different play style or perhaps a new animation when it procs. In Legion I guess that means at least a few new relics... but they can still bring something new with them... maybe they have procs.

    When the expansion ends... I want to feel like I conquered each tier and then... start all over again with a new story and expansion.

    What I don't want? Is to spend an entire expansion grinding AP... it is essentially leveling. I prefer the gear side of advancing power, not leveling. Leveling is awesome when there is story and natural progression... but as a post-max level leveing system... yuck.

    Gear is nearly meaningless anymore.. there is no clear means of progression... and certainly no feeling of accomplishment. I don't see others in gear that is clearly from difficult content that drives me, motivates me to become better and clear myself.

    I see a bunch of clones, like worker bees or ant drones... bnuys, busy, busy grinding with nothing as a reward. They don;t even know why they are doing... then one day.. a few months into the expansion they have an epiphany... "WTF am I doing?"

    - - - Updated - - -



    I played for about 3 hours a an evening after work.. . and 5-6 on weekends. I don't think that is extensive... but some might. It will be about the same as I would do on live. And I suspect I will get about the same amount of "life" out of it... but there is this steeply rising curve you will hit. A feeling that you aren't going anywhere.. making progress... and a game that scales to stay at your level feels like you are never making any progress.

    Some people hate leveling, some people love it. The artifact grind is post-max level leveling with no story, no feeling of progression. The harder you work for the carrot, the further away it gets. That's not fun.. it's unrewarding and boring. An MMO needs levels and plateaus where you strive to achieve.. then do. Then enjoy the power you achieved for a while... then up ahead lies a new challenge, more dangerous than the previous.

    Even from 100-110, this expansion feels non-progressive. No feeling of accomplishment. When you hit 110 you are like "Yeah man this is awww.. umm.. well this is.. umm... the same..."
    It seems like you enjoy getting a new BIS weapon every new tier, staying with the same weapon power from the previous tier for the rest of the time. Maybe get some smaller weapon upgrades on the way to your new BIS.

    With the artifact you get the same progression, only in smaller steps, every day. If someone guaranteed you that after spending 3 months in a new tier, your new BiS weapon would have the same power as someone else's day by day upgraded artifact, would it be THAT much different?

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastkin View Post
    Except there's nothing to do in Legion too.
    You are going to have to explain how there is no content to do in legion.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    You are going to have to explain how there is no content to do in legion.
    It's the same as when you have a cereal box and it's empty. You got a few bowls out of it, but then it was just a cardboard box. Maybe cats would be entertained by it.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    You are going to have to explain how there is no content to do in legion.
    It sounds less like there's no content to do, but rather a small amount of content that's repeated too often.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilan View Post
    A players Artifact research level is far more important a determining factor than how many hours a day they can play.

    The L1 research bonus to AP gain is 25%.
    The L25 research bonus to AP gain is 24,500%.

    There is a non-linear but not quite exponential curve from L1 up to L25, which is the current research cap. And the rate of aqcuisition for the AK research is time gated. It also has a catchup mechanic built into the time gate where it becomes progressively faster to obtain AK levels over the course of the expansion.
    fuck me 25, isn't it 5 days per work order if you are doing it from the start?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by shyguybman View Post
    fuck me 25, isn't it 5 days per work order if you are doing it from the start?
    Correct.
    Meaning it'll take you around 125 days (not including leveling) to get full research.

    This entire Artifact Power BS (which is just a rehashed Paragon Leveling system) is going to be a major hindrance for anyone rerolling mid expansion or someone joining the game later on.
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