Players with PVP honor talents are smashing players without PVP honor talents

[Mafic]

Then why would the PVE player need to worry about being smashed by PVP talents?

Because it is not fun being smashed in the face when your opponent has talents unlocked and you don't?

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Because it is not fun being smashed in the face when your opponent has talents unlocked and you don't?

But fi they are a PVE player why are they doing PVP?

[wing5wong]

But fi they are a PVE player why are they doing PVP?

Because people play all aspects of this game.

[Reapocalypse]

But fi they are a PVE player why are they doing PVP?

Most PvErs i know also do some BGs while they are bored, its guaranteed that they have all PvP talents too after some time, also just because someone is "PvE" doesnt meant he cant do any PvP or has no experience in that.

[Trickname]

I don't PvP so I think I'm misunderstanding the issue here. Is the argument that someone like me should be able to step into a BG etc and be on par with someone who always plays PvP? Or is it more like someone who only PvPs 10 hours a week should be the same as someone doing it 30 hours a week?

[Turtlewithnoshell]

Most PvErs i know also do some BGs while they are bored, its guaranteed that they have all PvP talents too after some time, also just because someone is "PvE" doesnt meant he cant do any PvP or has no experience in that.

Because people play all aspects of this game.

I agree, everyone can do both, and whatever you spend the time doing, you will be rewarded for it.
The guy I was replying to: "Because it is not fun being smashed in the face when your opponent has talents unlocked and you don't?"
that's what I was disagreeing with

[pinkz]

in various posts DEVs have claimed that there will only be around a 3% difference between a PVP die hard 110 and a fresh 110 entering BGs, etc. this can be far from true and DEVs are assuming alot on predicted player activity. in Legion you must work each side PVP/PVE especially if you are on a PVP server.

the coin flips both ways for die hard PVP and PVE both side must do

- PVP'rs have to farm their artifact weapon thru PVE to ensure they have all slots filled. if they don't the PVE'r who has will enter the BG with the advantage, also PVE heros will made PVP'rs into zeroes (how it was most of MOP, over first half of WOTLK) in world PVP. artifact works in PVP or PVE. unless something has changed? the PVP talent system does not work in WPVP, only in BGs, arenas.

- PVE'rs will only have to worry about PVP talents if they plan on going into BGs, you will probably more prepared artifact wise than some PVP'rs. as for world PVP there should be no issues if you are a serious PVE'r you should outgear those who PVP under the fixed gear don't matter template system

[Snegovik]

in various posts DEVs have claimed that there will only be around a 3% difference between a PVP die hard 110 and a fresh 110 entering BGs, etc. this can be far from true and DEVs are assuming alot on predicted player activity. in Legion you must work each side PVP/PVE especially if you are on a PVP server.

I highly doubt there will be a 3% difference between R1/Glad geared pvpers and a fresh 110 lol...asp during season 4-5, its like saying there will be a 3% different between a fresh 110 and Mythic geared player, u know ?

[meob]

3% difference is BS. Taking an 80 ilvl advantage for a decently geared 110 against a fresh 110 means we're just back to 730 pvp blues against 740 pvp purples, but you can't farm purple that fast anymore and join rated right away.

730 vs 740 feral was funny, since one lies dead and the other sticks almost to 100% hp just with how tiny the margin becomes by which the 730 exceeds the 740s' selfheals/higher versa.

3% my butt.

[user8972]

Except you're forgetting that Blizz's stated intention for Legion was to "ruin the game" with making gear not matter/"Bernie Sanders welfare everyone is equal bullshit". It's always been that people had to put 'x' amount of time into grinding PvP gear (not counting Wrath) but it didn't take long for everyone to have the same BiS honor or conquest gear - AND we had a choice to decide which gear we wanted to buy.

Most smart players would get their trinkets first while saving 3500 CP until they reached the 7250 conquest requirement to buy their weapon/OH, then go for their 2pc or 4pc, then fill in remaining slots. But we had a choice.

Now it's going to be a much longer grind to RNG for gear, and for talents and Artifact - AND you'll have to get ranking into Glad/Marshall range and/or raiding Heroic and Mythic to get BiS gear. Along the way you'll get curb-stomped by those who have better RNG gear and talents, especially those specs that are OP with the early talents.

Blizz destroyed gearing and PvP not because of people like Mafic. They did it to artificially increase sub times with longer grinds and to segregate players into the Haves and Have Nots, while not spending a penny on new content except for 2 new arena maps. After 12 long years we'll have a whopping 8 arenas (/golfclap) and still just 8 BGs. That's called gouging or profit-taking at the expense of product quality and the customer.

BGs are okay, but if you play them more than arena you are a fucking noob. You don't need high rating arena gear for your shitty 1900 rbgs. Exactly the same as not needing mythic gear if you don't mythic raid.

Truly is this sense of entitlement/desperate need to be included that is killing this game.

- - - Updated - - -

Because it is not fun being smashed in the face when your opponent has talents unlocked and you don't?

Then start grinding the second it goes live if you don't want to get shit on

[Kagthul]

the PVP talent system does not work in WPVP, only in BGs, arenas.

The talents work just fine.

The templates do not apply in wPvP, meaning there will be no stat normalization. Tanks dominate World PVP in hillarious ways, because they have full PvE stats with full PvE self healing and mitigation (which is heavily nerfed in template-PvP) - and do about 90% of the damage that a pure DPS does.

[Mafic]

The talents work just fine.

The templates do not apply in wPvP, meaning there will be no stat normalization. Tanks dominate World PVP in hillarious ways, because they have full PvE stats with full PvE self healing and mitigation (which is heavily nerfed in template-PvP) - and do about 90% of the damage that a pure DPS does.

The ability of tanks to stack trinkets allow them to put out burst in hilarious ways,

I feel sorry for the tsunami of tears that will come with these stupid decisions.

[Christonya]

Oh geez I can't just queue up and be on the same level as the player that has put 100x more time into PvPing than I have? HOW HORRIFYING

Blizzard specifically said they wanted to lower the gap between players. In pvp, obtaining gear has never been the point, the point is to have a well balanced playing field to compete, that's what's fun.

This is why they've introduced stat templates, so that you arn't going to be a MILLION times stronger them some one who just hit level cap, however despite all that work and effort... The neglected the fact that honor talents and artifact traits are going to create an even bigger disparity, and pvping on fresher characters is going to be just as awful of an experience as it is on live

Simply put, their goal was to make it so that a brand new 100 and an existing 100 could fight each other and be relatively as powerful. However what they achieved was a new 100 and an existing 100 are going to have a immense gap in player power, making the barrier of entry as bad as it ever has.

[Daymanmb]

Hell they already destroyed PvP gear because of people like you. Just stop already.

This game has been shifting away from stat customization into talent customization for years and its better this way, in my opinion. Id rather shift my playstyle with a talent than with a stat, it's usually more compelling.

[Kagthul]

Blizzard specifically said they wanted to lower the gap between players. In pvp, obtaining gear has never been the point, the point is to have a well balanced playing field to compete, that's what's fun.

This is why they've introduced stat templates, so that you arn't going to be a MILLION times stronger them some one who just hit level cap, however despite all that work and effort... The neglected the fact that honor talents and artifact traits are going to create an even bigger disparity, and pvping on fresher characters is going to be just as awful of an experience as it is on live

Simply put, their goal was to make it so that a brand new 100 and an existing 100 could fight each other and be relatively as powerful. However what they achieved was a new 100 and an existing 100 are going to have a immense gap in player power, making the barrier of entry as bad as it ever has.

... ding ding ding. We have a winner.

[Caolela]

BGs are okay, but if you play them more than arena you are a fucking noob. You don't need high rating arena gear for your shitty 1900 rbgs. Exactly the same as not needing mythic gear if you don't mythic raid.

Truly is this sense of entitlement/desperate need to be included that is killing this game.

I'd argue that all else being equal, rated BGs are indeed more difficult than arenas. There is a larger strategy/objective involved, exponentially more comp combinations, and more enemies to deal with than just a simple deathmatch with 2 or 3 other players and when to pillar hump. In BGs you have to know the specs you're up against just like arenas, AND deathmatch them, AND work map objectives at the same time. But that's another topic.

Where in the game does any gear say it's "high rating arena gear"?? Arena players are doing the same thing as RBG - fighting players of (supposedly) increasing difficultly as they rank up. News for you: arena players are not special snowflakes, nor are they inherently better players than RBG'ers.

You need to get over your sense of entitlement and thinking you're special. You aren't.

Also, what metric decides when someone is "good enough" in either format to merit exclusive top gear? With a shitty and skewed CR/MMR system, what magic number should that be...1800, 2000, 2200, 2400?

But with all that said, this is not about arena vs. RBG players.

At the bottom of it all as many of us know - due to rampant cheating and carries/pilots in all PvP - ranks/CRs mean virtually nothing. The ladders for both formats are actually a bad fucking joke. So in Legion you can scam your way to the best gear and always have that advantage over legit players. It will encourage MORE asshattery, not less.

If Player A earned his equal gear legit the same as Player B, that's not "entitlement". RNG drops is not earning gear, it's getting lucky like the WoD 740 Accolade trinkets.

Your comparison to Mythic raiding is equally foolish. Heroic raid gear is generally suitable to start against Mythic content because the mobs/bosses are always the same; as you gear up eventually you can farm the highest content. Obviously PvP doesn't work that way.

You don't give the winners of the last one or two Olympics the best equipment, while any challengers who come along get inferior equipment and expect them to overcome that experience gap and gear. It's the same in any competitive sport.

If the guys who think they're special are indeed great players (w/o cheats, hacks, bots, carries) then they don't need better ilvl gear than the other 80-85%. THAT is the real entitlement mindset going on here.

[Nadiru]

I've yet to get an answer to the following question:

Why are PvPers the only ones who have to have a notable detriment to gain rewards?

Because people aren't monsters, so there's no way to buff them vs you, so the only other viable alternatives are to make unlimited Honor Levels, which necessitates creating a massive grind for relatively few rewards, or create a prestige system, which nerfs you but maintains a grind which constantly increases your power while giving you a reward for resetting.

[melodramocracy]

Oh geez I can't just queue up and be on the same level as the player that has put 100x more time into PvPing than I have? HOW HORRIFYING

Could you imagine if someone said this, but for PvE instead? "Why can't I mythic raid with dungeon blues? Is this the future of WoW PvE!?! Why have such a disparity for players to overcome if the goal is to have more players experience more content?"

Honor talents don't even take long to get anyways.

Because PvE is cooperative, PvP is competitive.

[Bethrezen]

This is a good change.

[Illiterate]

Player A steps into a battleground and promptly gets his ass kicked by Player B who has full honor talents.

Player A: "Grrrr! Not fair! One day I will be just as strong! Must keep grinding that honor!"
Player B: "Hahaha, I own noobs. This game is very fun. I will keep playing."

Working as intended.

More like:
Player A: Fuck that. This game is shit.